25-10-2001 04:48									#1
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Why woud Firaxis post a "complete" espionage features list, only
to post a "'complete' complete" espionage features list?

Why do they post totally complete lists for other features but
post partial features lists other times?

Since the game has gone Gold, I'm assuming that all of the things
they are posting about the game are complete lists of all the
things you'll be able to do in the course of normal gameplay.

Is somebody at Firaxis P.R. asleep at the switch?

	25-10-2001 04:50									#2
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People make mistakes, son.

	25-10-2001 05:07									#3
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Hmmm. If they playtested the game with the same casual attitude, then the AI is going to be lousy...

	25-10-2001 05:10									#4
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The people playtesting the game should be able to accurately memorize the rules. I think.

	25-10-2001 05:11									#5
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They have communicated the extent of their playtesting. In this case somebody posted 4/6ths of the espionage list by mistake. Maybe they should playtest their posts.

	25-10-2001 05:13									#6
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quote: Originally posted by ndnls Why woud Firaxis post a "complete" espionage features list, only to post a "'complete' complete" espionage features list?

it's part of the firaxian conspiracy to conquer the world and prepate the planet for the aliens from alpha centauri to colonize it

	25-10-2001 05:16									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune The people playtesting the game should be able to accurately memorize the rules. I think.

Since you apparently make no mistakes, maybe you should apply for a job there.
Or since you have no tolerence for mistakes, maybe you should stay away from humans.

	25-10-2001 05:27									#8
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It was a simple mistake about the espionage mission list not like the omission of MP....

	25-10-2001 05:29									#9
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quote: Originally posted by HalfLotus Since you apparently make no mistakes, maybe you should apply for a job there. Or since you have no tolerence for mistakes, maybe you should stay away from humans.

Thanks for useful advice, but...

I donīt claim to have invented or playtested CivII, but I still know all the rules without having to look them up in the manual, so is it really demanding too much from the Firaxian PR persons to be accurate with their info?

	25-10-2001 05:37									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Thanks for useful advice, but... I donīt claim to have invented or playtested CivII, but I still know all the rules without having to look them up in the manual, so is it really demanding too much from the Firaxian PR persons to be accurate with their info?

No, it isn't. In this case they goofed on the esp. list and someone says "Don't do that!". Dont make mistakes? I'm sure they're trying to be accurate. To err is human. Do you know what a mistake is? And that they are unavoidable? And that you don't have to remind Firaxis that they should post accurate information?

	25-10-2001 05:44									#11
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i think we should sue avault. they used jeff briggs' photo instead of jeff morris'

	25-10-2001 05:50									#12
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quote: Originally posted by HalfLotus I'm sure they're trying to be accurate. To err is human. Do you know what a mistake is? And that they are unavoidable? And that you don't have to remind Firaxis that they should post accurate information?

And that you donīt have to remind me that I don't have to remind Firaxis that they should post accurate information?

Fact is, Dan also got the numbers for the draft wrong and, to get a long story short, his information is very frequently not precisely accurate. I just hope the other playtesters over at Firaxis had less difficulties in actually memorizing the rules...

	25-10-2001 05:54									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune I just hope the other playtesters over at Firaxis had less difficulties in actually memorizing the rules...

I agree.

	25-10-2001 05:55									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Fact is, Dan also got the numbers for the draft wrong and, to get a long story short, his information is very frequently not precisely accurate.

please be more accurate in your accusations

	25-10-2001 06:05									#15
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG please be more accurate in your accusations

I donīt plan to sue Dan , but I definitely do remember his info has been hazy/outright inaccurate much more often than once. You know the forum in and out, so should be able to ascertain that my opinion is not at all unfounded.

	25-10-2001 06:08									#16
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My take on all this: Firaxis never has made it a priority to interact with and keep its fans up to date. Things have gotten much better (yes, I said that) after they hired Dan.

However, it looks like they keep him running around doing a million other tasks when he should be pouring his heart and soul into the Firaxis Web presence and the ensuing good PR that constantly updated information and feedback would bring.

I do not blame Dan for this. These are matters of priority decided at much higher levels in the company.

Having said that: Yes, it's frustrating. Sometimes maddingly so.

	25-10-2001 06:13									#17
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 My take on all this: Firaxis never has made it a priority to interact with and keep its fans up to date.

Are you ****ing kidding me? They have a site, it's called Civ3.com. They do a civ of the week. They have a FAQ. They have developer update. They have lots of screenshots. Dan and other Firaxians POST ON THESE BOARDS REGULARLY. Sure, they have made mistakes (see above posts), but to say they havent made it a priority is silly.
Are you sure your MP anger isnt spilling over Yin?

	25-10-2001 06:15									#18
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Don't confuse the recent past with the company's overall performance. As I said: I don't think it's a priority for Firaxis. Yes, Civ3.com is a huge step in the right direction for the company ... but other issues still haunt them.

As I pointed out.

