01-11-2001 12:50									#1
	Civ III is probably the greatest game we will ever see in our lifetime Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I have never seen a game with so much polish, so much heart-felt dedication than Civ III. The AI is excellent, the game is engrossing, the diplomacy is better than I ever dreamed, the graphics are nice, the music is beautiful, replay value is truly infinite, everything is perfectly balanced, it is simply the most fun I have had with a game I can ever recall. There are virtually no flaws, no major bugs, nothing one could possibly complain about. The lack of MP on paper sounds like a bad thing, but the above-and-beyond the call of duty effort Firaxis has taken to perfect the single player game more than makes up for it. Firaxis could have put together a game half as good as Civ III and it still would have been an extremely good game, and sold like hotcakes, but they went to ungodly lengths to make the Civilization III experience one that is truly unforgettable. I thank the maker for the oppurtunity to experience this wonderful moment. In the course of human history, only a very small percent will ever get to play Civ III and I am thankful that I was one of the lucky ones. To all whom find themself at least somewhat in agreement, please keep this near the top, so newbie lurkers may be made aware of the ecstasy that is Civ III.

	01-11-2001 12:52									#2
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*PoutSniffle*

	01-11-2001 12:54									#3
	Re: Civ III is probably the greatest game we will ever see in our lifetime Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by monkspider everything is perfectly balanced

Hey it's cool that you really like it, but there's no way you can justify that statement after like 48 hours with the game.

	01-11-2001 13:07									#4
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Planning on dying soon?

What games HAVE you played?

	01-11-2001 13:07									#5
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You know you're right! And to prove that it's polished and perfect, here's a screenshot of the Western European portion of one of the world maps included with this most perfect game. I've added the lettering so you'll know where you are in all that ecstasy.

Attachment: europe.gif
This has been downloaded 1366 time(s).

	01-11-2001 13:10									#6
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Your point? So the map isn't to your liking means it isn't polished? What are you, nuts?

And, I'd like to point out... Europe is actually very very small compared to the rest of the world.

	01-11-2001 13:12									#7
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Honestly now: Don't take the "above-and-beyond the call of duty" line. You'll only get crushed.

	01-11-2001 13:16									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Your point? So the map isn't to your liking means it isn't polished? What are you, nuts? And, I'd like to point out... Europe is actually very very small compared to the rest of the world.

You're kidding, right?

	01-11-2001 13:22									#9
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quote: Originally posted by techumseh You know you're right! And to prove that it's polished and perfect, here's a screenshot of the Western European portion of one of the world maps included with this most perfect game. I've added the lettering so you'll know where you are in all that ecstasy.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA! Even civ2 was capable of a semi accurate map of europe... You know, in terms of hexes, I *think* the size capability has shrunk? Are the maps smaller than in civ2?

I mean honestly, look at that map... inexcusable at the least.

	01-11-2001 13:34									#10
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Glad to see you think so highly of the game and are enjoying it, Monkspider. It is indeed alot of fun.

It's sad to see the same posters on this forum over and over state the same problems and how faulty the game is. You would think they'd just return it and leave the forums if it's such a crappy game. Why I even continue to read forums is beyond me, because the majority are those whining about how maps aren't scaled realistically in a video game. Then again I like reading posts such as yours to see if people are having as much fun as I am.

	01-11-2001 13:46									#11
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quote: And to prove that it's polished and perfect, here's a screenshot of the Western European portion of one of the world maps included with this most perfect game

And I moved all the way from London to New Zealand for a bit of sunshine...

Look...London is at the same latitude as central spain on that world map...

I feel completely justified never having gone to one of those sunny spanish clubbing resorts for my holidays during my twenties!

The map is...well...a bit rubbish isn't it. I can't say that Firaxis seem to be following a total quality philosophy here.

Come on you mapmakers...let's do better than this.

	01-11-2001 13:51									#12
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Agreed. They barely got ANY maps out the door to begin with. Obviously enough.

	01-11-2001 13:51									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Siej It's sad to see the same posters on this forum over and over state the same problems and how faulty the game is. You would think they'd just return it and leave the forums if it's such a crappy game.

I was thinking that same exact point!! If you hate it, return it and don't post here anymore.
I really don't understand some of these people.

	01-11-2001 13:55									#14
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I have yet to meet anybody on these forums who hates the game. I have, however, met many concerned fans who think the game can be (and should have been) a lot better.

Now, if they think the game can't be fixed, they should likely accept that fact or leave. True enough.

But if they are complaining about things that should be and could likely be fixed if 'the public' makes it an issue, then they have EVERY right to be here.

This is not just a place to post lavish praise.

	01-11-2001 14:08									#15
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 I have, however, met many concerned fans who think the game can be (and should have been) a lot better.

