16-05-2000 01:19									#1
	Fundamentalism is too powerful Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I have come to the conclusion that the Fundamentalist government is too powerful and upsets the balance of play in the game.
10 units PER CITY don't require support
Low corruption level.
Noone is ever unhappy, as if you built Shakespeares in every city.
Reputation hits are diminished.
No senate (or church hierarchy)overruling your decisions.

what's the disadvantages. Hmnnn... Science is halved. you don't get the trade bonuses of a representative government. that's it!

I find that the science drain isn't a bother, if you change after you've discovered everything you want, then go on to conquer your neighbors.
So just what makes anything else (besides a democracy) attractive at all. is there any reason to ever be communist, for example?
What do you all think?
[This message has been edited by Father Beast (edited May 15, 2000).]

	16-05-2000 02:10									#2
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Communist is potentially the most powerful government form.With happy wonders and trade routes you can celebrate "we love" days at no more than 30% luxuries.Now you have a corruption free Republic with no Senate interference,6 content citizens(martial law) and good production,gold and science.

I like vet spys more than fanatics

Fundy is strong but the low trade is not for me.I will go Fundy when there is nothing left to research but will celebrate "we love" to get some arrows happening.

	16-05-2000 04:56									#3
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And I would say that democracy is easily the best (for single-player at least)!

Father Beast, given the difference of opinion in just 3 posts, perhaps the government types are well balanced after all...

	16-05-2000 06:45									#5
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Although Fundamentalism is supposed to support 10, i also have seen that it really only supports 8.

	16-05-2000 07:46									#6
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I would have to agree that Fundy makes the game too easy. I stay away from it when playing SP and become a Commie when I need to fight. It makes the game more of a challenge that way. What ever happened to the Fascism patch? Does anyone play with that patch anymore?
[This message has been edited by Bohlen (edited May 15, 2000).]

	16-05-2000 08:18									#7
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I thought that democracy is too powerful:
100% rates, super trade, no bribery. With Women's Lib, Shakes Theatre, and MC you can even have an army. Watch out, Fundy boy, for an army of democratic spies with enough gold from WLTP days and a few turns of 100% taxes to buy those cities...

	16-05-2000 14:25									#8
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It really depends on what stage of the game you're at, and what type of war you're in.

Total war needs fundamentalism, communism is good for a limited (almost cold) war and democracy or republic can support a defensive war. But the problem is the earlier in the game you are, research-wise fundy or communism will really hold you back. and no matter how much money you have, you can't have a total war with someone when your senate keeps calling cease-fires?!?!

Now having wrote all that, i've analysed the 3/4 advanced govt's and haven't answered the thread - doh!!! . I don't really feel that any is too strong though, if you trim them all back and make them each less powerful in their own rights, then you make them too similar and there isn't really any difference, and it doesn't matter which one you do have!!!! they each have their bonus'. Dem for tax and sci, but no war capabilities. Commie for an all round govt & then fund for all out war! if you're good you can get around the weaknesses of each, but you try having an all out war with 30 tanks and 2 dozen paras, where your objective is to completely crush a civ to nothing when you're a democracy!!

	16-05-2000 16:51									#9
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In a standard civ game you get free support for up to ten units under Fundamentalism. In many scenarios it is eight. That's just how the respective authors figured it to be best.
As stated before, every government type has its advantages and disadvantages. The choice of government should depend on a combination of the plans you have for your civ and its abilities at any given time. I myself have come to take the path Despotism, Monarchy, Communism and when the time is right, Fundamentalism. That's because i always want to have a decent military presence and complete diplomatic liberty for my Machiavellian schemes
I feel this more than makes up for the extra science, gold and population i would have gained under Democracy.

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ugh crud, why won't they fall prey to my Machiavellian schemes?

	16-05-2000 17:55									#10
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I thought democracy was also good. Until units started ending up as enemies after being bribed!! This latest version has changed. Units that are not stacked, of course, can be bribed. A big advantage (of the past) for democracy. Is this also true in MP?

	16-05-2000 19:21									#11
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MWHC - Isn't this a bug that was fixed in 2.42?

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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor

	16-05-2000 20:16									#12
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Oldman is right, it all depends on what stage of the game you are at. Is Fundy too powerful when trying to build a spaceship? Not at all. Fundy is very (not too) powerful only in one situation - total warfare.

	17-05-2000 09:25									#13
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Isn't it obvious that Fundamentalism is a crutch for the weaker player?

	17-05-2000 06:37									#16
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I think its pretty balanced...Fundie is the strongest war time government. But in a space race, give me Democracy any day. Communism is strong during periods of tension and little, short wars (sort of like a compromise between Democracy and Fundamentalism...at least it seems that way in the game ).

	17-05-2000 06:57									#17
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i goto monarchy right quick and then to republic for dramatic growth and the setting up of trade routes....... after i have found my more hostile neighbors i then go communist for war..... dropping into democracy for some quick techs and then to fundy for a large war..... back to democracy for more techs and then stay in that mode and mop up the opposition, while i send my huge ship off to explore new worlds.


commie is great for the ics er who churns settlers, units and caravans and dips out ..... as is fundy.

