19-10-2001 23:48									#31
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Viking In real life, stealing technology is a MAJOR part of espionage.

Stealing company/product-related design & know-how secrets is one thing. But how to one "steal" civilization & mankind-progressive kind of knowledge, like monoteism, literature, education, theory of gravity, nationalism and so forth?

Stealing these kind of "techs" by a single spy-unit (or spy manager-based mission), is simply out-of-scale.

	20-10-2001 00:00									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Pembleton At least respond to my whole post instead of taking a quote out of context and responding to that, distorting the meaning of what I was saying. And guess what? Stealing a tech is not reality.

Indeed?

quote: And your endless whining has just put you as the honorary third person on my ignore list.

I will take it in my stride, and try to carry on.

And if they knock out my single most favourite subgame for, I think, silly PC reasons, I am entitled to whine about it as much as I want to.

Some people were -understandably- angry about no MP, I am angry about no more real espionage options.

As it stands, no one will make espionage his #1 priority, even for only a time period. But that *should* *be* *an* *option*, just like it is a viable option to concentrate on culture, trade or war.

	20-10-2001 00:06									#33
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I think that stealing espionage was too easy and it allowed other CIVS or yourself to catch up too easily. At least espionage is now a little less potent. I'm happy with it.

The thing is... will I use it now? I'm not sure.

	20-10-2001 00:09									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Ralf But how to one "steal" civilization & mankind-progressive kind of knowledge, like monoteism, literature, education, theory of gravity, nationalism and so forth? Stealing these kind of "techs" by a single spy-unit (or spy manager-based mission), is simply out-of-scale.

I see your point.

But in real life, you wouldn´t need to steal those "techs" even once. Once invented, they would simply spread, and soon everybody would have them, even without spies. But that is not the case in Civ, therefore the need for spies.

	20-10-2001 00:10									#35
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It's obviously a little late to make suggestions for the game, but they could have made peace-time options and war-time options for spies.

During peace-time you would be allowed to, or it would be easier to, steal technology or portions of technology, among other things.

During war-time you would have the option of destroying terrain improvements and city infrastructure.

Maybe they'll consider more options for the expansion pack?

Regards.

	20-10-2001 01:22									#36
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I was happy to find out that the espionage and air mission post on civ3.com was in response to my e-mail

I think that espionage in the past was unbalanced but it was sometimes very difficult to spies into cities. Cince you now no longer need to waste production and time buiding spies and then moving them into cities (since espionage is now on one of the adviser screens) the potential for more unbalance is greater.

Having said that, I was a tad dissappointed as well and would have like to seen an infiltrate city option which would allow you to click on an enemy city and find out its production, growth, and improvements-- using espionage for recon activity is perhaps the most useful funciton of spying, INTEL

I would have liked there to be more sabotage actions and perhaps an assasinate leader option as well (with serious global consequences even if you fail)

	20-10-2001 01:38									#37
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C'mon, how often did any of you try to blow anything up other than the city walls? And how likely is it that an agent or group of agents could bring down the city's walls? I won't miss it much.

	20-10-2001 02:57									#38
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Propaganda is to use it against annother country. But it's a lot easier (and more used) to make propaganda in your own country than to make propaganda in annother country against the country itself!

Secondly, steeling tech is off. I agree it shouldn't be easy to steel a tech, but put it off is annother thing... Sometimes you can get more advanced in a tech, without necessarily having it discovered entirey. China, I think did stole some techs from USA for exemple.

	20-10-2001 03:11									#39
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quote: Originally posted by korn469 but i agree why no blow up building? or even more important, incite riots maybe they didn't list everything...or if they did maybe they will add in other stuff later

Do spies in real life blow up buildings and incite riots at an alarming rate? I don't think so. And please don't mention 11-9.

As for adding stuff later.. what would have to be in an expansion pack, but I frankly don't see it happening.

It would be real cool to be able to lots of stuff with spies.. but what do they do in real life? There are thousands of them around the world, but you don't hear about them very often. That's because they're spies, so they... spy. Try precision bombing for destruction of buildings.


