08-06-2000 16:14									#31
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Spies are a great way to get those defensive units out of the those fortresses on mountains. As stated, you still need an offensive unit to finish the job, but it sure is easier to take the unit out after you sabotage him twice with spies

	08-06-2000 18:42									#32
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Nothing beats Fundamentalism in the pre or early industrial periods for war - assuming you have the requisite conquering techs. Each city you capture becomes an instant addition to your war machine. No disorder or starvation via Elvis to worry about. You need only leave a single unit behind, or in some cases, none at all. 8 free units means no slow down in producing new attackers. Tithes generate more gold than Communism. Rapid capture also means more plunder.

Later in the game, the balance of power tilts more towards Democracy and Communism.

IIRC early versions of Civ II gave Fundamentalism 10 free units and there was no max science rate, i.e. you could actually run Fundy at 80% science. Later versions toned down Fundy by reducing supported units to 8 and capping the max effective science rate at 50%.

	08-06-2000 19:59									#33
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Even the science restriction doesn't really hurt you in Fundy. By using caravans and just getting techs from cities that you take, you can still maintain a good rate of advancement. You can really crank those caravans out since you aren't lossing shields to support.

But, I will still go communism vs fundy if I have a choice (SOL).

	09-06-2000 09:48									#34
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Ming i would agree with you but not if your opponent is close by.... early on i like fundy especially if my opponent is on the same land mass. Strength in numbers of course. However if my tech lead isnt' huge, i will go commie and use WLTKD's to really capitalize on trade, science and martial law, while still churning out troops, spys and or settlers

	09-06-2000 09:57									#35
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WLYD's in Commie are great. Thanks to martial law, all you need to do is go to a 20% lux rate, and you can be producing the same level of trade as representative governments.
That's another reason why I like Commie over Fundy

	08-06-2000 22:26									#36
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Ming - to reach city celebrations with a 20% luxury rate in communism - are you assuming most cities have some trade routes or market places?

I am currently playing a game in commie - but am finding the lux rate more like 30/40% without good trade routes or MarketPlaces.

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SG (2)

	08-06-2000 22:32									#37
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Yes SG2... by the time I get to communism, I better have at least two trade routes set up for each city. Any real city will have a marketplace, and a few other improvements to help out happiness. If you have the happiness wonders, I've seen WLYD's with only 10%

	08-06-2000 22:39									#38
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I do have the Mike's & Bach's. However, the game started out as a real sleaze - quite a small continent for a large map. I have probably built too many cities on top of each other for a lower lux rate.

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SG (2)

	08-06-2000 22:48									#39
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Another trick is to maximize your cities for trade. Since shields aren't as much of a problem in Communism, you can afford to shift many of your workers to ocean or other trade squares. This really helps a lot toward getting WLYD's.

	09-06-2000 08:07									#40
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Yes, that does help. By jacking up the luxury rate to around 60% for a turn, means that most of the cities will celebrate. Then with the resulting double trade, the rate can be easily dropped down. This is the best way to play in fundy as all the caravns have a greater bonus. However, in fundy I don't mind reducing the science rate, which is poor anyway. (The difference between an advance every 17 or 27 turns is irrelevant - as advances come from trade/theft/conquest) Playing in communism, I am more reluctant to see advances drop from 5 to 6 turns so I can adjust luxuries!

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SG (2)

	09-06-2000 08:49									#41
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Dear Ming (and others),

I was going for fundy in the big aussie game but got communism first. I have all my cities building factories and the first will come online in the next couple of turns. I need to upgrade my army, build a navy, and build city walls and sea forts. The two big alliances in the game are at war, which is good for me for now but I can't assume I won't be drawn in. I can build destroyers, cruisers, skii troops and cavalry, which is pretty much what everyone else has.

What would you do in my shoes to speed up the big industrial/military upgrade? Should I change to fundy when I get it?

Yours faithfully

"Nervous Neutral"
[This message has been edited by Alexander's Horse (edited June 08, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Alexander's Horse (edited June 09, 2000).]

	09-06-2000 19:34									#42
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First, it depends on how many units per city you are supporting. If you have tons, fundy provides the advantage because you can support more units (8) for free. Plus, the money generated in fundy could allow you to buy your city improvements instead of just waiting for them to be built.

However, if you are going to fall too far behind in the science hunt... then commie will work better.