	25-10-2001 06:20									#19
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quote: Originally posted by HalfLotus Are you ****ing kidding me? They have a site, it's called Civ3.com. They do a civ of the week. They have a FAQ. They have developer update. They have lots of screenshots. Dan and other Firaxians POST ON THESE BOARDS REGULARLY. Sure, they have made mistakes (see above posts), but to say they havent made it a priority is silly. Are you sure your MP anger isnt spilling over Yin?

Don't waste your time arguing with him. See Boris Godunov's signature for a reason: "Never argue with an idiot. You won't change his mind, and anyone watching can't tell the difference."

	25-10-2001 06:20									#20
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 Don't confuse the recent past with the company's overall performance. As I said: I don't think it's a priority for Firaxis. Yes, Civ3.com is a huge step in the right direction for the company ... but other issues still haunt them. As I pointed out.

As far as recent versus past. They have had Civ3.com for some time now. Your conclusion that it isnt a priority runs counter to the examples that I gave and that you choose to ignore. What do other issues have to do with communication priority? They seem to be doing a great job to me.

	25-10-2001 06:22									#21
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quote: What do other issues have to do with communication priority?

I don't care to re-run the past 2 years of Firaxis Follies. Read old threads if you are really interested.

	25-10-2001 06:22									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Pembleton Don't waste your time arguing with him. See Boris Godunov's signature for a reason: "Never argue with an idiot. You won't change his mind, and anyone watching can't tell the difference."

I enjoy good debate, and Yin seems competent at least. Although his disappointment over MP seems to pervade and infect all of his debates.

	25-10-2001 06:24									#23
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Halflotus: As Yin has pointed out, Firaxian PR has improved somewhat, recently. But as to the amount of openness, accuracy and interaction possible, look at what the MOO people do. You will sure note there is a difference.

	25-10-2001 06:25									#24
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quote: Originally posted by HalfLotus I enjoy good debate, and Yin seems competent at least. Although his disappointment over MP seems to pervade and infect all of his debates.

Oh I thought he was competent for quite some time until he just flat out lied. I can have respect for anyone who has some intelligence and is honest, but that just pushed it over the edge for me. I have him on my ignore list BTW.

	25-10-2001 06:28									#25
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Uh-oh, comrade just got a kick in the butt from Yin and you're back for more. Just kidding.
The thread started by saying that Firaxis made a mistake and that "they shouldn't do that!" You agreed with him.

I repeat, you dont have to remind Firaxis not to misinform us. It's common sense.

	25-10-2001 06:28									#26
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I just love the people who don't actually care to read what I type or actually know what has happened these past two years and still feel qualified to argue about the past. HalfLotus: Feel free to use pop psychology on me, but I have facts on my side (again: go find them if you are really interested). But I suppose it's more fun to pre-judge me rather than consider carefully what is acually written.

And as a common debating rule: The first guy to call the other guy and idiot loses. This is common knowledge.

	25-10-2001 06:29									#27
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 Don't confuse the recent past with the company's overall performance. As I said: I don't think it's a priority for Firaxis. Yes, Civ3.com is a huge step in the right direction for the company ... but other issues still haunt them. As I pointed out.

Haunt them? <b>Haunt them</b>? Jeeeez. Chill out dude. It's not like they killed someone by failing to describe river trade bonuses in succinct detail. It's a game, and
they have to spend their time and money producing it in such a way as to maximize their return on investment while also producing a product they're not ashamed to call their own.

Would the community of potential purchasers be better served if they hired another web guy, one whose sole job was to hang out at apolyton and answer dumb questions? I don't think so. Apolyton would be better off, perhaps, but I think Dan does a pretty snazzy job already.

Sid and company may have a history of secrecy, but it's their right to, and it keeps them safe from the insane rantings of the fanatical civ community. This kind of reaction is exactly why they hesitate to give tentative information in the first place.

What did they do in the end? Mislead you for a week about the espionage missions? Geez, I hope you didn't beat your kids in frustration. They didn't even take them out of the game, they just made a mistake and told you wrong.

	25-10-2001 06:30									#28
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quote: until he just flat out lied

Translation: "Until he said something I simply didn't want to believe." Big difference. And keep in mind: He has me on ignore and STILL feels he can enter discussions about me. Brilliant!

	25-10-2001 06:31									#29
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 I just love the people who don't actually care to read what I type or actually know what has happened these past two years and still feel qualified to argue about the past. HalfLotus: Feel free to use pop psychology on me, but I have facts on my side (again: go find them if you are really interested). But I suppose it's more fun to pre-judge me rather than consider carefully what is acually written. And as a common debating rule: The first guy to call the other guy and idiot loses. This is common knowledge.

I suppose your signature speaks volumes about your listening ability.

	25-10-2001 06:32									#30
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Bisonbison: Talk about chilling out, dude. You're busy talking about beating kids and I'm just making simple statements about a company that doesn't put a premium on PR.

Sorry that bothers you. Stick around. You'll have a much, much harder time 'chillin', dude' if this gets you so riled up.