25-10-2001 07:57									#61
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quote: But the point is of course that many of the loudest critics would yell their heads off if there wasn't more info every friday

Yes, I don't much care for those people. But if Dan PROMISES updates every Friday, should he be surprised when he gets grilled for being late? Here's something: Make no promises!

quote: And while you may not be an every-little-thing-guy, you admit to be a "as much info about units and AI as can possibly be posted" kind of guy. You can't have it both ways.

Notice that by 'possible' I mean within the confines of good marketing (you don't want to reveal TOO much) and PR (but you should reveal things, if at all, in a coherent and timely way).

So there is nothing 'both ways' about what I am saying.

	25-10-2001 08:00									#62
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quote: Originally posted by SITS So, tell me how YOU add to the Apolyton experience by saying how bad Yin's posts are? You ain't adding to my pleasure that's for sure.

I don't. I'm just here to warn others of the dark side that is Yin.

	25-10-2001 08:12									#63
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 Yes, I don't much care for those people. But if Dan PROMISES updates every Friday, should he be surprised when he gets grilled for being late? Here's something: Make no promises! Notice that by 'possible' I mean within the confines of good marketing (you don't want to reveal TOO much) and PR (but you should reveal things, if at all, in a coherent and timely way). So there is nothing 'both ways' about what I am saying.

Well, I'm gonna opt out of this for now, but can't resist harping once again on the idea that Firaxis' basic marketing device is sound, and that Apolyton should be a little more grateful for the info that we diligently sieve from interviews, previews and so on. I know that Firaxis could do a better job, but isn't that inevitable? And if they set the bar a little lower on what they feel comfortable officially releasing, then can't we put the melodramatics and character assassination aside and maybe channel the efforts to change their ways into more mature avenues?

I mean, couldn't someone write them a letter, with all the punctuation and none of the cursing? To post here lamely and loudly, and to then complain when they ignore the screaming seems to me an endless exercise in being dumb.

	25-10-2001 08:12									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Pembleton I don't. I'm just here to warn others of the dark side that is Yin.

Great! You lambaste Yin for going on about things yet it is ok for you to treat him however you want? Tell me why it isn't ok for Yin to post about the he cares about in a rational consistent way yet it is ok for you to flame him? Tell me where the fairness in that is?

Oh, I forgot about your smilie.

	25-10-2001 08:57									#65
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My thanks to SITS. I hate to drag him into this mess, though.

quote: I mean, couldn't someone write them a letter, with all the punctuation and none of the cursing? To post here lamely and loudly, and to then complain when they ignore the screaming seems to me an endless exercise in being dumb.

I agree, actually, that cursing gets nowhere. It is a fine line, however, between complaining and screaming. And there is certainly a difference between trying to raise a valid concern and simply whining. But hey, if they want to sell games to a bunch of hyped up addicts, comes with the territory ... it's on Firaxis to perform, after all.

	25-10-2001 09:00									#66
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 Yes, I don't much care for those people. But if Dan PROMISES updates every Friday, should he be surprised when he gets grilled for being late? Here's something: Make no promises!

"Make no promises" ... I think this is why we haven't hear the plans for MP or other pieces of news we want. I can't count the number of times that companies have been criticized on the web when the moved their target release date even after saying it wasn't official. They will let us know their official plans for multiplayer when they know what their official plans are. If they say anything else before that they will be held accountable for it and criticized when they change them.

Just a few years ago game makers didn't have 1,000's of amateur reporters on the web trying to pry information from them. They need to figure out the best way to use the web to benefit both them and us.

	25-10-2001 09:02									#67
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quote: They need to figure out the best way to use the web to benefit both them and us.

Yes. Well said.

	25-10-2001 09:14									#68
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And let me just touch on MP again, since you raise the topic:

I actually encourage Firaxis NOT to release the details about what they are trying to do with MP since this could and likely will change over time. On this point we agree.

The problem, however, was that MP was hyped as 'revolutionary' etc. for a good long time. During which time, pre-orders were being taken ... and some of those orders were made no doubt based at least in part on the implicit promise that MP would be in the game.

O.K. Fine. Plans change. This is life.

HOWEVER: We never got a straight answer, though we asked and asked and asked. Info. was then leaked in highly unprofessional way ... and we have to wait for a NON-Firaxis site to finally give us clues, etc.

Now, IF Firaxis had said A) during the hype "... though we aren't sure if we can have this done in time for the release, so we are considering options for later release" or (if they didn't know at that time) B) publically on the main site "Dear Firaxis fans: Despite our best efforts to have our vision for MP fully realized by release time, it won't be possible. Instead, we have focussed on SP and will release MP later. To be honest, it will be up to the marketing people at Infogrames whether or not MP will be downloadable for free or as part of an x-pansion pack. We apologize to those of you who pre-ordered expecting MP. Pre-orders can be cancelled, of course, but we are certain that you'll enjoy the SP experience so much that it will be worth your wait!"