	10-06-2000 14:54									#43
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OK, fundamentalism isn't really good for anything except total war. I really think that there should be some unhappy people somehow.
but as a total war, I find it hard to beat. I often have little cities cranking out huge unlimited amounts of fanatics, while the big ones make my main war units. fanatics are good for cannon fodder, fortifying around cities in a siege (until my army gets there), and general harrasment. the enemy buys a lot of them off me, but who cares? I have a lot more where they came from. this allows me to maintain HUGE armies without supporting a single unit.
If I have the UN, I can declare war or peace almost at will. no senate will ever get on my butt, no one will ever consider revolting. nothing gets in my way. democrats can't match my ease and bloodthirst. commies slow their production if they try to have a big army.
Oh, I don't have MP though. you guys would give me a challenge.

	10-06-2000 18:24									#44
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Surely you don't need the UN in fundy!? The only purpose of researching Communism is for Espionage.
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SG (2)

	11-06-2000 08:09									#45
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Ming, thanks for the advice. I shifted into communism and can see the benefits of it.

	11-06-2000 20:44									#46
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Good luck in your game AH. Commie is one of the under rated governments

	12-06-2000 01:59									#47
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I've seen this discrepency before.My version allows 10 units no support.Others have mentioned 8.I have a couple scenarios where 8 is the number but regular game is 10.

So which is it? 8 or 10?

I hope there isn't a difference between versions.

	12-06-2000 02:54									#48
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Smash - 8 but I run a standard PC not a Mac.
Fanatics - no support at all.
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SG (2)

	12-06-2000 03:23									#49
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Democracy is the best goverenment(especially if you want a high score). Fundy is good for war if all your research is done and communism is like a compromise between Fundy and Democracy. The goverenments are pretty well balanced. On deity level many Comp. Opponents also switch to fundy is the late game, if you let them lvie that long.

------------------


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	12-06-2000 04:46									#50
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Does it say 8 in the rules.txt?

	12-06-2000 09:45									#51
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My rules.txt says 10, but I never use fundy, so I don't know if it just says that or really supports 10.

	12-06-2000 20:08									#52
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10 free units in early CivII versions. 8 in later versions plus max 50% science rate. Scenarios and modpacks do whatever they want via rules.txt.

	12-06-2000 22:25									#53
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hmmm thats odd.I have original civ2 and MGE.Both have 10 as the number.50% science is the same.I would change it but the ai can use all the help it can get.I'll change MGE.

What do later manuals say?My manuals also say 10

	12-06-2000 23:13									#54
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I downloaded the 2.42 patch again from Apolyton just to make sure that I hadn't accidentally changed the number, but the rules.txt in the patch also says 10 units.
[This message has been edited by Paul (edited June 12, 2000).]

	13-06-2000 01:00									#55
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Paul - my rules.txt says 10, too, but I think the number 8 is hard coded somewhere. I've definitely been charged support for the ninth unit in my games.

	13-06-2000 03:03									#56
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I've just gone back to an old game in fundy, and supported 9 units from one city. Shield support is one.

My original civ2, was version 1.07, which allowed ten unit support, a fundy science rate of 80% and NON cities after 128 had been built. The 2.42 patch changed all that.
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SG (2)

	13-06-2000 05:37									#57
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I see.I can set 80% science, but it has no effect after 50%.I wonder why it was changed?


NON cities?That sounds great.


Perhaps they thought Fundy WAS too powerful.

	13-06-2000 11:19									#58
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Sure - you can put science up to 80% now - with no effect. In 1.07 there was a difference! The overall rate of research was still halved - but a science rate over 50% made a difference. The NON cities applied to any kind of government.
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SG (2)

	13-06-2000 18:51									#59
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The 10 vs. 8 might be related to difficulty level. I do recall on older, non-Deity games that I would in fact get 10 free units. But this was also pre-version 2.42. Later I got FW, ver 2.78 and I also moved up to Deity at the same time. I noticed two things: only 8 free units and max effective science rate of 50%.

I know 8 is not hardcoded since you can change it to whatever you want when making a scenario.

Also, once a game is started, I'm not sure that rules.txt is consulted for cosmic principles. They may be part of the .sav file. Anybody know for sure?

	14-06-2000 07:03									#60
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AARGH--- I tried to reply to this twice,and apolyton failed to respond both times. Then my motherboard took a nosedive and I was incommunicado for a few days until we got a new one. any way this is what I wanted to say to scouse gits.

Gits, I build the UN as a democracy to keep the others off my back while I get technologically ahead and develop all the cities and land I can. the only drawback to the UN with a democracy is that it's hard to start a war without the government falling.
then, once I have all the tech I want, I go fundy and crush all my enemies. I still have the UN, so I can declare peace whenever I want to regroup between wars.
and I still think it's too powerful. I have had computer opponents go fundy while I'm developing. occaisionally they change to a democracy after they tire of me buying cities and engineers off them and change to democracy, but they always change back after a few turns, unable to deal with unhappiness.
I mean Come ON, nobody is ever unhappy?