20-10-2001 16:50									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Fredric Drum Do spies in real life blow up buildings and incite riots at an alarming rate? I don't think so. And please don't mention 11-9. As for adding stuff later.. what would have to be in an expansion pack, but I frankly don't see it happening. It would be real cool to be able to lots of stuff with spies.. but what do they do in real life? Fred

They arm, equip and train terrorists, as the CIA did in Afghanistan in the 80s to fight the Soviets. Sometimes it does backlash, of course.

And why not mention 11-9? It´s a perfect example in point.

	20-10-2001 16:52									#62
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Terrorist unit? Well, yeah, maybe to blow up a library.
But:
You can precision bomb city improvments with the Stealth Bomber as well, but... how about a commando unit to take out military installations like the SAM defense first?

Just a thought... not very clear what I'm thinking either, or is it?
Ah, screw it. I'm in a hurry

	20-10-2001 16:54									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Ozymandous Umm, how about trade and/or diplomacy for gaining tech's when you're behind

Your argument is self-defeating: If you can trade it, you can steal it.

	20-10-2001 17:08									#64
	Re: Re: Espionage Options Extremely Disappointing!! Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Kramsib I know somebody could be worried, but has anybody thought they were only some of the NEW habilities? The traditional ones will BE, and these news too, so don't worry, be happy.

Believe it or not, I have considered that thought.

However: Note that they did mention something as utterly self-evident as the change base option for planes.

So the list of air missions is obviously a complete one; I am afraid the same is true for espionage options.

	20-10-2001 20:30									#65
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This issue of Computer Gaming World Mag has an article on the effect of sept 11 on games. It lists some of the games that were delayed or changed because of sensitive content. They claim that Firaxis removed the "poison water supply" spy mission because of the sept 11 attack on the WTC and Pentagon.

I wonder if Firaxis could confirm or deny this.

	20-10-2001 21:16									#66
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Strange.

I really don't think "evil options" in a game like Civ should be limited just because someone decided to make use of "evil options" IRL.

Next time someone nukes a city, a nuke-free game patch will come out for Civ III.

	20-10-2001 21:17									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Crouchback If there is no steal tech or blow up building why include a counter espionage option, what are they countering?

Well, off the top of my head I would think that the "counter-espionage" option would stop or reduce the chance of all successful foreign spying in your empire for X number of turns. If you knew where all the spies were, or were on "extra" guard for them they'd be less successful.

	20-10-2001 21:27									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Your argument is self-defeating: If you can trade it, you can steal it.

Umm, no.

If your civilization is far enough behind that you don't have the prereq's for an advance how the heck would you know what you're stealing to begin with? I guess according to you someone from the feudal age would know what the blueprints for a tank were, or rocketry, etc? lol, they may as well break in somewhere and steal any kind of paper they find in hopes of it being an advance...

I'd assume that trading an advance (not a tech, an advance in human knowledge) would also include some sort of training class in the basics of whatever concept it is and basic instructions in how to build and/or maintain anything produced by the advance, like a tank for example.

What they should do is to hace some advances not work unless you had certain other advances discovered first. This way you'd not have folks with a Feudal Age society suddenly being able to build tanks.

Heh, come to think of it, this would be easy to accomplish if they have the tech's that allow the player to see resources seperate from the tech's that allow them to build units. Would be amusing to give someone the tech of how to build a tank but they didn't have the proper tech's to know what oil and rubber were..

The advances in the game aren't individual tech's, get to understand that concept and you'll see why the ability to steal them was apparently removed.

	20-10-2001 21:30									#69
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What! No 'plant nuke' missions ? I was really looking forward to that, especially if you would have had the option to blame it on another Civ!

I already had visions of planting a nuke in Paris, blaming it on the Aztecs and watch them nuke each other into oblivion while I would laugh myself to death!

	20-10-2001 23:46									#70
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The lack of physical spies and caravans worries me a bit. In Civ2, I spent a good amount of time moving those units around. If they no longer exist, will non-aggressive(not much attacking) civs have anything to do besides sit around accumulating knowledge and culture, etc?

