10-11-2001 20:32									#1
	Soren Johnson, I hate you! Support Apolyton

Ok, I keep forgetting... is this game supposed to be fun or is it some kind of test of patience or maybe a test of how much frustration an average human can withstand? Here's my problem:
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze28272/trade.jpg

This is not diety level where you'd expect somethign as absurd as that, that's on REGENT level! Why did you code the AI to be so demanding? It apparently dosent have anything to do with culture/military ebcause I blow the Aztecs away in both. And it's not only the Aztecs, it's every civ in the game... They demand way too much and it's just not fun. This really ruins the game for me and many other people as I've seen, because you jsut can't deal with the AI diplomatically. So as a simple request, in the next patch, would you please allow at least a flag we can toggle from "SPOILED_RIDICULOUS_UNREALISTIC_AI" to "REASONABLE_AND_FUN_AI"? I'd really appreciate this, as many other people would too. Thanks for your time.

	10-11-2001 20:34									#2
	Support Apolyton

Silly me, I forgot to switch over to the General Forum. Now I doubt he'll read it here.

	10-11-2001 20:56									#3
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

You can copy and paste it and post in General Questions Forum.

	10-11-2001 22:28									#4
	Re: Soren Johnson, I hate you! Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by TheDarkside Ok, I keep forgetting... is this game supposed to be fun or is it some kind of test of patience or maybe a test of how much frustration an average human can withstand? Here's my problem: http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze28272/trade.jpg This is not diety level where you'd expect somethign as absurd as that, that's on REGENT level! Why did you code the AI to be so demanding? It apparently dosent have anything to do with culture/military ebcause I blow the Aztecs away in both. And it's not only the Aztecs, it's every civ in the game... They demand way too much and it's just not fun. This really ruins the game for me and many other people as I've seen, because you jsut can't deal with the AI diplomatically. So as a simple request, in the next patch, would you please allow at least a flag we can toggle from "SPOILED_RIDICULOUS_UNREALISTIC_AI" to "REASONABLE_AND_FUN_AI"? I'd really appreciate this, as many other people would too. Thanks for your time.

Well, looks to me like ol' Montezuma doesn't really need any of those. If he's advanced enough, horses are obsolete for him, and if he's got a small enough empire, then luxuries don't mean much either. Besides, incense is higher on the price scale than either dyes or ivory. Doesn't seem too odd to me.

	10-11-2001 22:36									#5
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by TheDarkside Silly me, I forgot to switch over to the General Forum. Now I doubt he'll read it here.

I doubt he'll read it at all, you whiny brat.

	10-11-2001 22:52									#6
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Zurai- I wouldnt post this if it was a one-time thing. Every game I play the civs demand too much. I clearly remember playing the Persians with loads of incense, and I still had to trade Incense + other resources for anything I hoped to trade for.

Christantine- "whiny brat"... can I gauge your intelligence based on this remark?

	11-11-2001 01:23									#7
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Uh... did you ever think to not trade with him?

Yes, the AI has asked unrealistic things to me, but I just go to those that will accept better deals. It ALL depends on culture, btw. Higher culture, the more respect you have in military and trade.

	11-11-2001 01:32									#8
	Got spare money?

They are insulted by equitable trades. You have to give half your gold as well if you just want to trade luxuries! If the AI doesn't have ivory then they should be grateful to get some offered in trade!!!

" Dyes for Ivory?? Are you JOKING? We also want to bankrupt you, take 2 pints of your blood, your right arm, and your firstbon son!! Oh and then we'll still attack you in 5 turns and then be all pissed at you for a war we instigated."

	11-11-2001 01:34									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

*shrug*. I actually think it's way too easy to swindle the AI in trades and amass most, if not all the techs, most of the world map, contact with almost all civs, and come out ahead in money in comparison to everybody else. I've done this on regent in my last game and quit because the game was boring. And from what I've read in other posts, it's how to win and overcome your disadvantages on the higher levels.

I am hoping they patch some of these loopholes, because I have to prevent myself from doing so in order to have a fun game.

If you don't know what I'm talking about, ask, and I can give you some examples.

	11-11-2001 01:35									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I haven't encountered this sort of thing 'all the time', only on a few occassions. On the other hand, I've often been able to make reasonable deals.

