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Bisonbison
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my bathtub, CA
Aug 2001
time: 00:15
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quote:
Originally posted by yin26
However, it looks like they keep him running around doing a million other tasks when he should be pouring his heart and soul into the Firaxis Web presence and the ensuing good PR that constantly updated information and feedback would bring.
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Having said that: Yes, it's frustrating. Sometimes maddingly so.
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Don't confuse the recent past with the company's overall performance. As I said: I don't think it's a priority for Firaxis. Yes, Civ3.com is a huge step in the right direction for the company ... but other issues still haunt them.
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Bisonbison: Talk about chilling out, dude. You're busy talking about beating kids and I'm just making simple statements about a company that doesn't put a premium on PR.
Sorry that bothers you. Stick around. You'll have a much, much harder time 'chillin', dude' if this gets you so riled up.
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Ha.
Well, you're right, the gaming community at large seems really taken aback by the constant three stooges-esque fumbling of the civ3 PR effort.
Or maybe not. For a game with the brand recognition of civ3, prioritizing information releases that only touch the 5% of fans MOST devoted to the game is not going to sell more units or broaden civ3's reach. It's just not. That's not to say that fanatical civ communities like apolyton don't contribute to a game's shelf-life or value, but I think firaxis would rather divide their time between more casual gamers (or more casual strategy fans), who might only today have realized that the game was coming out in a week, and those who make finding out civ-related news a daily obsessive ritual.
Civ3.com has frequent updates, funny and informative info, a wide variety of screenshots, and a webmaster who spends some time browsing community sites. What more can we ask for?
What exactly would you like them to do? Give you the source code?
<i>Edit:</i> By the way, I am actually asking what you would like them to do. And don't tell me to go hunt down other threads where you made these points brilliantly, I'm pretty sure your imaginary list of debating rules shoots that one down too.
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ndnls
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The Frozen Wastes (Canada)
Oct 2001
time: 01:15
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I should have qualified myself better, and I don't mean this thread
as a smear against the people at Firaxis. I understand they're
only human.
What my point is is that they should of rectified the error asap
instead of leaving us ranting ourselves blue in the face for what
turns out to be a simple clerical error. The espionage forum has
dozens of posts about how they shoulden't have "removed"
the steal tech ability.
Well, I guess it would be too much to ask them to hire a full time
staff just to look the Apolytoners with all of the other thing the need to take care of.
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Bisonbison
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my bathtub, CA
Aug 2001
time: 00:15
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quote:
Originally posted by yin26
First: I understand that they are targetting the casual gamer (or so it seems) with their PR. Then on the other hand, they have taken so many ideas from the hardcore people and put them in the game. It's just ironic.
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There's a jump in your logic here that I'm just not following. You say they're targetting the casual gamer in there PR efforts (so far so good), then you say, "on the other hand" they've taken ideas from the hardcore people and put them in the game, then you say that that dichotomy is ironic. Why don't you just say that you'd like them to target the hardcore people? It sounds like you think the hardcore fans DESERVE to be targetted since they've contributed so many brilliant concepts to the game.
Why should that be the case? Are there more than a few hundred or a couple thousand hardcore civ fans in the world? Hardcore enough to rack up a king rating at apolyton? I don't think so.
It just seems like you're begrudging them their legitimate effort to market the game. They want to be able to surprise people, they want to keep some secrets for the release, they don't want to kill off the excitement of new info by making every day new info day.
quote:
Thoroughly updated FAQs, as much info about units and AI as can possibly be posted, prompt updates on the site when something is found to be wrong ... those are the nuts and bolts things I'M talking about here. |
As for the immediate site updates when something is found to be wrong - if someone finds the time to contact Apolyton and other such sites, isn't that enough? It's the only place people heard the incorrect statement in any case. Don't you think retraction/correction #16 for the day is going to confuse casual Carl when he visits the site?
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Comrade Tribune
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Vienna, Austria
Nov 1999
time: 06:15
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfLotus
Firaxis has limited resources. I applaud their decision to focus most of it on game development rather than PR. |
If that was the whole story, I would agree with you.
In fact, there are three approaches to this (take the following with a grain of salt):
1) The 'Heroes of Might and Magic Gambit': "It will be a wonderful game, and here is a nice screenshot, and as to the rest of your questions you will have to wait until the game is in stores."
2) The 'Firaxian Chaosmonger Approach': "We will leak some information at infrequent and unpredictable intervals, and some of this information will be dated, inaccurate or unintelligible, but it will serve to increase the hype, so all will be well."
