17-06-2002 20:12									#211
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You shouldn't be running a food ring between cities so far apart that you'd have three interruptions to rail service using GoTo. Ideally the cities would only be 5 tiles apart (touching radii) so that roads alone would keep continuity of food freight growth.

For commodity trading arrival in one turn is not essential, but it may help with µmgmt (not having to remember "Where was this freight going?").

	17-06-2002 20:22									#212
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow You shouldn't be running a food ring between cities so far apart that you'd have three interruptions to rail service using GoTo. Ideally the cities would only be 5 tiles apart (touching radii) so that roads alone would keep continuity of food freight growth.

....where did I leave my brain...
we have the main continent( [1]), the one north ( [2] ) and then the 2 other islands ( [3] and [4] )

quote: For commodity trading arrival in one turn is not essential, but it may help with µmgmt (not having to remember "Where was this freight going?").

no but it's easiest to keep track of all those caravans supplying gold so I can rushbuild my cities to the level needed as fast as possible.
(have you taken a look at the big continent? using railroads I can get a caravan from Madrid(other continent) to Hamburg in 1 turn...in the mean while I get 3 or 4 times this message: "Long unit move.Do you want to continue??" )

Shade

	18-06-2002 10:41									#213
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I prefer sending freight via air mail
I send them by airport to other continents and islands.
Sometimes I earned more than 2700g for oil. Both cities should have superhighways.

	18-06-2002 12:40									#214
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quote: Originally posted by ramses II. I prefer sending freight via air mail

me to, but that only goes for 50% of the cities you have with airports...

Shade

	18-06-2002 19:56									#215
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you don't know the fundamentals. You should hve all your cities down.

	18-06-2002 21:57									#216
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quote: Originally posted by GP you don't know the fundamentals. You should have all your cities down.

29/5/2002

quote: Are you max cities yet? Isn't population the key score vector. Shouldn't you just concentrate on food?

31/5/2002

quote: Shade, you oughta lay down the extra cities, ASAP. You can terrain modify later.

11/6/2002

quote: How many cities are down? Better to lay down cities and than improve versus improving prior to laying down city. (The reason is that you leave a square unworked if you develop the city prior to founding it.)

12/6/2002

quote: how many cities do you have?

12/6/2002

quote: Sometimes you act like someone who doesn't know that much about civ games. Why don't you have all your city sites founded?

13/6/2002

quote: Shah-day. YOu didn't even know what a zoo city was. You took forever to conquer the AI. You STILL don't have all your cities, down. Come on!!!

14/6/2002

quote: "fundamentals, man, fundamentals"

16/6/2002

quote: Shade, why are you railroading squares that don't need a RR, when you don't ahve all your cities down? That makes no sense.

man you must be bored...
always saying the same thing

Shade

	18-06-2002 22:08									#217
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But he has a point, man. If you put down a city early, you'll have more turns to maximize the population. Even if you have bad terrain around most of your cities, you can still use food caravans to get them to the maximum size, provided that you have enough turns.

	19-06-2002 02:03									#218
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quote: Originally posted by Xin Yu But he has a point, man. If you put down a city early, you'll have more turns to maximize the population. Even if you have bad terrain around most of your cities, you can still use food caravans to get them to the maximum size, provided that you have enough turns.

he has a point,yes,but what's the use of just repeating it over and over again.
In retrospect there are many things I should have done different,I know, but just playing a game to win or playing to max out a score are different things. Maybe GP has a lot of experiance playing the last one, for me it was a first.

Also this game is near it's end(turnwise), and I think it might be finished before the end of july.
If GP is up to it, I would propose a challenge:
We both go on a recordquest(someone with more experience in this field--> Rah or Ming can provide a "good" startgame/map so there will be no arguing afterward that the scoredifference is caused by a different map,can still be discussed), we play untill we die of boredom/give up/run out of turns/ reach the max score >39k...no matter how long it takes(there is no hurry).
(and if there other ppl who are interested they can also join in...the more competition the better)
Isn't this a better idea then just to keep b*tchfighting over when wich city should have been build?...

