19-10-2001 22:16									#1
	Espionage Options Extremely Disappointing!! Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

"Don't say you heard it from us, but here are a list of espionage missions you can perform in Civ III:

Sabotage (sabotages the current project of an enemy city)
Propaganda (attempts to convince an enemy city to join your Civilization)
Steal Plans (reveals all troop locations of an enemy Civ for one turn)
Steal World Map (reveals what an enemy knows about the world)
Expose Enemy Spy (ferrets out opposing spies)"

No Steal Tech, no Blow Up Building, need I say more?

	19-10-2001 22:18									#2
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Ya... I wonder why you can't steal tech. That's strange.

	19-10-2001 22:20									#3
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well steal tech was overpowered in my opinion, but i agree why no blow up building? or even more important, incite riots

maybe they didn't list everything...or if they did maybe they will add in other stuff later

	19-10-2001 22:20									#4
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Good....I'm glad to see the steal technology go......

To think that a single spy could learn the secret of a technology by entering a single city always seemed silly to me.....

Though it does seem odd that one won't have the ability to do any really dirty deeds. (Don't forget poison water supply)....

	19-10-2001 22:22									#5
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speculations scmeculations...

	19-10-2001 22:27									#6
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quote: Originally posted by drake Good....I'm glad to see the steal technology go......

I agree that early on steal tech is unrealistic...but what about modern era? Steal nuclear plans, space flight plans...

you should be able to 'steal tech' which speeds up your research, rather than just giving you the advance, IMO.

	19-10-2001 22:27									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Earthling7 speculations scmeculations...

Ehh, no. Why should they give us a list, if it isnīt complete? Simply to annoy us?

	19-10-2001 22:28									#8
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It was this exact type of thread that drove me to start the topic "has the pessimism gotten out of hand"...

	19-10-2001 22:29									#9
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I wouldn't expect CIV III to be a major retrograde step in some areas-the nastier options have to exist, unless the world's turned totally PC!

	19-10-2001 22:30									#10
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quote: Originally posted by fluxcapacitor It was this exact type of thread that drove me to start the topic "has the pessimism gotten out of hand"...

Again: That has nothing to do with pessimism. If I am given a list with options, I assume the list is complete. Why would they deliberately leave something out?

	19-10-2001 22:34									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Again: That has nothing to do with pessimism. If I am given a list with options, I assume the list is complete. Why would they deliberately leave something out?

Because they are not nice. They love hiding in the shadow watching you squeeeel

	19-10-2001 22:39									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune No Steal Tech, no Blow Up Building, need I say more?

Keep things in perspective, please.
I think the espionage-options that Firaxis have chosen to implement are more then enough.

After all, they shouldnt try to create "a game within a game", with 20+ different options, or more. That would be too distractive, and also potentially gameplay-unbalancing.

Stealing tech's was really overpowerful in Civ-2, and Im glad that its gone. Two succesful tech-thefts gave the same result as building the Darwin Voyage Wonder.

Blowing up Civ-buildings is done best by bombing-missions, during wars. If you do that in peace-time; its empire-supported terrorism.

	19-10-2001 22:42									#13
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I donīt believe that was the complete list.
Too poor, IMHO. So... Well, letīs wait.

	19-10-2001 22:44									#14
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quote: Blowing up Civ-buildings is done best by bombing-missions, during wars. If you do that in peace-time; its empire-supported terrorism.

Terrorism should have a place in civ3.....Its necessary in fact.

	19-10-2001 22:45									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Earthling7 Because they are not nice. They love hiding in the shadow watching you squeeeel

No, they arenīt that childish.

As I see it, you canīt blow up city walls, you canīt steal technology, you canīt wage infrastructural warfare. The espionage subgame is dead.

The most disappointing news so far. Espionage should be the alternative to warfare.

	19-10-2001 22:47									#16
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a few other options from SMAC that were cool

*assassinate researchers: halved the amount of research on the newest tech
*free leader: restarted a civ that had been eliminated

	19-10-2001 22:54									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Ralf After all, they shouldnt try to create "a game within a game", with 20+ different options, or more. That would be too distractive, and also potentially gameplay-unbalancing.

Does that mean they should exclude war, because itīs a game within the game? Espionage can achieve the same results with much less bloodshed; itīs a more humane way to get about.

quote: Blowing up Civ-buildings is done best by bombing-missions, during wars. If you do that in peace-time; its empire-supported terrorism.

So, what? Last time I checked the game was called CIV3, not CIVPC.

And if we must get philosophical: War itself is empire-supported terrorism, large-style.

	19-10-2001 22:56									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Ralf Steal tech's was really overpowerful in Civ-2, and Im glad that its gone. Two succesful tech-thefts gave the same result as buliding the Darwin Voyage Wonder.

