04-11-2001 12:42									#1
	Enemy Bombers: Invulnerable? Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Just curious, has anyone on this forum ever been able to shoot down an enemy bomber? I've tried and tried with fleets of fighters for 3 games now and have not succeeded once.

According to the strategy forum, there are quite a few people with the same problem.

It's really, really, really irritating.

I don't know how anyone who reviewed this game could not have noticed...

	04-11-2001 16:49									#2
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No- actually it is looking like a major bug.

	04-11-2001 17:03									#3
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I found the imbalance between fighters and bombers in Civ2 pretty irritating... there was just no way a fighter could shoot down a bomber with the same chance for the AI and the human player... it was always outbalanced... when I attacked a bomber, I had to spend several fighters on it... wheeras my bombers were doomed as soon as the enemy had discovered flight...

	04-11-2001 17:07									#4
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Yeah, it must be a bug.

	04-11-2001 17:07									#5
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion I found the imbalance between fighters and bombers in Civ2 pretty irritating... there was just no way a fighter could shoot down a bomber with the same chance for the AI and the human player... it was always outbalanced... when I attacked a bomber, I had to spend several fighters on it... wheeras my bombers were doomed as soon as the enemy had discovered flight...

I never encountered an AI using bombers in Civ 2 so it will be breath of fresh air to see Bombers flying in from enemy citys in civ 3, but i hope they fix the apparent lack of intercept ability before i get my copy

	04-11-2001 18:34									#6
	Put an end to popups!

oh well, the AI in Civ2 doesn't use standard bombwers very often, stealth bombers are a popular toy though...

heck, I was excited when I saw the first WWII-like warfare between two AI civs... the japanese bombed chinese cities and attacked them with riflemen/armors... I was stunned, had never seen it before, ans haven't seen it often since

	04-11-2001 20:30									#7
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I don't understand. Shouldn't this have been caught during testing? It seems like such a simple bug. I think a lot of the problems can be attributed to the closed beta. I have never been a fan of closed betas.

	04-11-2001 22:00									#8
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I know what you mean, it seems the playtesting has been skipped...

	04-11-2001 22:21									#9
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i think the closed beta consisted of 2 parrots pecking at a keyboard while civ3 was running.

	04-11-2001 22:41									#10
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Some of the bugs are so obvious - you have to wonder. . .

	04-11-2001 22:54									#11
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I am following this thread with interest for the patch.

Let me spell a few things out. Bombers have a 50% chance of being interecepted if you set your fighter on Air Superiority. The "interception range" of a Fighter is half of its Operational Range. Stealth Bombers, however, have only a 5% chance of being intercepted.

Thus, if the AI attacks you with a lot of Stealth Bombers, you will probably rarely see them be intercepted.

So, what have people experienced?

	04-11-2001 23:41									#12
	Put an end to popups!

Here's my experience:

I had two fighters in a city with air superiority. AI bombed me (with normal bombers, not stealth) for about 5 turns with at least 5 bombers and I had none interceptions. So 25 times and no interceptions with two fighters. So I think there must be something wrong or just a horrible bad luck?

	04-11-2001 23:49									#13
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We can do this by numbers to prove it. Let's suppose you're attacked by 10 bombers in a row and all your cities have a fighter on intercept. If the chance of intercepting is indeed 50% for a bomber the chance of NOT scoring a single intercept would be 0,5^10=0,098% which means the chance for at least one SUCCESFUL intercept would be 99,902%. So you would have definitely have to score at least one hit if you're attacked by a series of 10 bombers.


For stealth bombers (5% intercept chance) the odds for NOT scoring an intercept would be 0,95^10=59,874%. So the chance that you wouldn't score a single intercept would be 40,126%


So if you're being attacked by stealth bombers it's possible to score not a single hit. But if this non intercept happens with ordinary bombers someone must have forgotten to place a comma in the intercept formula.

	04-11-2001 23:58									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Wexu Here's my experience: I had two fighters in a city with air superiority. AI bombed me (with normal bombers, not stealth) for about 5 turns with at least 5 bombers and I had none interceptions. So 25 times and no interceptions with two fighters. So I think there must be something wrong or just a horrible bad luck?

ok, this is sounding like a bug...