Shade

	19-06-2002 02:17									#219
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quote: Originally posted by shade (someone with more experience in this field--> Rah or Ming can provide a "good" startgame/map so there will be no arguing afterward that the scoredifference is caused by a different map,can still be discussed),

The only thing that matters on the map is that it's big enough to hold 255 cities with no overlap. Everything else can be terraformed by the end. You don't need experts for that. Just agree on a size and have it.

Why do I think GP will be unable to find the time to participate?

Why would you want to finish one just to start a new one. Pure madness

RAH

	19-06-2002 02:23									#220
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quote: Originally posted by rah The only thing that matters on the map is that it's big enough to hold 255 cities with no overlap. RAH

Using the food caravan trick... even overlap doesn't really matter. Just that you have the max number of cities...

And yes rah.. PURE MADNESS!

	19-06-2002 02:24									#221
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Shade, I bit my tongue for a while, but eventually got frustrated. I very much got the impresssion (even a year ago) that you didn't understand the basics. Things that you could learn just from reading these boards. I tried to keep my mouth shut, but than I just gave in to my evil, harsh side.

	19-06-2002 02:44									#222
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quote: Originally posted by GP Shade, I bit my tongue for a while, but eventually got frustrated. I very much got the impresssion (even a year ago) that you didn't understand the basics. Things that you could learn just from reading these boards. I tried to keep my mouth shut, but than I just gave in to my evil, harsh side.

well, that's something you keep repeating: I need to think of the fundamentals...(whatever these are is never mentioned, but that's probably because it are fundamentals?)
Correct me if I'm wrong but these are the 3things that basicly annoyed you:
*I didn't kill the AI immediatly
(my goal--> the more cities they build the less I have to build)
*roads
there even was some discussion about it going on lattely(in an other thread) if the roads outside the city-radius have effect or not...(some say yes,other no...)
*255cities
ok here you are right, I should have had them already ... but when you have already 200 cities and you finish 1,5h-2h micromanaging you really don't want to build many new cities soon,especially when they will need much care immediatly if you don't want them to destroy you.
(anything I missed?)

quote: Why would you want to finish one just to start a new one. Pure madness

I'm just predicting it will be finished by then, ~35 turns + no school .

Shade

	19-06-2002 02:56									#223
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You frustrate me, Shade. Makes me want to push you over.

	19-06-2002 04:47									#224
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Ming: Overlapped cities will reduce happy faces thus reduce your score. Only workers can be made happy.

	19-06-2002 07:16									#225
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GP 14-06-2002 "fundamentals, man, fundamentals" was quoting me.

I was referring to road & rail bonuses on trade routes. While there has been some debate lately you may notice that it is resolved. Some other factor masked the road & rail bonus in the results that Thoddy was talking about.

About not killing the AIs, they often choose lousy city locations.

Xin, is Dem the only choice? Is the Fundies penalty too steep to be countered with trade bonuses for a record attempt? After all, each FT is only 5 points.

	19-06-2002 11:32									#226
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GP, if instead of ranting you'd been playing, you should be the record holder by now. Maybe that Shade didn't do anything by the Book, or at least not your Book, but I think his attempt was brave and interesting.
Many good topics were adressed in this thread

	19-06-2002 17:19									#227
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow About not killing the AIs, they often choose lousy city locations.

How true. But with time and a lot of engineers, it really doesn't matter. But bigger concern is time and resources. The longer you keep them around the more TIME it takes to destroy them. You have to spend way too much time micromanaging cities. Having to worry about what the ai is doing just adds to it. And once you've set up the AI zoo city properly surrounded, you can go ahead and disband MOST of your units in areas that don't have any free areas where barbs will form.

The faster you get your cities down also eliminates a little of the micro-management. You can allow them to build some of the improvements they will need without rush building them.

The biggest opponents in a record game are time and boredom. Your focus should be against these opponents as quickly as possible.

RAH

XIN, good point on the overlap, I try to avoid all overlap for that reason.

Straybow, caravans can generate the science you need in Fundy, (right up to the point where the trade bonuses fall off), By then the AI should already have been Zooified. Then there's no reason not to be in Democracy, since there will be no reason to have any troops out and moving around, or having excessive support problems. A few fighters spread around will take care of any approaching barb ships. But I like to get into demo as soon as possible. I'll use communism for the period I'm finishing off the AI.