3) The (sadly rare) Moo Approach: "We are going to tell you bona fide, what we are planning to do. We might change our plans, but if we do so, we will tell you asap, so you are not going to be kept in the dark."
I think it is understandable why some people, including me, prefer (3) and even (1) to (2).
It goes without saying that doesn´t mean that CivIII will be a bad game. The screenshots sure do look promising, and if they have managed to improve the AI, the game will be well worth the money. But that doesn´t mean we have to like their PR method, and the way they treat the community. 
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Bisonbison
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my bathtub, CA
Aug 2001
time: 00:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Comrade Tribune
It goes without saying that doesn´t mean that CivIII will be a bad game. The screenshots sure do look promising, and if they have managed to improve the AI, the game will be well worth the money. But that doesn´t mean we have to like their PR method, and the way they treat the community. |
Well, I just think that it goes without saying that when a company tries to engage with it's shadow online community it has to face a stinking pile of crap from all sides. People on these boards (and boards just like them for every game I've ever followed) take things too personally, feel entitled rather than grateful, and get indignant like a pre-schoolers every time some cherished item in the game is changed.
I mean you can say that the overall community is reasonable, but for every time people like Yin try to castrate the whole company for leaving/taking out a major feature (like multiplayer), there are a hundred times when other people try to castrate the whole company for taking/leaving out something like elephant units, or the ability to poison water supplies. Do you think that encourages them to release information that isn't set in stone?
And the larger issue isn't even the features/units/screenshots, it's the rage that the community directs at Firaxis whenever something about these things doesn't live up to someone's expectations. Why do people get SO ANGRY? It's as if people assume Sid is sitting at home plotting the best way to piss on people's heads.
"Oh, I bet Yin really wants Tulsa listed in the American city list. I hate Yin. Somebody delete Tulsa, will you?"
All these things discourage info release, discourage Dan from trolling these boards and so on. So before we ask firaxis to do all these things, let's consider the legitimate reasons why they might not want to invest the energy.
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Pembleton
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Cyberspace
Apr 1999
time: 23:15
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quote:
Originally posted by SITS
Yin - I don't know how you do it. You post in a rational tone that never seems to slip. The points you make are well put together and expressed without a nasty tone yet you seem to manage to bring out 'flame rage' in a lot of different posters! Wow! I would hate to see what would happen if you were really trying to troll!
The Others - I wonder why you get so pissed off? Yin doesn't seem to attack until he is attacked so what is it about his posts that make you see red? |
Have you heard of Chinese Water Torture? That's what is. Repeating the same thing over and over and over and over and over. And he doesn't make me angry as much as make me view him as an annoying fly that I can't swat.
His posts here are:
1) There is no MP this is bad. 50+posts explaining.
2) Why is there no MP? 50+ posts explaining.
3) I'm upset there is no MP....50+ posts explaining
4) ..... 50+ posts explaining about lack of MP
.
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.
This even pushed MarkG over the edge as he closed yet another thread dealing with the lack of MP as he wrote in the last post: "Is the horse dead yet?"
And if it's not complaining about MP, it's complaining about *something*. So it may seem rational, but the root of his reason for posting are not rational at all.
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Bisonbison
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my bathtub, CA
Aug 2001
time: 00:15
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quote:
Originally posted by yin26
This is precisely my point. I am *not* one of those 'tell me every little thing even before you decide on it' gamers. I'd much, much rather have NO news than things that lead to the MP fiasco, for example
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In fact, over and over some of the loudest critics here have said that a more judicious posting of information would quiet them up yesterday. |
But the point is of course that many of the loudest critics would yell their heads off if there wasn't more info every friday, and that the problem may lie, not in Firaxis' approach, but in the concession, implicit in the loudest critics' remarks, that they don't have to yell at all.
They don't have to act like it's the end of the world. They don't have to call major feature revelations "fiasco"s. Why? because they're not fiascos, not betrayals, not anything but dissapointing developments, until the posters make them so. And it's that culture of screaming and demanding and ingratitude that gets old.
And while you may not be an every-little-thing-guy, you admit to be a "as much info about units and AI as can possibly be posted" kind of guy. You can't have it both ways.
And when a hundred people each want to have it both ways ("oh, you can forget about trade info, just focus on screenshots" "oh, I don't care about armies, just give me a wonders list" it ends up making no difference in terms of effort on Dan's part.
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25-10-2001 06:33
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