No govt is too powerfull but there are keys to the timing in the game to use all for the best possible effects.

In MP... fundy is great as it allows you to throw many many units at an enemy who likely isn't in the same gov't and not able to withstand your assault .. especially if you have SOL and become fundy early

Otherwise my solution is this.... grab a nuke and watch people reel back in horror as you show the world your diplomatic stance hahahahhahahaha

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Every Wednesday night between 5pm and 9pm it is War4ever... Come pin your pike on the jackass lest you be made a fool and turned into the jackass yourself....... same icq #

	17-05-2000 15:38									#18
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I find the best way is to change to monarchy as soon as possible, then republic and maintain a defensive stance and build my cities and develop. go directly from republic to democracy and stay there until I have almost all the tech I want, then turn to fundamentalism and become this super war machine to destroy my enemies.
Fundamentalism was new to civ2 (wasn't in civ1) and I don't think they thought it out thoroughly.

	17-05-2000 19:25									#19
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Each government has it's strengths and weaknesses. Whether it is WLYD's adding population, or a reduced science level... each government is meant for specific situations. I don't think Fundy is too powerful. Heck, if I'm in pure combat mode, I like communism better. You just have to love those veteran spies... now those are POWERFUL

	18-05-2000 07:02									#20
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Watch out, Fundy boy, for an army of democratic spies with enough gold from WLTP days and a few turns of 100% taxes to buy those cities...

Watch out, Demmie boy, for an army of fundy spies with enough gold from Mike's and Adam's and a few turns of 80% taxes to buy those cities...

Dang, forgot about the Democratic immunity to corruption. What the hades was Brian thinking of with that rule?
[This message has been edited by St Leo (edited May 17, 2000).]

	19-05-2000 05:24									#21
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Communism with the Vet spies - as Ming says - is great. For real power build about 20 of them - then go Fundy!

The real problem with Fundy being so powerful, is not the form of govenment itself, but the reaction of the AI when the human player picks this option. The AI research rate slows down immediately to mirror the fundy player. Imagine the challenge the game could offer if this was different. Think about this scenario.

Suppose you are playing on a large map, and
are bribing/fighting your near neighbours into submission - the usual fundy game. However, somewhere the other side of the world are a couple of civs in demo - both allied with each other - building battleships - whilst you are still turning out knights. Then they both go communist - then you have a game.........it could be called CIV 3!?
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SG (2)

	19-05-2000 10:30									#22
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LOL @ ScouseGits.... nah thats not till civ10 at least

	19-05-2000 13:57									#23
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Oh I definitely like it SG2
Are we on for tonight?


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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor

	06-06-2000 17:35									#24
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at the risk of beating a dead horse and opening a can of worms (and many other cliches you can think of :P ), and lacking multiplayer experience (unreliable connection on the machine i have civ2 on ), My experience with fundy governments is that they play right into the hands of an expansionist, defensive democracy (such as is my tendancy). No matter how much money they bring in (often the AI switched to them from democracy), I could buy off several cities a round and then use their own units to hold the line that round.

	07-06-2000 17:25									#25
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Well, those of you who have seen my posts before know what I'm going to say, don't you...

If you find fundamentalism too unbalancing, play the ToT fantasy game, and play one of the tribes that are not allowed to have fundamentalism. That way it can only be used against you, which is pretty cool.

And by the way, in civ2, fundamentalism supplies free support for 8 units, not ten, despite what the documentation and rules file may say, right?

I almost always shoot for communism in the fantasy game. It takes a while to get there, and meanwhile you have to manage as best you can.

- toby




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toby robison
criticalpaths@mindspring.com

	08-06-2000 09:54									#26
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After some experimentation, I 100% agree with smash. Communism CAN be the best. It doesn't require much in luxury to get wltkd. I was able to kick out as much science using that as a democracy with the same cities.

Nothing beats vet spys. If you get them first you can do a hell of a lot of damage, especially in MP.

No senate, and in SP you can still demand tribute.

RAH

	07-06-2000 22:59									#27
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RAH - and you didn't even mention the free support for 3 units. The shield drain for defenders, scouts, ships, and settlers can be a killer in the early days of representative governments.

	08-06-2000 03:48									#28
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No denying the drain of units on a resourses, which is why i use diplomats and spies to explore and use guerilla tactics at home, reducing the need for supported units when I'm a rep. govt. And as for vet spies, I just let my newbie spies take target practice at a loose barbarian or enemy unit. I sent 30 spies at a stray AI explorer once, and got 28 vet spies out of it, and the explorer simply fortified allowing me to do it some more

	08-06-2000 09:35									#29
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I thought you could use spys to destroy an enemy unit by sabotage? Is that not correct?

	08-06-2000 15:47									#30
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nope, each time you sabotage you reduce the HP by 1/2 - and it cannot reach 0 in my experience. You need some actual attack unit to finish it off, although I'd think it would be neat to have a spy could wander into a MASH unit and pull out all the IV's They could use that life support beeping for that