	19-06-2002 19:40									#228
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Straybow, fundi is fine except that you don't have the WLTKD growth and you have to keep cities celebrate in order to get the same bonus for each trade. If the cities don't celebrate they'll have only 1 trade per grass square instead of 3.

	19-06-2002 21:16									#229
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quote: Originally posted by Julius Brenzaida GP, if instead of ranting you'd been playing, you should be the record holder by now. Maybe that Shade didn't do anything by the Book, or at least not your Book, but I think his attempt was brave and interesting. Many good topics were adressed in this thread

Stop trying to defend those that I am bullying. He annoys me.

	19-06-2002 22:04									#230
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quote: Originally posted by Xin Yu Ming: Overlapped cities will reduce happy faces thus reduce your score. Only workers can be made happy.

I understand... However, if somebody is just trying to beat the record (20 - 25K range), and not go for the max possible score, it doesn't make that much of a difference.

	20-06-2002 11:05									#231
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Xin: Yeah, I forgot that Superhwy is +50% and not +1. Big difference in end effect. You end up needing just as much lux to celebrate as Dem needs to fix unhappies and angries, while 9g/city from Temples, Cathedrals via Mike's, and Coliseums doesn't help that much.

rah: Bad locations like radii with several water tiles but none touching the city square (thus no Harbor allowed), or one tile away from the specials sweet spot, etc. The player knows that the city always gets a free shield and will settle an empty grass in preference to shield grass given the choice. Of course the AI will never start a mine before settling a hill tile.

	20-06-2002 18:09									#232
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Yeah, too much ocean without being on it, forgot about that one. One square away from a special, that's another city, unless the AI crammed them in. But if they do that, I'll dismantle a city or two.

RAH

	20-06-2002 19:01									#233
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O God, OGod, OGodOGodOGod… this must be what it's like going nuts… I'm hearing voices saying, "It can't be so bad. Go ahead, give it a try."

	20-06-2002 19:56									#234
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow O God, OGod, OGodOGodOGod… this must be what it's like going nuts… I'm hearing voices saying, "It can't be so bad. Go ahead, give it a try."

Why not? Just be sure you post about it around here so GP can make fun of you......errr, I mean make recommendations.

RAH

What good have the little voices ever influenced in History?

	20-06-2002 21:20									#235
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Straybow, both democracy and fundi needs half of the citizens happy to maintain content/happy status for a city, so the costs are the same. Fundi has some cash from temples, etc. but that's minor. The benifit of fundi is mostly due to the low cost for rushing caravans (you can build fanatics under fundi, compare to starting form a 30 shield unit, you save 65 golds per one-turn rush; compare to starting from a 40 shield improvement, you save 40 golds per one-turn rush). So unless you do not have enough improvements to make your citizens happy or you want to grow your cities using WLTKD, fundi is better than dem.

	21-06-2002 05:25									#236
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If only workers can be happy, how can you make a city over 40 celebrate? That would be the killer drawback for Fundies.

	21-06-2002 23:58									#237
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow If only workers can be happy, how can you make a city over 40 celebrate? That would be the killer drawback for Fundies.

Not...
but by then you will most of the time already be in negative foodproduction...
(what would be max? 21x4 + 4x2 =92...this is 17 farm-grasland+4 oasis(6 food when farmed???)...this would give you size 46...(and barely production))

PS listen to the little voices in you head...

Shade,radiating over 4887.5 Bequerel ...

	22-06-2002 00:39									#238
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Straybow, you are right. But you can have some cities wait at size 36 or so for a while, then change to dem and use food caravans to grow them simultaneously.

	24-06-2002 03:14									#239
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you are insane....how long is each turn taking at this point if you don't mind me asking?

	24-06-2002 06:04									#240
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quote: Originally posted by War4ever you are insane....how long is each turn taking at this point if you don't mind me asking?

I guess something from 1 to 2 h...This really is getting beter, I get through the city-managing in something like 25 min. (while 10 turns ago this was >45min at high speed decisionmaking, it takes about 1min when holding the enter-key down ...)...

Shade