04-11-2001 09:57									#91
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quote: I thinks it's time for some anger management therapy then Yin!!

There are in rough terms two kinds of gamers: Those who will play anything and anything shoved at them on a disk. Sometimes it's good. Sometimes it's bad. But in either case they don't really care.

The other gamer DOES care and tries as much as a fan can to watch and even influence the progress of a game's development.

It's not an anger issue. Of course, when the customer is led to believe certain things and then gets others ... certainly there's room to be a bit peeved.

	04-11-2001 10:36									#92
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by yin26 It's not an anger issue. Of course, when the customer is led to believe certain things and then gets others ... certainly there's room to be a bit peeved.

Yes, perhaps anger is not completely appropriate. How about a displeasure management group then.

PS: I have the game and am presently playing at the beginner level just to get a feel for it. So far, I like it. It has that Civ feel. BUT perhaps all your talk over the past months has jaded me somewhat because I am hesitant to jump right in and love the game. It may also be that I still feel the sting of when I did that with CTP and CTP2.

	04-11-2001 12:36									#93
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

just want to make a comment about armies disappearing when cities changes side

i think the reason for them to disappear is not that they are killed by civilians/militias or anything

it's more likely that they, being in close contact with people of a higher culture, were assimilated into the other side

	04-11-2001 12:38									#94
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by yin26 HalfLotus: Well, I can buy the game from him for $35, which is quite cheap. My main concerns are over at this point now that I solved graphics problems, etc. Again, I buy a game a month (or every other month) from him. It's been like that for 5 years! That's a LOT of money I've given the guy!

Wow!!
Talk about an addict and his uncle Sam...

Yin, you obviously are quite a gameholic and when you try to break free form drug.. games, your dealer gives you some new taste for free... You really should turn him over to the police.


Back to serious with a question, inbetween my reading:
has the "move indefinetly your troops along the railway" been solved?

Oh, and those railroads look messy, now where does my railroads go?

	04-11-2001 13:05									#95
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Well, I've just been following this thread with great interest for the past hour or so.... and it seems that despite criticism to the contrary, Yin is a very level-headed, objective gamer.
The pros and cons of this game have been presented in this thread with much more clarity than any other thread on the subject that I have read... when it is released in Australia, I will definitely be purchasing a copy.
It would seem that this game will prove a challenge for the more militaristic civer... something that I am pleased to note. In previous incarnations of this game, it was all to easy to stomp across AI territory and hold cities with little difficulty, but this idea of culture has dispelled that idea once and for all. I think the Culture system would have to be one of the most innovative new concepts in civ so far... although I have yet to recieve word in this review on the trade system.
The resource system seems infinitely more realistic..... and difficult.
Anyway, I look forward to seeing Yin's review, and obtaining my own copy of Civ 3.....
Cheers,
Dracon.

	04-11-2001 13:13									#96
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

yin

i'm glad you are enjoying yourself...i am too so far

however i have noticed a few things

*the early parts of the game are by far the most fun
*they powered down aircombat too much (it got neutered, then they performed the operation again just for spite)
*all in all the modern era is fairly dissappoints

	04-11-2001 13:21									#97
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Yin:

How hard is it to build a wonder in comparison with Civ 2, since it cannot be rushed does it take less shields?

	04-11-2001 14:47									#98
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Simpleton: 'Displeasure Management"! Funny. Actually, I seem to come across a lot more angry than I really am. I should put in more smilies. I think it's good to be cautious, though. As you noted, CtP taught us some lessons. Korn's comments below, for example, seem quite important.

2H Pencil: Well, that could be, but it's still not a very satifying feeling. Maybe if they made it so you could easily bribe units far from their capital, but they wanted to take out bribing.

Jeje: LOL. Yes. The guy knows an addict when he sees one. At this point, he has given me more than a fair chance with the game. Looks like I'll be buying Civ3 next week unless anything horrid turns up in people's reviews before then. I will say, however, we are a few patches away from things working properly (balance and pacing, etc.). Soren's presence on these forums, though, gives me some hope.