Would it be possible that your fighter were set on "Fortify" instead of "Air Superiority." It's an easy mistake to make if you just hit the "F" key.

Also, the "defensive range" of a Fighter is only two squares. So the bombers were all attacking squares which were no farther than two squares from your Fighter?

	05-11-2001 00:28									#15
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Im experiencing 'slight' frustration too :P
I have four cities, almost side by side, only two squares between them and they form a row, each city has 5-7 jet fighters, airport plus SAM missile battery and mechanized infantry. Enemy is attacking my cities with _normal_, old bombers.. not stealth bombers. each turn.. I set my fighters to Air Superiority (yes im sure) but not once have I shot a bomber down,. and not once have my SAM batteries shot a plane down. The enemy planes have been attacking the city itself, and the mines, roads etc in the squares between them, never more than 2 squares away.
If I have jet fighter with operational range of 6.. is it really considered that the intercept radius is.. half of the operational radius and thats... 3 squares? If so.. many of my fighters even 'double' cover the aerospace around the cities.

	05-11-2001 00:58									#16
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I've tested this A LOT now...

I can have as much as 10 jet fighters in a town all specifically set to "air superiority" *AND* have a carrier next to it with several fighters in "air superiority" and NEVER shoot down a single basic bomber when they're slamming my city or neighboring improvements. Yet, the enemy destroys my bombers easily.

What the hell?

The game is great for me up until this point. I think this is a bug. If it's not, it needs to be playbalanced for sure...

I ask again: has anyone ever managed to shoot down a bomber with a jet fighter?

	05-11-2001 01:06									#17
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

is intercepted = destroyed??

So if your fighter manages to intercept the bomber is it a dogfight or only a totally missed bombing run? (Don't have the game, but reading Sorens message I'm thinking about the later one more)

So Soren Johnson if a fighter manges to intercept an enemy bomber what should happen??

	05-11-2001 01:18									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Soren Johnson Firaxis ok, this is sounding like a bug... Would it be possible that your fighter were set on "Fortify" instead of "Air Superiority." It's an easy mistake to make if you just hit the "F" key. Also, the "defensive range" of a Fighter is only two squares. So the bombers were all attacking squares which were no farther than two squares from your Fighter?

I put them to air superiority, I even checked it after the first bomber run when I first thought that I put them to fortify. Even though I can't see NO reason why someone would like to put a fighter to fortify, but not to intercept enemy bombers, so I suggest that fortify and air superiority would be the same thing with same button. This would prevent accidents which you just told about.

The bombers most of the time hit my city where the fighters were, couple of times they hit adjacent squares (all 1 square away from city).

	05-11-2001 01:38									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Wexu I put them to air superiority, I even checked it after the first bomber run when I first thought that I put them to fortify. Even though I can't see NO reason why someone would like to put a fighter to fortify, but not to intercept enemy bombers, so I suggest that fortify and air superiority would be the same thing with same button. This would prevent accidents which you just told about. The bombers most of the time hit my city where the fighters were, couple of times they hit adjacent squares (all 1 square away from city).

I just sent you an e-mail so that we can discuss this off-line and figure out what is going on... I just tested it out and had no problem intercepting an AI bomber.

	05-11-2001 01:43									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Soren Johnson Firaxis I just sent you an e-mail so that we can discuss this off-line and figure out what is going on... I just tested it out and had no problem intercepting an AI bomber.

whoops, never mind... you have specified no e-mails...

could you possibly post a saved game? thanks...

	05-11-2001 01:55									#21
	Inflate your Upload Space

My email is wexu@pelit-online.org

I just loaded the game but the situation is gone now and the AI is not bombing that city anymore.

	05-11-2001 01:58									#22
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I got the same problem too, I have 2 fighters on the carrier and 2 more on the city but of course I have never seen any interception at all. Please fix this bug.

I even thought that maybe the fighter will intercept by next turn by itself therefore I don't get to see the action. So far I think most people are having the same problem here.

