04-11-2001 20:25									#121
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One last thing: Although I hung in until the end (mainly through better use of diplomacy and occasionally giving in to unreasonable demands "Our territorial map will be sold to you for 220 gold ... or you die!"), I got CRUSHED in the score.

Now you can see from the mini-map how I was crammed on the smallest landmass with India, while England had a ton of land to work with. I suppose a really good world map or 'balanced' map will come out to play on so you can avoid this kind of thing, but I quite enjoy the ups and downs and challenges of the random map. I could still have won on this map, I think, by taking out India fast, landing some troops nearby, keeping close and correct allies, striking at the right time, etc. In other words: By playing awfully damn well! But I didn't. And paid the price. LOL

Again, that English amphibious assault was truly awesome!

Yes, things bogged down in the end game to some degree, and I can imagine that being even MORE the case if you are the clear leader, which I why I kind of enjoyed being the smallfry.

I didn't reload in this game except for once to test how many troops you need to go on the offensive. Answer: More than you think.

	04-11-2001 20:44									#122
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Yup,
sure was interesting and informative to read about your play...
Locking forward to your next game and to see if it takes one or more games before you learn the gametriks to win.

Just wondering what lousy excuse you could still give to your game reseller when taking Civ3 back? (I assume that you're keeping Civ3 already, right?)


About not being able to use enemy roads&railroads - was it good or bad in your opinion?

	04-11-2001 20:58									#123
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Yin:
How did you like Civ3 compared to EU?


Now I've understood that you can form mutal defence pacts (or whatever), so that if you or your pactbrother is attacked, there is a coalition for defending. But after a war has broken this way, you have to make peace individually.

I sorta whish they had copied the EU model of the pactleaderspeace ending the war totally. Or do you think it works better this way?

P.S. It's gonna be interesting to see how EU and EU2 compares to Civ3 - which is the strategygame of the year?

	04-11-2001 22:55									#124
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Yin - Thank you so much for the game description, observations, and screenshots. I didn't follow the development threads very much, so this has really helped me make up my mind.

While the Civ2 SP was interesting as a learning experience for MP, it felt more like a class than a real game. Civ3 appears to be a worthwhile game in SP mode on its own.

I will definately be going out to buy it very soon. Fortunately, the cost of also buying the MP game later is not an issue for me.

	04-11-2001 23:19									#125
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 O.K. Game Over. I will now post the final screens you see at the end of the game. Skip these parts if you don't want to see them...but they are pretty good. This is how my continent looked at the end of the game (ended in 2006 because of space launch). You'll notice that the English did NOT expand on my continent as they probably should have. This might possibly be a weakness, as I was able to really eat up territory. You'll notice that since the English were so far from their capital, that the cultural influence of their cities on my continent was like ZERO! This mean I could and was on my way to taking them over with culture. Notice my city planted right NEXT to Bombay. A bit better planning and I could have taken it over that way. Cool!

Sorry for replying old posts of yours... just not one to read the end before the beginning....

How could it be a weakness? Like you said, could of taken his cities with Culture. Maybe the AI knows that and I am sure that Amphibious Assault was expensive :P So the AI's goal was mainly to smack you to simply show you who is the boss. As for the Indians, i don't know what they done or said to the English...maybe the english simply don't like people declaring independence from their empire The English proved that they can take you out if they wish...but they did saw you a bit harder target then the Indians, and less expensive to attack. And the English knows that they can't expect to keep the captured cities... they already have enough of their own and don't need to waste resources on your continent.

Atleast your continent didn't have a very important resource which the english doesn't have :P

-LMP

PS: sorry if my writing sucks

	04-11-2001 23:27									#126
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Double Post

	05-11-2001 00:48									#127
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Awesome replay. Thanks Yin.

The cool thing is that the game lets the player use the same tactic that got you involved in that war with England. If you're quick on the diplomacy ball, you can also get the mutual protection promises of all the top civs and then launch your own attack, bringing them in.

I just wrote a nasty article *****ing about the uselessness of the advisors last night and this morning, just found out through more play that about 99% of what I asked for was actually in there, it just didn't become apparent until about 1800AD or so. I feel terribly guilty for wrongly Civ3 bashing. The game is throwing out subtle surprises left and right.