Agree. Stealing techs was really overpowerful indeed. Mainly when another civ steals Spaceflight and begin to build spaceship parts before discovering flight, for example.

	19-10-2001 23:01									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Craftsman Mainly when another civ steals Spaceflight and begin to build spaceship parts before discovering flight, for example.

Agreed; but they could have easily fixed this without killing the espionage/sabotage subgame. This is now worse than CivI, CivII, both Moos etc.

	19-10-2001 23:06									#20
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Yes, we lost some espionage options, but
Yes, we gained some espionage options.

The whole game is going to be different anyway, so who are WE to judge (yet)?

	19-10-2001 23:11									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Ralf: Blowing up Civ-buildings is done best by bombing-missions, during wars. If you do that in peace-time; its empire-supported terrorism.

Agreed, but it would be fine, when you can also sabotage existent buildings during war like barracks. There should be only a small percent
that the attack is successful. After an espionage attack the city should be alert, so espionage get much more difficult, like the ctp2-concept of alternative warfare.

	19-10-2001 23:16									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Jaybe Yes, we lost some espionage options, but Yes, we gained some espionage options.

Absolutely wrong.

They took all the powerful options away, and replaced them with meaningless options.

And they said they would add depth to the major areas of the game. Instead, they killed my favourite subgame!

	19-10-2001 23:19									#23
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quote: Originally posted by korn469 a few other options from SMAC that were cool *assassinate researchers: halved the amount of research on the newest tech *free leader: restarted a civ that had been eliminated

That sounds wonderful. Sabotage tech by killing Oppenheimer... hehehe

	19-10-2001 23:21									#24
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I'm glad stealing techs are gone, if indeed it is (they may not have listed all of them and there's always the possibility of a mistake).

It was really annoying to have to put troops or spies in certain areas to stop a continuous wave of spies who are stealing techs, when you were leading in science against a civ that had much more industry or troops.

It isn't fair when you spend several/many turns to research something that a civ can get instantaneously from a unit that can perform other functions and also survive the steal and do it again. And yes, I understand the spy units are gone. I was describing the Civ2 experience.

	19-10-2001 23:26									#25
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As for infrastructural warefare, I think that bombarding with catapults, cannons, etc. should cover this in the early game. Remember, this one particular system cannot be compared to previous games since how it fits into the game is quite likely different. I would have liked to see poison water supply and plant nuclear device, but I'll be fine without them.

	19-10-2001 23:27									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Pembleton It was really annoying to have to put troops or spies in certain areas to stop a continuous wave of spies who are stealing techs, when you were leading in science against a civ that had much more industry or troops.

But that is real life. Welcome to reality!

	19-10-2001 23:28									#27
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My biggest fear is that we will achieve a Civ3 that is more realistic but not as much fun to play.

I mean, sitting back and building culture wonders until your amoeba grows big enough to swallow 2/3 of the map does not sound like fun to me.

In real life, stealing technology is a MAJOR part of espionage. Certainly the CIV2 was unrealistically powerful, but taking it out completely is a disappointment and IMO a weakness.

I suspect bombardment is the answer to espionage to destroy city walls, and that makes more sense to me.

	19-10-2001 23:34									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Akron As for infrastructural warefare, I think that bombarding with catapults, cannons, etc. should cover this in the early game. Remember, this one particular system cannot be compared to previous games since how it fits into the game is quite likely different.

In a technical sense, you are right. However, I see espionage etc. as something that is functionally different from warfare. A replacement for warfare more than a supplement to it. It is the ultimate equalizer in favour of the have-nots, who can not afford conventional weaponry and/or expensive research. In the game, it can also help the AI to keep up with the player and thereby make the game more interesting.

	19-10-2001 23:45									#29
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Many of the new options are intriguing, but I do hope the list they gave is incomplete.

Stealing technology was overpowered in Civ2, but could be made viable for Civ3 by weakening it a bit. Make an attempt to steal tech cost a hefty sum, and have a low chance of success. Given how much of a boost a stolen tech could provide, I don't think my alterations are excessive.

Sabotaging existing improvements was always one of my favorite methods of wreaking havoc. Sure, it's (more or less) terrorism, but it sure was fun to bomb cathedrals to cause unhappiness. In a similar vein, poisoning the water (though, interestingly enough, I had changed this in the text files to an act of bioterrorism!) was a nice option, though infrequently used. The suitcase nuke was a bit overpowered, but also fun. Terrorism could also have a reduced chance of effectiveness, plus a major drop in regard from other civs.

	19-10-2001 23:46									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune But that is real life. Welcome to reality!

At least respond to my whole post instead of taking a quote out of context and responding to that, distorting the meaning of what I was saying. And guess what? Stealing a tech is not reality.

And your endless whining has just put you as the honorary third person on my ignore list.