Dracon II: Thanks! Well, you seem to have the perfect image of Civ3. Some of the things aren't particularly 'nice' to have happen to you (no nearby resources, fast AI expansion, etc.), but you know that going in, and you realize it for what it is: A challenge. If my posts here helped you make the decision to buy the game a bit more informed, then I'm very happy. I hope you saw Korn's comments below, though. Looks like the later ages need some overhaul.

Korn: Well, damn. I guess this means we'll need to tweak aircombat and the modern era in general. I wonder if the modern era was the last that they worked on? This could make sense. Do you feel it's patchable stuff?

Alex: The hardest thing about wonders is that the AI grabs them up like crazy! But when you are in a position to make one, it's pretty easy in terms of build time. Again: Having the chance to build on at all is the problem. I've built Epic Novel and Military Academy (hope I have the names right). That's it! Other civs have been flying by with 'em.

	04-11-2001 14:57									#99
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Some good stuff:

* (small thing) The saved game menus highlights your previous save. I don't know ... I just like that kind of thing.
* The AI really seems to know how strong you are relatively speaking. They can really abuse you in the diplomacy part ... sometimes unreasonably demanding. Again, this seems to add to the challenge.
* Perhaps I am 'lucky' being on a small continent, but you seem to be able to recover from earlier mistakes somewhat by good planning and good diplomacy. Again, perhaps that's just because I'm islolated.

Some not so good stuff:

* I already have unit animations turned off. I wish I could turn off seeing the AI moves ENTIRELY. There's a lot of drag here once more and more units get on the map.
* The replay I mentioned before is great ... but it won't let you jump in the timeline. This means you might get really bored waiting to see the one or two important moments in the game. A gamelog would be great as a txt file that we could post on the Net!
* (small thing) Your diplmocy 'words' should be selected by a check box instead of just being grouped in plain text. More than once I have almost clicked the wrong text line.
* (small thing) No way to clear the Hall of Fame from within the game?
* (small thing) No way to delete saved games from within the game?
* (small thing) No intuitive way to break trade deals when you no longer want to trade for a bad resource or terms?

	04-11-2001 15:28									#100
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I may have some insight to the apparent grouping of civilizations.
The different civs are segmented into cultural groups, a la http://www.civ3.com/devupdates/abilitiespopup.cfm
This means (so ive heard) that civs of the same cultural group are more friendly to each other in negotiations (which i think is pretty whack btw).
MAYBE the civs are made to start in similar areas as well, it seems logical. Whaddya reckon?

now to go off topic, HOW DO I STOP EMAILS NOTIFYING ME OF REPLIES TO THREADS!!!! I went to my options and toggled it to "no", but still it continues. But thats a minor problem.

Danke
Glenn

	04-11-2001 15:54									#101
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Yin:"If my posts here helped you make the decision to buy the game a bit more informed, then I'm very happy. I hope you saw Korn's comments below, though"

I just thought I would let you know that I have been following (and enjoying) this thread, and that your and Korns reviews will detemine whether or not there are 3 additional sales of Civ III in Belfast when it appears. (We had previously decided to wait for MP).

So, no pressure then -but do a good job eh?

JimMac

	04-11-2001 16:08									#102
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: So, no pressure then -but do a good job eh?

Well, I'll plan mine for a few days after Korn's ... damn, now I got pressure on me! LOL (Actually, I already put pressure on Korn, so ...)

	04-11-2001 16:54									#103
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by yin26 * (small thing) No intuitive way to break trade deals when you no longer want to trade for a bad resource or terms?

I won't speak for intuitive, since I had to look pretty hard for it, but if you haven't figured it out - Open diplomacy, propose a deal, click 'Active' at the bottom, and click on the deal you want to cancel... it will propose it as a new deal, and just click never mind.

Any deal with a (Number) beside it is not cancellable for that many more turns (without declaring war)

I wish there was a diplomacy summary screen (textual) showing my relations/treaties with all (up to 15) civs, and what trades I have with them.