	05-11-2001 02:51									#128
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Jeje: To be honest, since India and I were so close together, I hardly noticed not being able to get the road bonuses. I'm sure, though, that will be something I'll notice more in my next game. Compared to EU (good question), I'd say that Civ3 is a lot less subtle. In a kind of charming way, though, that makes it fun. However, I rather enjoy the seriousness and the subtlety of EU. Hard to explain. EU feels rather abstract but 'real' in a way while Civ3 feels more human but deliberately light-hearted. Yes, many of the EU things would be so awesome in Civ3. As for buying the game: I still am gonna feel a bit of a chump buying the game when there's no word from Firaxis on the editor and MP. But I now look at it this way: The game, as is, will give me a solid 15-20 hours more of gameplay. With some patches (let's hope) and mods from the community, there could yet be more to this game than Civ2.

cavebear: Glad you enjoyed it. Not a perfect game, but surprisingly good in some areas. If Firaxis really works on some patching, the game could be truly awesome.

LordLMP: Good point. I think you are right, because the AI kind of just depleted and abandoned those cities anyway.

Peterk: Yeah, I also had to retract a statement about the diplomacy AI.

	05-11-2001 03:03									#129
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 cavebear: Glad you enjoyed it. Not a perfect game, but surprisingly good in some areas. If Firaxis really works on some patching, the game could be truly awesome.

To here this from the "king pessimist" own mouth, certainly feels reassuring to say the least. I dont think anybody can accuse you for reviewing this game from a default rosy Firaxis-defending perspective, no matter what.

Great! Now its only 2 looong weeks left (16 november) before I finally can play this damn game...

	05-11-2001 04:10									#130
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Yin: Very nice story. That sea invasion really excited me, and I was just reading...

	05-11-2001 04:22									#131
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Great stuff yin!!! I look forward to your full review...

I get the impression that you like Civ III and think in a patch or
2 it could be a very good game for a long time to come????

	05-11-2001 04:52									#132
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The English are called 'Perfidious Albion' for a reason, Yin!

Seriously: In my own game I sense similar threats to my realm already building up. The World Wonder screen is showing Liz Tudor and good old Otto already medieval, while I have not researched Currency and Code of Law yet. If England or Germany are going to invade my continent, then I am history!

What just about everybody playing first time is going to underestimate is how much he must plan ahead in CivIII. Spontaneous decisions is not the name of this game; long-range planning was important in CivII, now it is double as important. Your empire has a lot of inertia, it is quite impossible to change direction fast.

	05-11-2001 05:03									#133
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Here is a screenshot from my game:

It is 640AD. The good thing is my capital has influence 4 already. It is the world´s leading culture city. The bad thing is I am still in the Ancient Era, not having Currency and Law yet. In other words, my people are moneyless and lawless, but very sophisticated. We will see how things turn out.

Attachment: csr~1.jpg
This has been downloaded 534 time(s).

	05-11-2001 05:17									#134
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I am glad you liked the game Yin.

They have indeed improved the core gameplay a quite a lot. If they had only taken a couple of more months and polished it they could really have made it a masterpiece. As it is I haven't made up my mind whether I am keeping it.

	05-11-2001 05:30									#135
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Some observations:
1) the one more turn syndrome has (and will continue to) wreck my life.
2) some things are choppy, but none are completely intollerable.
3) it took me several 20 turn games to find the type of map I want to play (which is good, I like choices)
4) warlord (regent) level is actually CHALLENGING IN A FUN WAY.
5) no leaders, golden ages yet (for me)

regent=civ2's king, yes?

the next four difficulty levels will be quite a tough booby.

Yin, sounds like you enjoy the game...

	05-11-2001 07:29									#136
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thnx for the posts, yin

what ever happened to korn's thread (or promised review); can't seem to find it anywhere.

	05-11-2001 07:43									#137
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Yes, I freely admit I am enjoying myself!

"yang27"! LOL! Well, let's not rush Korn, the genius analyzer. He'll have one up today or very soon, I'm sure.

Started second game. This time will a little thing I call "counter spreading": Take a look a the screen. I built TOWARD my neighbor (after agressively scouting from turn 1) and now have him hemmed in! I am totally free now to expand backwards into a totally open landmass!

But who is my neighbor once again? India. Hmm, not sure I like this forced pairing (I'm China again but renamed all cities to Korean):

Attachment: counter_spreading.jpg
This has been downloaded 463 time(s).