I'm assuming that you still have hope then. What do you think the chances are that Firaxis will listen?? My opinion, is that they will resist any major changes but you never know.

Well, I know you've had a rough ride here from many (myself included) hopefully, in time, perhaps your efforts will pay off and you too will be able to enjoy the game. But in the mean time, I reserve the right to become frustrated with your lack of faith and from time to time will vent these feelings in a post or two!!

	01-11-2001 14:20									#16
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LOL! Fair enough.

To answer your question: I think Firaxis is in a bit of a bind now because they will need the first few patch cycles to deal with the normal compatability stuff and now the missing editor functions and possibly MP.

Not knowing what kind of pressure Infogrames will put on them regarding patches, however, Firaxis HAS been VERY good at listening to our feedback when it was presented in an organized and timely manner. This is the thrust of Korn's already starting the bug list.

I call it: "Maximizing the patching window of opportunity" since we all know the clock is ticking.

The good side to this is Firaxis and Infogrames both know that there will be an X-pack for this ... so as long as they address the major issues over the next six months, they can hopefully really surprise us with the X-pack then the Gold Edition. So an awful lot can be done in that 1 year or so if we keep Firaxis clearly informed of what we'd like to see (and if we keep our requests reasonable, of course).

So what's my worry?: I'm just worried about being charged for an editor and lousy MP. If the MP turns out to be incredible, then charging for it in an x-pack isn't bad at all. But I think at least some form of MP should be given free along with the editor. PBEM at least.

Peace in the Land of Civ!

	01-11-2001 14:22									#17
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wow a 13 year old trying to be deep. let's assume its the greatest game EVER after playing it for two days. ALRITE!

	01-11-2001 14:25									#18
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I wish Britain was next to Spain, mmmm warm weather.

	01-11-2001 15:00									#19
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Everyone is entitled to their opinion. If you think Civ3 is the best game out there - and you really enjoy it - then have fun. . . and I mean that sincerely.

In this crazy world, if you can find something that catches your imagination, then go with it.

Personally, I find it a good game - but I have experienced better, especially since so much was left out of the game. But I imagine 6 months from now, it will have everything that a game of this type should have. . .

	01-11-2001 15:11									#20
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quote: Originally posted by FuFu15 wow a 13 year old trying to be deep. let's assume its the greatest game EVER after playing it for two days. ALRITE!

So I see that it is perfectly socially acceptable to completely write a game off after two days, but not praise it?

	01-11-2001 15:20									#21
	Inflate your Upload Space

my world map doesn't look like that!!!

maybe because I'm playing the huge one.

my europe does not look bad. The connection from spain to france is a little thin. I haven't had much time to look at it, I'm stuck in Australia and SE Asia

	01-11-2001 15:23									#22
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One last thing. some of you here don't seem to have a grip on reality

you were expecting some perfect game out of firaxis.

guess what. It is impossible to design a perfect game

WTF were you guys expecting? Do you realize how hard it is to program a game?

And think about how small the programming team at Firaxis is. I seen the credits. They need more people. They only had 1 guy do sound, and the sound on this game isn't very much.

So I'll make it easy for you all. The game could not have been any better with the resources they had available.

either play the game or shut up

	01-11-2001 15:35									#23
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Let's hear from *everyone* who has played the new release - in a little while we'll get a better perspective.

Old civers do have a right to be cautious and circumspect before singing the developers' praises.

BTW that Europe map is simply awful - could the one who made the point about the more refined version with the bigger map please provide a pic?

	01-11-2001 15:35									#24
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider So I see that it is perfectly socially acceptable to completely write a game off after two days, but not praise it?

By all means be positive and praise the elements of the game that you feel make it the best Civ game or even strategy game so far. Saying "Civ III is probably the greatest game we will ever see in our lifetime" is just so over the top and unjustifiable that it immediately detracts from your main point. Had you said "it ought to be game of the year" there would have been less of a reaction and you would have been more justified in reacting to any nay-sayers.

Looking at the current crop of posts it seems that the game plays well on the majority of systems but there are areas that just feel rushed or left out. Why no attitude advisor, when that is a really key part of maintaining a stable empire, for example? Why such poor attempts at creating world maps, when those are the only "scenarios" you are going to end up shipping with the game? Such constructive criticism may guide Firaxis to improving the parts that really do need a little more attention , to make this "best" game even better in the long run. People aren't generally coming here just to pick faults and moan for no reason!

	01-11-2001 15:43									#25
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I tried print screen but it doesn't work

but my europe map looks better than that putrid thing

although it is a little stretched out. But that is the only way to accurately put europe on a flap world map and keep it appopiate distances from the other continents. the earth map in civ2 was ****ed up. the atlantic ocean was bigger than the pacific ocean. WTF!! why no complaints about that?! In order to semi-correct this, Europe must be stretched out. But the tile system of the game puts restrictions on how it can be stretced out. So this is where the problems on my europe map come in. And England is just too small to accurately portray using the tile system on a huge world map. England does look like sh!t on my huge world map.