	04-11-2001 17:38									#104
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Grunthex: Thanks! I think that should be improved in a patch.

O.K. Let me post this image:

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	04-11-2001 17:50									#105
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by yin26 O.K. Let me post this image:

Yin
- What year/turn?
- Who's tanks?
- Who's horses?
- Are still limited to the starting continent?

Horses versus tanks...
Somehow I wanna think of Poland and start of WWII.

	04-11-2001 17:51									#106
	Got spare money?

HOLY GOD!

"The English are Coming! The English are Coming!: OR: Never Enter a Mutual Protection Pact Unless It's With the Top Dog"

I have just witnessed the most amazing amphibious assault in Civ HISTORY!! I still have chills thinking about it.

So, I entered a Mutual Protection Pact with somebody thinking, "Hey, I need all the friends I can get!" Well (duh, Yin), this idiot goes and gets into a fight with the Top Dog, England, forcing me to join the war.

"Well," I think. "England could kick my butt easily ... too bad they are an ocean away. HA HA!"

Next thing I know, a few English battleships start cruising off my eastern shore. They lob a few shots at my coastal cities, destroying a few things. "Hey, no big deal. We all know it's gonna take ground troops, baby, and England ain't got the guts!"

Holy Christ, a few turns later another fleet of battleships come by along with some aircraft carriers. Before I know it, MASSIVE carpet bombing is hitting me and India! I grant India rights of passage and in a strage twist of fate, they greet the first wave of ground troops landing at their southern most located city. Yes, groud troops.

Almost simultaneously, a troop transport ESCORTED by two battleships and still under support of bombing aircraft begins to unload.

"Well," a bit more worried now, "wonder what he's got?"

Holy Christ again! 5 assault troops (machine gun infantry) along with some artillery completely wipe out my SW city in one turn! Just wiped it off the map! They then ripped up all my improvements in the area for good measure.

"Oh, Lord. I'm dead." But wait, it gets more impressive.

England offers me peace for 420 gold ... nearly half my stash. That's a bargain! Getting peace, England goes after India full force.

This thing was out of the Colin Powell play book: First, air assualts ripped up India's rails, bombing cities down as well, smacking any troops on the land. Then 5(!) tanks and supporting mounted riflemen (I think that was the troop) were dropped off on the SE side of the continent! They simply ROLLED over India's cities. No fewer than 3 aircraft carriers pulled in (there are under the battleships you see in the shot above) and began to pound Bombay! With bomb raining like hell-fire from English plane, support fire laid down from battleships, and tanks, artillery and machine gun infantry rolling over the land, the landscape of my little continent was changed forever.

England owns Bombay ... and is still ripping into India.

I'm am nothing but England's errand boy at this point.

Good Lord. Humbling.

	04-11-2001 17:55									#107
	Support Apolyton

Jeje: It's 1928. The orange guys are Enland. I'm the light blue. India (if you can see any!) is purple.

As you can see, I'm developing cruise missiles and space flight ... so you wouldn't thing I'm so horribly behind. But I'm nothing. A speck of dust.

	04-11-2001 17:58									#108
	Wow!!! Got spare money?

I do belive that you're not a bad player so obviously one needs new tactics for Civ3 which is nice...

So it was your horses we see in that screencapure?
(Ever thinking of thw white flag and starting a new game?)

P.S. I want my Civ3 right now - this sounda interesting & challenging

	04-11-2001 18:03									#109
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I have some mounted units sitting there on fortify. I couldn't seem to upgrade one of them (this has been reported by other as a potential bug). But England also has the mounted riflemen in that shot!

All I can say is: Yes, this is my first game. Yes, I am behind and deserve to lose.

But do I derserve to be pulled out of my home, slapped in front of every woman I ever lusted for, kicked in the gut, spat on and push to the gutter in the end just because I'm not even significant enough to kill totally?

Man, that entire attack just goes against Yin's Ethics of War, which clearly state: "Thou shall not humiliate Yin in such a gross display of superiority over him."

Buggers!