	05-11-2001 09:23									#138
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Playing Babylonians in my second game, on regent level, and even with a crappy starting possition, the bowmen (2/2 beef) made a huge dent in my favor. ASAP I cranked em out, beat up the little AI warriors, took a couple of cities, triggered a golden age, built more. They're tough little boogers until pikemen, and by then they're still decent defenders. So now I have land.

My plan: use the religious aspect of the Babs to crank out culture over a spread of small cities. Then, utilize the scientific aspect...
He he he. Screw it, compared to other games I've played lately, I give Civ3 a 10/10



what difficulty level was it that you were playin' on Yin?

I seem to recall emperor?

Last edited by cassembler on 05-11-2001 at 09:28

	05-11-2001 10:54									#139
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Wow, those bowman sound like a good early game boost. Keep me posted. The previous game and the current one are both on Regent. I feel *much* better about this one, though, because I learned my lesson about slow starts and leaving land for the AI early. I'm still having occasionaly problems timing my settlers. Something the AI seems to have down perfectly.

By the way, now that I know a bit better what is going on in the early game, I'm not as convinced as I was before that the AI is cheating ... it just seems highly optimized for settler pops in the early game, which in turn give him a great econ base and unit base with which to start cranking out units. Maybe?

	05-11-2001 10:55									#140
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Yin: Why are you building your cities so close to each other??
(Notised same in previous game too)

P.S. Has your jobdescription changed to Civ3-tester or did you phone work complaining a high fever this morning?

	05-11-2001 11:00									#141
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There is only a little overlap between them. In this case, I had to choose a good foundation spot to maximize the first square ... otherwise I would have liked to spread out a bit more. Those 3 cities you see there are actually a 'culture wall' against India. The cities I will found in the other direction will be more spaced out. Good question, though. Maybe it's also part of my old ICS habit?

	05-11-2001 11:01									#142
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Actually, I *did* take this morning off! Now I'm back at the office.

	05-11-2001 11:12									#143
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Yin?

Can ships defend cities a la civ1 and civ2...and if so what penalty is there for doing so?

Plus did you get precision bombing to work? Apparently there are issues with that (I think one person in civfanatics has got it working).

Thanks.

	05-11-2001 11:13									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Grunthex I won't speak for intuitive, since I had to look pretty hard for it, but if you haven't figured it out - Open diplomacy, propose a deal, click 'Active' at the bottom, and click on the deal you want to cancel... it will propose it as a new deal, and just click never mind. Any deal with a (Number) beside it is not cancellable for that many more turns (without declaring war) I wish there was a diplomacy summary screen (textual) showing my relations/treaties with all (up to 15) civs, and what trades I have with them.

So thats where they hid it. The manual gets a big

	05-11-2001 11:20									#145
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kittenOFchaos: Not sure ... on either question. I never really got far enough with naval combat because I didn't think I'd need it. Wrong! And I never tried precision bombing because I was trying simply to stay in the game for the entire last half by keeping people happy with me.

However, I look forward to testing those two things in Game 2.

	05-11-2001 16:28									#146
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O.K. Here is India's answer, which has some problems:

Attachment: india_tries_spreading.jpg
This has been downloaded 329 time(s).

	05-11-2001 16:33									#147
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Some problems with this AI 'expand at all costs': When it's done against a player who is not used to it or who does not immediately pin in the AI (or if the AI has a good amount of land to his back), it sets up a great early game for the AI. However, India has a popluation of 23 while I have 34! And it gets worse for India:

By being determined to send off his settlers into my terroritory, he has sacrificed building culture along his main line of cities. Thus, I have already swallowed up one of his primaries by cultural assimilation! What's worse, is those little 1 and 2 pop cities far from his capital stand no chance against my culture creep ... or attacks should it come to that. He also built a city entirely on tundra just for the sake of expansion.

I've also noticed this time that since India is hurting relative to me, he is far too forgiving on trades! I got iron working for my territory map, for instance!

	05-11-2001 17:23									#148
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How did his settlers get past you in the first palce?
(Did you have an "right of passage" agreement or??)

	05-11-2001 17:36									#149
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Well, that's one of the REALLY frustrating things: "Oh, sure. Sorry. We'll remove them" -- on the FAR side of your civ, that is! I think the AI looks into your territory and if it isn't several squares deep, it feels it can cut across you.

	05-11-2001 17:42									#150
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I must admit those ‘soft borders’ are annoying the hell out of me. I’m pretty sure the movement of a Russian armored division into Western-Germany would have triggered a war...

-Alech