Fred

	20-10-2001 03:13									#40
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quote: But that is real life. Welcome to reality!

when was the last time you saw a person dreesed like this walk into the pentagon and steal stealth technology there is a difference between realism and reality.

	20-10-2001 03:21									#41
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and i also dont believe that steal tech will be missed with the advanced negotiating you should be able to trade fo a tech you want but you may have to give something up that is of value to you (perhaps a city)

	20-10-2001 03:51									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Fredric Drum Try precision bombing for destruction of buildings.

Point well made...although it won't come as a surprise to who did it

	20-10-2001 04:12									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Gryphon when was the last time you saw a person dreesed like this walk into the pentagon and steal stealth technology there is a difference between realism and reality.

When was that last time you saw some Apolytoner say that he thaught steeling a technology was as you're saying here?


If you doubt that steeling technologies exist in reality, I'd be surprised. China did stole, and also some other countries. But it isn't an easy thing, and it's really not a one try, one get, as we did with a spy (which represented many spies). It's done with time and orchestration, which could permit better the present spy system (to which I say bienvenido).

	20-10-2001 04:33									#44
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That list SUCKS! how do you gain extra techs when you are behind? why cant you poison water supply or demolish buildings...this REALLY SUCKS!!!

it better be editable in the editor or these options found somewhere else (other than just using advanced bombing!)

	20-10-2001 04:41									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Steal World Map (reveals what an enemy knows about the world)

Cool another of my civ3 wishlist items included

That leaves basically jsut MP not included that I asked for

	20-10-2001 04:42									#46
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quote: When was that last time you saw some Apolytoner say that he thaught steeling a technology was as you're saying here?

i'm sorry I dont understand what your saying really.

quote: If you doubt that steeling technologies exist in reality, I'd be surprised. China did stole, and also some other countries. But it isn't an easy thing, and it's really not a one try, one get, as we did with a spy (which represented many spies). It's done with time and orchestration, which could permit better the present spy system (to which I say bienvenido).

I dont really get you here either, if your trying to explain real life espionage, I get it, and if your trying to expalin civ 2 espionage i get that too,which is why I made the point to begin with. the original poster insinuated that civ 2 was reality which is not it is realism.i was pointing out to him what your trying to point out to me.

	20-10-2001 04:49									#47
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I'm very pleased to see Stealing tech and blowing up buildings gone.

A few counters to high tech:
Strategic resources: Having a tech does not nessecarly let you build the units associated with the tech... and in order to trade for said resource your trade partners first need the tech.
'Spoils of war', possibly you still get the option to steal a tech of choice when capturing a city.


City walls:
Used to be, if you wanted a city wall gone you hit it with diplo's or spies. Now you use an army and/or catapults to siege a fortified city. Much more realistic.
Blowing up buildings was so cheap, in both sense of the word. Especially for a democracy. Blowing up civilian buildings is just not how modern democracies work.


Spying is all about information and intellegence. If you want to blow up buildings you should be demanding a terrorist unit.

	20-10-2001 04:58									#48
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ok of the things that are gone - destroyig building can now be done with other stuff like bombardment, smart bombs, etc... more realistic.. yes, I KNOW theres a difference between this and espionage, but if you look at it from a non-biased view, it really is the same thing, im sorry. poison water supply - viable, maybe... i dont know, I like th other things better. Setaling techs - the only thing worth complaining about being gone, altough it was very uinrealistic.

	20-10-2001 06:04									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune I see your point. But in real life, you wouldn´t need to steal those "techs" even once. Once invented, they would simply spread, and soon everybody would have them, even without spies. But that is not the case in Civ, therefore the need for spies.

Gee, and here I thought that's what the extra gold/science you got from trade was for, to represent the spread of knowledge.

Tell me, O' wise one, how a culture that is hundreds or thousands of years behind another culture would be able to understand the concepts, much less the details of an internal combustion engine if they haven't discovered chemistry for example????