	04-11-2001 18:10									#110
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Take a look at this minimap! Notice how far away Orange was. I never imagine they could get me. Now notice the curious Orange spot where Bombay is ... and the curious grey spots on the SE part of the continent where India's two big cities USED to be!

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	04-11-2001 18:37									#111
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

OK, I've been patiently waiting for the 9th so I can get my hands on this thing, but now I'm getting a little on the keen side... Keep the story up Yin - I'm having a good read.

	04-11-2001 18:49									#112
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

yeah, who woulda thought, escorted transports and carriers and mass assaults on foreign continents?
WHAT AN IMPROVEMENT ON CIV2
I hope its not just a one off. Definitely keep this thread up yin, even with yer next game. I love reading it (what a geek)
man i want this game. yes

	04-11-2001 19:30									#113
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Yin,

Hold down the 'shift' key during AI move phase, and the little buggers go Zoom. Dunno if this mimicks turning off unit anims, as I've never tried.

quote: I'm am nothing but England's errand boy at this point.

Great story! I'm definately finding the AI strategic acumen is a bit better.


In me current game, as the Persians, Zululand, to my south, decided to wage war. Impis, swordsmen, spearmen, now some pikemen, and warriors. So I throw my rear-line cities into troop making mode, and start sweeping south with my armies of horsemen. That 'no road bonus' is a wonderful thing.

Anywho, the AI then waits until all of my troops are south; i.e. at least three turns, even across roads, from my rear, then starts dropping troops and attacking my cities!

So I teched to Chivalry and got knights. Three lost cities later, he sued for peace. :-)

	04-11-2001 19:40									#114
	Increase Your PM Length

O.K. Game Over. I will now post the final screens you see at the end of the game. Skip these parts if you don't want to see them...but they are pretty good.

This is how my continent looked at the end of the game (ended in 2006 because of space launch). You'll notice that the English did NOT expand on my continent as they probably should have. This might possibly be a weakness, as I was able to really eat up territory. You'll notice that since the English were so far from their capital, that the cultural influence of their cities on my continent was like ZERO! This mean I could and was on my way to taking them over with culture. Notice my city planted right NEXT to Bombay. A bit better planning and I could have taken it over that way. Cool!

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	04-11-2001 19:53									#115
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Histograph:

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	04-11-2001 20:05									#116
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Ranking:

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	04-11-2001 20:06									#117
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Summary Replay:

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	04-11-2001 20:06									#118
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Wow. The part I like is that Rome, France, and someone else were all destroyed, but still ranked higher than you. Humbling indeed.

	04-11-2001 20:10									#119
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Yes, indeed. This game judges your ENTIRE effort. Very cool!

Top 5 Cities:

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	04-11-2001 20:18									#120
	Full PM-box? Change here!

A few closing comments before I have to go to bed. Yes, I couldn't stop playing.

Negative:

* The music stopped playing a while ago, and some of the sounds seem too loud even when you turn down the volume on them. The battleship blasting me almost blew my headphones off! So, some sound problems ... as others have reported, I think.

Positive:

* "We know that Alaxander has betrayed our friends, the French" -- Your Foreign Relations advisor actually tells you that kind of stuff!

* When I asked the Greeks for a Right of Passage Agreement: "Keep your dirty, thieving troops off of our land. We know of your treament of India"! WOW! I'll have to take back one of my earlier statements about the AI not remember what you do.

* You can, of course, continue playing. I might continue this just to see if I can take over my continent with culture ... but I know I can, so I'll start a new game tomorrow.

* Your units are supported NOT by cities but by your entire empire. You all know this, of course, but let me say: Lord, it makes things SO MUCH less pointlessly complicated!

* Starting a war when you are a Democracy REALLY puts the hurt on you. You can do it, but your cities will have to be converted to a lot of entertainers, etc., to keep the populace from tearing stuff apart. Very good.

* Finally, the ability to upgrade troops instead of having a warrior on the map in the year 2000 is very nice, though the mounted unit won't upgrade even in a city with barracks. Bug?

Alright, enough for the day. Before the rises, I'd better run.