Another bug that I'm having is with the cruise missile. I have tried many different way to load my cruise missile into sub marine but never be able to do so.

To load unit into transport is L to load anything is L but it didn't work for the cruise missile to sub. Please advise for those had found out the solution.

	05-11-2001 02:07									#23
	Soren... Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Thanks for your almost immediate response on the weekend... wow..

Yeah, I'm definitely going to start a new game from scratch again and see if the same thing happens.

I've spoken to a couple of people about it on the "strategy" forum and they were having the same problem. I'm positive I am definitely selecting the "air superiority" option, but I don't know why it works for you. Maybe it only happens some of the time?

I'm also interested in hearing from any other Civ'ers who have had a successful interception mission ..

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	05-11-2001 02:11									#24
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quote: Originally posted by wakamoto I got the same problem too, I have 2 fighters on the carrier and 2 more on the city but of course I have never seen any interception at all. Please fix this bug. I even thought that maybe the fighter will intercept by next turn by itself therefore I don't get to see the action. So far I think most people are having the same problem here. Another bug that I'm having is with the cruise missile. I have tried many different way to load my cruise missile into sub marine but never be able to do so. To load unit into transport is L to load anything is L but it didn't work for the cruise missile to sub. Please advise for those had found out the solution.

Nuke Subs only carry Tactical Nukes...

	05-11-2001 02:40									#25
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Thanks for the input.

I still have the problem with normal cruise missile, my normal cruise missile can't be loaded into normal sub marine.
Please advise, thanks

	05-11-2001 02:47									#26
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quote: Originally posted by wakamoto Thanks for the input. I still have the problem with normal cruise missile, my normal cruise missile can't be loaded into normal sub marine. Please advise, thanks

whoops... sorry for the confusion. Regular submarines cannot carry anything, including Cruise Missiles...

	05-11-2001 05:33									#27
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If you are interested here is my save game where there are no interceptions. Posted this save on the official patch thread as well. I have fighters/jet fighters that can't intercept normal bombers. The bombers are passing within the operational range of my air superiority missions. The problem occurs on two different computers I have tried this on.

Unfortunately most of the bombing attacks occured a couple of turns before this save but there are still some.

Interestingly the game crashed right before I had this problem.

Could this bug possibly be fixed before the rest relatively quickly? It is making the game close to unplayable for me if I get into an air war in the industrial/modern age.

Attachment: alexander of the greeks, 1958 ad.zip
This has been downloaded 23 time(s).

	05-11-2001 07:33									#28
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I would like to ask a few more questions Regarding the Bomber and Fighter interception.

Once you set the fighter to Air superiority it's set to intercept bomber or fighter with the 50% chance of interception and less for chance for the stealth unit.

How do I increase my chance of interceptions? Any hints? I have 2 regular fighters next to the city in the air carrier and 2 jet fighter in the city but non of them did any interception.

THe enemy launched almost 6 bomber over my city and no interception is happening.

However, if I send my bomber to their city with 3 bomber one of my bomber got hit.

I would like to know how to increase my chance of shooting down enemy bombers. should I have at least 4 in the city? and 4 in the carrier that mean my carrier will be pack with just 4 fighters no bombers any more, since the carrier can only carry 4 air units.

Thanks for the input.

	05-11-2001 08:50									#29
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I tried civplayer's game and it looked like jetfighter did some damage to Bomber. I didn't get any pop up message but in the moment the bomber was passing the city his status dropped to yellow zone.

Firaxis, is there a popup message if we succefully hit the bomber?

Tried 2nd time - no damage what so ever.

BTW Civplayer, you get really screwed in 1960. 5 tanks and 2 Mech infantry, not much you can do against with conscript infantrymen and hoptiles.(didn't appear in few reloads though)

Last edited by freezuch on 05-11-2001 at 08:58

	05-11-2001 09:07									#30
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Yes I went on to lose that one...I'm not as good at this game as CIV II.....lost on chieftain too...oh well.

It is interesting you noticed the enemy bomber hitpoints decrease. I hadn't even noticed that as well as no pop-up on interception.