I agree with Pembleton, when you talk about technological improvements that can alter an entire society like Democracy, gunpowder, flight, etc, it would be virtually impossible to get more than a base idea of a technology without the required prior-techs.

Spying for how to make a "Big-mac" would be one thing, trying to steal the idea for "music theory" would be much to broad for one unit to do, even in an abstract game like Civ.

Want some cheese with that whine???

	20-10-2001 06:09									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Nemo That list SUCKS! how do you gain extra techs when you are behind? why cant you poison water supply or demolish buildings...this REALLY SUCKS!!! it better be editable in the editor or these options found somewhere else (other than just using advanced bombing!)

Umm, how about trade and/or diplomacy for gaining tech's when you're behind?? There *are* other options in the game you know.

This is not Civ2 with better graphics, why don't you try it before proclaiming that anything different is inherently bad?

	20-10-2001 08:42									#51
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Some people keep referring to civ advances as "techs," this is incorrect.

The lesson of this is you can't hope to fall too far behind in civ advances by relying on spies stealing stuff for you.

It makes no sense anyway, for stealing civ advances to work the way it did in Civ 2. How can Og the Caveman understand my Advanced Flight without a proper understanding of physics and mathematics?

In the real world we never had gaps that big, so it's quite feasible to steal technology.

	20-10-2001 08:44									#52
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What I really miss is "bribing units." It's a lot of fun to have a small army that doesn't require support running around far away from your own nation.

	20-10-2001 08:53									#53
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i always like the spy sabatagoe of exuisting improvments, it represented the terrorist activity in the game .. whislt not agreeing with it, it is still part or real life and terrorism should be included .....

	20-10-2001 09:47									#54
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I can't say that I am too disappointed about this limited list of espionage units. I like stealing techs just as much as the other guy, but in reality, I also like keeping my tech advantage.
I will wait to see the actual espionage options before making a judgement though.

	20-10-2001 14:22									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Sabotage (sabotages the current project of an enemy city) Propaganda (attempts to convince an enemy city to join your Civilization) Steal Plans (reveals all troop locations of an enemy Civ for one turn) Steal World Map (reveals what an enemy knows about the world) Expose Enemy Spy (ferrets out opposing spies)" No Steal Tech, no Blow Up Building, need I say more?

I know somebody could be worried, but has anybody thought they were only some of the NEW habilities?

The traditional ones will BE, and these news too, so don't worry, be happy.

	20-10-2001 15:58									#56
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I agree that stealing techs in Civ2 was overpowered, but...

I always toyed with the idea of spies steeling research points. This would increase the rate of research without the arbitrary Nuke without Gunpowder.

-Alech

	20-10-2001 16:18									#57
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If there is no steal tech or blow up building why include a counter espionage option, what are they countering?

Incite revolution is best defeated by high levels of happiness and strong garrisons. Who cares if they get the world map or troop positions, that stuff changes all the time. As for sabotage secret project, that'd better be a tough one to achieve or no one will ever build a wonder.

BTW Steal tech is what most spies are caught doing, why make espionage so unrealistic and boring? But I'm glad blow building and bribe unit are gone, they were just stupid.

David

	20-10-2001 16:39									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Dugrik C'mon, how often did any of you try to blow anything up other than the city walls? And how likely is it that an agent or group of agents could bring down the city's walls?

Did it ever occur to you to use 6 at once? Well worth it for an enemy capital, don´t you think?

Or did you mean, in reality? What about opening a back door, or bribing the fortress commander?

	20-10-2001 16:40									#59
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Hmmm I think there should be some room for sabotage action instead of terrorist-like stuff.

And I must say the list looks meager to me at best. But perhaps I'll get used to it... as use of spies really never was my favorite thing.

On another note: those who complain that blowing up city walls or stealing tech are unrealistic -bribing a city is even more so.

	20-10-2001 16:43									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Trifna Propaganda is to use it against annother country. But it's a lot easier (and more used) to make propaganda in your own country than to make propaganda in annother country against the country itself!

Ever heard about satellite TV and CNN?

Ah, yes I forget: American propaganda is not propaganda, but information. Silly me!