Now, it's pretty hard to complain in the face of that.

	25-10-2001 14:02									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Thanks for useful advice, but... I donīt claim to have invented or playtested CivII, but I still know all the rules without having to look them up in the manual, so is it really demanding too much from the Firaxian PR persons to be accurate with their info?

Id just like to comment on this.
Sure, you remember all the rules without looking in the manual. Dah. Im not knocking you, everyone whos played Civ 2 for a long time would remember all the rules, how things work, etc. But what you are forgetting is the Dan has been playing ALPHA versions. Please note the plural.

What this means is that Dan has been playing with one set of rules and options for a day, week whatever length of time. Then he gets the next updated version, with different values and rules, even some more options that have been added. After a period of time, this is then replaced with a newer version.... Now are you starting to see why there might be some ambiguous information???

Sure, it was a mistake, and in a perfect world it wouldnt happen. But on the scale of importance, this ranks very low.

To Yin: Your posts are mostly well-thought-out, and these are no exception. You are right in that Firaxis could have handled PR better, specifically with regards to the MP issue. They are getting better thought, as you pointed out, and for this blame couldnt be put on Dan.

	25-10-2001 20:19									#70
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 My take on all this: Firaxis never has made it a priority to interact with and keep its fans up to date. Things have gotten much better (yes, I said that) after they hired Dan. However, it looks like they keep him running around doing a million other tasks when he should be pouring his heart and soul into the Firaxis Web presence and the ensuing good PR that constantly updated information and feedback would bring. I do not blame Dan for this. These are matters of priority decided at much higher levels in the company. Having said that: Yes, it's frustrating. Sometimes maddingly so.

Bla bla bla...Firaxis should spend more time on the web...with malcontents like me (Yin)...bla bla bla...agitate, agitate!

	25-10-2001 20:51									#71
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quote: Originally posted by HalfLotus I enjoy good debate, and Yin seems competent at least. Although his disappointment over MP seems to pervade and infect all of his debates.

Yin is a force to be used for good or evil. Lately he has gone back into the dark side.

Use the Yin my son!!

	25-10-2001 23:39									#72
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quote: Halflotus: As Yin has pointed out, Firaxian PR has improved somewhat, recently. But as to the amount of openness, accuracy and interaction possible, look at what the MOO people do. You will sure note there is a difference.

I'd like to point out the disparity of threads in each of these forums. There are usually 4 pages of thrads from the past two days in the Civ3: general forum alone, compared to the three or four threads kept alive in the MoO3 forum. Granted I'm not taking the other forum into account, but Stormhound only has to deal with one or two fairly specific questions a day. Imagine Dan trying to explain a thousand different points a day, all the while watching people post that "I will not buy Civ3 if this is/isn't in!", would you react very favorably to that? This all stems from Dan and Firaxis giving us information in the first place. Why don't some of you got to the Empire Earth website (It's made by Stainless Steel Studios), then you'll realize what the contributions of Firaxis have really done. At EE they don't give information out, period. You demand information one minute, then say that the information given makes the game suck the next. See the cycle?

	26-10-2001 03:47									#73
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quote: Originally posted by MacTBone I'd like to point out the disparity of threads in each of these forums. There are usually 4 pages of thrads from the past two days in the Civ3: general forum alone, compared to the three or four threads kept alive in the MoO3 forum.

I love people who donīt even try to understand what I say.

You never visited the Moo3 Website, did you?http://moo3.quicksilver.com/main.html

Compare the amount of info there to the info given out by the official Civ site. Thatīs what I was talking about. Stormhoundīs -extremely competent- presence here at Apolyton is just the icing on the cake; delightful icing, however.

	26-10-2001 04:24									#74
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Did you even read the next little bit where I said that "Granted I'm not taking the other forum into account, but Stormhound only has to deal with one or two fairly specific questions a day"?

What about my other points?

	26-10-2001 04:40									#75
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quote: Originally posted by MacTBone Did you even read the next little bit where I said that "Granted I'm not taking the other forum into account, but Stormhound only has to deal with one or two fairly specific questions a day"? What about my other points?

-I was not talking about any forum. The Moo site itself contains pages and pages chock full of relevant information. The Civsite has very little hard info and lots of bla-bla.

-What other points?

	26-10-2001 04:56									#76
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One good website and suddenly Firaxis is the bad guys. They seem to give more info than Blizzard ever has, to name another great company.

Fact is that most games don't release that much info on their games. Some small publishers can afford to do so, most don't.

And GP, you were spot on when you said Yin is the example for JKM's infamous 'bugs create the community' statement!