28-10-2001 04:28									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Dodgedemon I agree with UberKrux, every nation has to figure out for itself what works best at the time. The U.S. response to the Native American "problem" wasn't real nice, but it sure as hell was effective. Ask any conquered people wether violence solves anything, see what they have to say. I'm not condoning what we did, making and breaking treaties wasn't honorable. I just don't think we had any other options.

There are always other options... like actually stopping settler's from going wherever the hell they feel like.

However, you do bring up a good point. History can be depicted by illustrating that all conflict are too villanous or heroic forces clashing together. The way people have a **** fit whenever I depict something that goes against their morals is an inbred response to years of brainwashing.

"Right" and "Wrong" in any conflict are null concepts. Conflict is exactly that, conflict. The clash of two different points of view. It is the best way, but yet the most dangerous, not to see anything as being "evil" in and of itself. Osama is not evil, he is a human being who has real motivations and reasons for conducting a campaign of terror (well, he alone is not really conducting it... that's an American blame/press thing).

But here's the problem, I'm sure that some people are now going to get on my case because I feel the view that Osama bin Ladin is "evil" is nill. If I talk anywhere and suggest that Bin Ladin is not simply "evil" and does things because he is "evil" I'm going to be in trouble.

So, anybody who attempts to really understand conflict is "evil", because they are not on the side of "good".

	28-10-2001 04:31									#122
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quote: what you dont understand is that every nation does what is right for itself. it does what IT THINKS IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO. this is based on a region's background, geography, morals, and anything else that makes up the nation.

...and how many people do you think will be winning Civ3 by being voted leader of the UN.

It'll take a very different kind of game to avoid ticking off any other Civs.

	28-10-2001 04:31									#123
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I believe completely in doing what needs to be done to win no matter the cost im sorry but thats life and thats war. I think the idea of death camps should be in the game. To me a strategy game needs to be as life itself, violence, death, rape, pillaging, and genocide are the darker recesses of man's war but still very real. To me war is the greatest assurance for eternal peace. If the enemy does not fear you you will fall, but if you appease your own people and slaughter those who stand before you in my book your more of a man than anyone. Thats what has always seperated real leaders and just puppets. The few against the many, the struggle, perseverance, and the belief in what your doing is right, and willing to die for.

	28-10-2001 04:52									#124
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raping the civ2 foreign advisor?

	28-10-2001 10:22									#125
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quote: Originally posted by UKScud ...and how many people do you think will be winning Civ3 by being voted leader of the UN. It'll take a very different kind of game to avoid ticking off any other Civs.

we're not yet sure how that will work. it might be more like Master Of Orion, where you got a vote for every pop point. then you can just have an ally or two and together get yourself voted in and to hell withh the rest of the world.

in AC, I seem to recall going to other factions before a vote and buying their vote. of course some of them would refuse to sell at any price.....

	28-10-2001 10:27									#126
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anyway, I think that at least in some games, I will be an ornery SOB and raze or torture my captured citizens.
I wonder if I can do a variant on the old "nuke 'em and take 'em over -they love you" scenario? If my culture is high enough, I can convert them fairly quickly, then work and starve them to death.
starving to death those danged insurgents doesn't seem as fun somehow. much better when they are working for me.

but wait! can I stave the city and cause those lazy citizens who won't work for me to be the first to die?

	28-10-2001 10:48									#127
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bwhahahaha.

	28-10-2001 18:10									#128
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Yes best if one can this with manner to speak to reason mutinying to inhabitants of cities!

[ Inhabitants mutiny, instead to build temples to show to them who here rules! ]

[ does not please that we drive war?! too little of military individuals in town?! so to famish or to knock out mutinous! To me that kind of useless people are unnecessary ]

Just when I rule not THEY, THEY do not have nothing to prattles!, I here rule and finito!

	28-10-2001 20:10									#129
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Its also interesting the way in civ you can conquer a whole planet with little political problems. It would be better haven't different conquering strategies, the rightwing fascist way or the liberal and democratic mid-leftwing way.
Its the same as the Coldwar effectively, and the neutrals tend to be the peaceful and/or weak ones (like switzerland in ww2 possibly).

I don't want civ3 to become a sick game like some of you are talking about, just to create a realistic good versus evil storyline (with some nations inbetween) and ways to reflect the various government policies and cultural diversity of our history.

NOTE: China does have slave work camps, for political etc prisoners as far as I'm aware.. have no illusions about the evils in chinese government, they are like Soviet Russias communism was but even less stable /morale.
We can only try and bring about a democratic solution in china or there will probably be fatalities.

remeber: if we forget the holocaust and censor it , we may have to experience such genocide or worse to ourselves in the future - civ3 can be educational and inteligent as well as a fantastic gaming experience. If it can teach us how to live better together thats good - we have to know the bad in life to be able to defeat it.

	28-10-2001 23:48									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Admiral PJ I don't want civ3 to become a sick game like some of you are talking about, just to create a realistic good versus evil storyline (with some nations inbetween) and ways to reflect the various government policies and cultural diversity of our history. NOTE: China does have slave work camps, for political etc prisoners as far as I'm aware.. have no illusions about the evils in chinese government, they are like Soviet Russias communism was but even less stable /morale. We can only try and bring about a democratic solution in china or there will probably be fatalities.

Hmm... first thing is first. There's no such thing as "Good" and there's no such thing as "Evil".

Second of all, it is against the law in China to hold a political protest. And you know the international law, if you break the law in a foriegn country you are subject to its punishment. The normal prison system in China involves labor, and it does take a stretch of the imagine to equate this to "slave labor camps".

Lighten up,the America's dominance shall end one day, the light of plenty shall shine upon another nation. It's improper to judge other culture's by this standard. Look, I'm American but this attitude sucks. There's nothing "special" about this hunk of land.

PS-China is less stable? Less Morale? Maybe you want to back that up?

	29-10-2001 00:43									#131
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forced labor only works in despotisms or communisms. so you have ot be the "bad guy" governments to do it anyway.

(don't get me started on why communism isn't bad... civ3 ships tomorrow, no time to argue)

	29-10-2001 02:35									#132
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX forced labor only works in despotisms or communisms. so you have ot be the "bad guy" governments to do it anyway. (don't get me started on why communism isn't bad... civ3 ships tomorrow, no time to argue)

No forced labor under Monarchy?

	29-10-2001 02:49									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Andrew1999 Despotism and communism sacrificie people to rush construction; monarchy, republic and democracy pay gold. Republic and democracy can draft 1 citizen per city, despotism and monarchy can draft 2, and communism can draft 3.

Looks like Monarchy pays gold to rush.

	29-10-2001 06:50									#134
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That does sound like a cool idea.