	21-10-2001 00:04									#71
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ummm wtf where is the put a nuclear device option??

	21-10-2001 00:20									#72
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There are two reasons I believe you cannot steal a technology. For one, enemy civs would always steal space flight from me before they even had flight, and this just isn't realistic at all. Not to mention it defeats the point of science, why get there myself, when i could just build a spy and steal it. Also, you cannot steal Literature, or Philosophy, or Nationalism from a civ. Those are ideas really, not techs.

"So what did you learn on your mission?"
"I learned to love their country. I'm defecting!"

It's also hard for a spy to take out large and complete buildings. It rarely happens. (I said rarely, 9-11 is an exception) and maybe they do feel it's too sensitive right now.

Planting nukes was simply way too powerful in Civ II. It was understandably taken out.

	21-10-2001 00:27									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Bane Point well made...although it won't come as a surprise to who did it

I thought some of the idea behind stealth/precision bombing was to not know for sure who did it.. unless you're at war with someone. I don't know how this has been implemented in the game, but in RL it should be possible to conduct bombing raids without the people on ground knowing who did it...


Fred

	21-10-2001 00:33									#74
	Regarding stealing techs... Got spare money?

In Civ2, once you had stolen an advance, you could build everything associated with that tech, which was unrealistic.

What I would have done with Civ3 is make the chance to steal tech low, the cost high, and if the tech was stolen, not allow the thieving civ to build anything associtaed with the advance, or research anything that had the stolen tech as a prerequisite. However, once the prereqs for the stolen advance had been learned, then the civ would be able to use the knowledge gained from stealing the tech. It would still make stealing advances useful, though riskier and not game-imbalancing, while circumventing the preposterous notion that a feudal civ could build tanks just by stealing the necessary tech.

	21-10-2001 00:47									#75
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One way to balance the steal tech ability would be to only allow spies to steal techs that their civ has 1 or 2 prereqs for, allowing
small nations to keep up or get ahead but not allow them to take
your latest, most advanced technologies

	21-10-2001 01:06									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Earthling7 speculations scmeculations...

There will be consequenses, schomsequenses with
that bad espionage.

	21-10-2001 10:00									#77
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat This issue of Computer Gaming World Mag has an article on the effect of sept 11 on games. It lists some of the games that were delayed or changed because of sensitive content. They claim that Firaxis removed the "poison water supply" spy mission because of the sept 11 attack on the WTC and Pentagon. I wonder if Firaxis could confirm or deny this.

I´m very unhappy about the poor spionage options.

The "steal tech" option was surely overpowered (as I said before, another civ could steal Spaceflight and start building spaceship parts even if it haven´t discovered flight yet).

However, as a (very late, useless) sugestion, our spies could manage to steal research points to a specific tech. Or, as a possible option, the whole tech (if technical, not social - as monotheism, for example).

Possibly, the devilish options, like "Poison Water Supply" and "Plant Nuclear Device" were removed, along with "Sabotage", because of the events of the Sept. 11th. I do understand this. That day will last forever in my memory, too.

I am sure this is a very sensitive point, specially for the American Citizens, and I have great respect regarding this. But, IMHO, this (Civ3) is only a game. What about nuclear weapons? I thing they will be present... Also, this remembers me of "Colonization", were we had "converts" instead of "slaves".

Games must try to be realistic to some degree. But games must be, IMHO, first of all, fun. Avoiding sensitive issues, like terrorism, is highly understandable. This is to keep the game fun, via not allowing the game to be a reminder of sensitive aspects of present life.

Again, I want to say that I´m unhappy, but I understand. Additionally, I wanted to see more spying options (except the terroristic attacks).

I only hope that the other aspects of the gameplay make me not miss too much the old spy options.