	01-11-2001 15:45									#26
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My condolensces Grumbold, but I feel that my claim which my title makes is FAR more reasonable than some of threads I have seen with silly titles such as "Firaxis screw up big time!" or "Civ 3 sucks d00dz". Ironically, there seems to be a direct correlation between the authors of such silly threads and those who have yet to play the game (Not to seem like I'm picking on Yin specifically ) Just to clarify, in spite of my overly optimistic view of things, I'm all for constructive critisicm! I think that constructive criticism by the fans is one of the things that made Civ III the glowing success that it is. I just think that this thread helps balance the furies with other threads out there like "Civ 3 is sux0rs".

	01-11-2001 15:51									#27
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I think both sides are as bad as each other. One "suxors" post breeds two "roxors" which breed four "suxors" etc until we're all overwhelmed with meaningless fanboy and dissing spam and I start getting that "server is too busy right now" message again

Just read the Civ release party thread. Its nice to see that when in a polite enviroment Firaxis are prepared to admit that stuff was cut or released "as is" to meet the deadline and that they are already working on putting in some of the missing features and crushing the 43 known bugs. Posts like that I feel are more helpful than ones that insist the world (and Civ) is black or white, not shades of grey.

	01-11-2001 16:07									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Grumbold I think both sides are as bad as each other. One "suxors" post breeds two "roxors" which breed four "suxors" etc until we're all overwhelmed with meaningless fanboy and dissing spam and I start getting that "server is too busy right now" message again

I agree, but it is not fair for Civ for this forum to be constantly clogged up with nothing but ridiculously negative posts, I like to think of this thread as a flower growing through the concrete, so to speak.

quote: Just read the Civ release party thread. Its nice to see that when in a polite enviroment Firaxis are prepared to admit that stuff was cut or released "as is" to meet the deadline and that they are already working on putting in some of the missing features and crushing the 43 known bugs. Posts like that I feel are more helpful than ones that insist the world (and Civ) is black or white, not shades of grey.

Once again, I think we are in basic agreement. That was very classy on their part
I think Civ is truly a marvelous game, and as such, is deserving of much praise from the silent majority of the Apolyton community, against background of the extremely outspoken (and non-game owning) critics.

	01-11-2001 16:42									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Your point? So the map isn't to your liking means it isn't polished? What are you, nuts? And, I'd like to point out... Europe is actually very very small compared to the rest of the world.

In other words Imran has NO IDEA where France, Spain and the British Isles are relative to each other

	01-11-2001 16:46									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident One last thing. some of you here don't seem to have a grip on reality you were expecting some perfect game out of firaxis. guess what. It is impossible to design a perfect game WTF were you guys expecting? Do you realize how hard it is to program a game? And think about how small the programming team at Firaxis is. I seen the credits. They need more people. They only had 1 guy do sound, and the sound on this game isn't very much. So I'll make it easy for you all. The game could not have been any better with the resources they had available. either play the game or shut up

Is this the new standard argument in defence? Firaxis had a small set of resources so they can justifiably put out a sh*t game? Damnit man, to do a world map that was equivalent to the ones in civ2 would have taken an extra FOUR HOURS for one person, at the most. This at first glance is nitpicking - but look at what you get when this policy of laziness and rush production is repeated over and over. It adds up to a game full of those "not so important" flaws.

We did not expect a perfect game. We expected everything civ2 was and more. Instead, we recieved less than civ2 was and more - put together hastily to meet a deadline. Better yet, the "more" seems to consist mostly of trite 3-d animations which have nothing to do with game mechanics. Why did they drop all of the trivial pleasures of control in civ2 and focus development on meaningless video work? My best guess would be to dumb the game down for the masses. There is absolutely no way they "lacked the resources" to put the same amount of effort into the basic areas of control that civ2 had.

I mean, holy hell, look at some of the graphic work sn00py has done in the past 24 hours, on his own - it blows firaxis' 3 year "development" out of the water! Not to mention my own graphic development coming up, which is equally impressive... are you telling us that firaxis was so limited in resources that they couldn't hire someone to use photo-shop and 3-d studio properly??? Perhaps they were so starved for cash that they couldn't afford pictures of the real world to base graphic development on, let alone look out a f*cking window for inspiration?

STOP defending mediocracy, please. There still is hope, as the underground is full of talented people willing to spend a few extra hours of their time on mods that work. Too bad firaxis couldn't have done it themselves, especially seeing as how we all payed them 50$ a pop to do so.

Argh...