	21-10-2001 10:35									#78
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quote: Originally posted by ndnls One way to balance the steal tech ability would be to only allow spies to steal techs that their civ has 1 or 2 prereqs for, allowing small nations to keep up or get ahead but not allow them to take your latest, most advanced technologies

A better idea would be, you can only steal tech of the age that your nation is in. Such that, a civ that is still in Mid age would not be able to get Space Flight.

	21-10-2001 11:24									#79
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why not only techs/advances that you have all Pre-reqs for ... that way it makes far more sense....

	21-10-2001 13:51									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Ah, yes I forget: American propaganda is not propaganda, but information.

Hehehehe! You can't be more right, CT!

The Americans are dropping small radios to
the Afghan population, so that they could listen
to the latest hit music, not to mention cookery shows.

	21-10-2001 13:57									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Dida A better idea would be, you can only steal tech of the age that your nation is in. Such that, a civ that is still in Mid age would not be able to get Space Flight.

I agree with you. That will prevent (especially AI) civs
from getting better techs from a much more advanced civ.
That might ease things at more dificult levels.

	21-10-2001 14:22									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Rasputin why not only techs/advances that you have all Pre-reqs for ... that way it makes far more sense....

A simple solution to making the Steal Tech option viable. Good idea.

	21-10-2001 15:19									#83
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i also think espionage things should be done qat end of everyones turn befor ethe next round begins, that way you wont know which civ performed the act.. This will work well especiaqlly for terroris activity like destroying buildings , nukes and water poisoning

	21-10-2001 22:06									#84
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Hey guys, anyone think about the new espionage actions that are present? They are actually quite good if you tihink about them.

And sabotage is still in, just only for buildings under construction. This way you can destroy a cathedral before it gets built... keeping the people unhappy. Then, when they are unhappy, you can use Propaganda to make them join your side. Very insidious if you ask me.

And being able to see all of the enemies movements for a turn means you can stop any sneak attacks, or find weakpoints in their defenses.

Once again I say, planting nukes was too powerful.

	21-10-2001 23:26									#85
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i never understood planting nukes

Every time you planted one in the capital city of another civ, you were "caught red handed minutes before it goes off"

So what?

Whoever caught you must have been a few feet from the bomb, so they would have died in the subsequent explosion.

	22-10-2001 04:19									#86
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Firaxis should make it so that the stealing of techs, destroying of buildings and the other espionage options can be enabled using the editor. That would solve the whole issue.

	22-10-2001 08:49									#87
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quote: Originally posted by fanatic civver Firaxis should make it so that the stealing of techs, destroying of buildings and the other espionage options can be enabled using the editor. That would solve the whole issue.

Well, we haven't see the "Diplomats and Spies" tab of the editor yet, have we? They very well could have made these and many more options available, but felt they were "wrong" for the basic (that is, un-edited) game.

	22-10-2001 16:33									#88
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I think it is not the whole list

	22-10-2001 20:29									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Ralf Keep things in perspective, please. I think the espionage-options that Firaxis have chosen to implement are more then enough. After all, they shouldnt try to create "a game within a game", with 20+ different options, or more. That would be too distractive, and also potentially gameplay-unbalancing. Stealing tech's was really overpowerful in Civ-2, and Im glad that its gone. Two succesful tech-thefts gave the same result as building the Darwin Voyage Wonder. Blowing up Civ-buildings is done best by bombing-missions, during wars. If you do that in peace-time; its empire-supported terrorism.

As usual, well said, Ralf. I believe the root of much of the pessimism, at least coming from yin, is that Civ3 is not "revolutionary" enough. They want to have 20 games-within-a-game, as evidence by their too-complex List. I think, as you imply, that such things would cause everyone to get bogged down in managing details that take away from abstractly managing a global civ through 6000 years.

	22-10-2001 21:21									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Steve Clark As usual, well said, Ralf. I believe the root of much of the pessimism, at least coming from yin, is that Civ3 is not "revolutionary" enough. They want to have 20 games-within-a-game, as evidence by their too-complex List. I think, as you imply, that such things would cause everyone to get bogged down in managing details that take away from abstractly managing a global civ through 6000 years.