	11-11-2001 01:35									#11
	Inflate your Upload Space

In my experience, when the AI makes an unreasonable demand, as in your case, I just take what they want from me and offer it to them piece meal. You get much better deals that way IMO.

	11-11-2001 01:35									#12
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Stop *****ing - you're getting close to a deal there

	11-11-2001 01:52									#13
	Tired of ads?

If you are going to use such strong language to flame a guy who worked his ass off to create the most sophisticated strategy AI in existence today, it would be nice if you knew what you were talking about. How about playing the game some more?
Then you might realize that the AI's offers are based on how much it in particular values whatever you are offering. All you've proven is that these Aztecs don't want any of your crap. I've had enemy civs give me cutting-edge techs for dyes. I've had them give me techs early on for 17 gold. I've had them give me up to 30 gold/turn each for my cutting-edge tech. And I've also had them be tough on me when they don't need what I've got. There are some documented problems with the AI that will be patch-fixed (like the inifinite gold thing) but this is not one of them.

	11-11-2001 01:58									#14
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by TheDarkside Zurai- I wouldnt post this if it was a one-time thing. Every game I play the civs demand too much. I clearly remember playing the Persians with loads of incense, and I still had to trade Incense + other resources for anything I hoped to trade for. Christantine- "whiny brat"... can I gauge your intelligence based on this remark?

If I am in charge of a small/medium empire, they squeeze every penny out of me. If I'm stronger, they pay more. Seems normal. Just like real life. The West is squeezing every penny out of the third world.

And talking about intelligence... The name of this thread is simply genius! Oh, the wit!

	11-11-2001 02:04									#15
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by randomturn I've had them give me techs early on for 17 gold. I've had them give me up to 30 gold/turn each for my cutting-edge tech. And I've also had them be tough on me when they don't need what I've got. There are some documented problems with the AI that will be patch-fixed (like the inifinite gold thing) but this is not one of them.

Could you explain what you mean exactly by the infinite gold thing?

I realize one trick is to give whatever 1 civ wants for one tech that only it has or maybe one other civ has, no matter how much it asks.

Then you go around to every civ and sell it to them for gold/turn. You end up with massive gold/turn that is just sick if you keep doing this for everything that people wants that is not in limited supply, like 1 resource.

	11-11-2001 02:04									#16
	Full PM-box? Change here!

The only problem on Regent is that the AIs are all too willing to give up their entire treasuries and income to subsidize the human player's tech machines. When I want something from them, I usually pay cash.

	11-11-2001 02:07									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Jason The only problem on Regent is that the AIs are all too willing to give up their entire treasuries and income to subsidize the human player's tech machines. When I want something from them, I usually pay cash.

Well supposedly you can do this to a lesser extent on the higher levels, which you use, among other exploits, to overcome your disadvantages at those levels to beat the AI.

	11-11-2001 02:10									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Earthling7 If I am in charge of a small/medium empire, they squeeze every penny out of me. If I'm stronger, they pay more. Seems normal. Just like real life. The West is squeezing every penny out of the third world. And talking about intelligence... The name of this thread is simply genius! Oh, the wit!

Actually I was on the bottom of the list in my last game, and I was still able to swindle the AI. It doesn't matter. And besides, you are going to be on the bottom on the higher difficulty levels for almost all of the early-mid game, and you pretty much have to use these exploits to win.

	11-11-2001 02:38									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze28272/trade.jpg

And please next time try to post a smaller than 1Mbyte jpg.
Not everyone is browsing in a T3.

	11-11-2001 02:45									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I was wondering if the AI learns how I trade. If they try to swindle me I just say no and leave. Later when they ask, or I try again, I get better deals. I wondered if they are just testing how much of a fool I was before offering me a better deal. Just like a used car salesman would do.

	11-11-2001 02:52									#21
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Man, that's really lame. You're complaining that trading on the higher levels is 'too unreasonable.' News flash: deity is INTENDED to be difficult, unlike Civ2 where beating deity required little effort. I suppose your wounded ego can't handle the fact that deity is just too tough for you, so now you're going to whine about it. Suck it up and learn how to play!

	11-11-2001 03:13									#22
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Shoot man. People are never happy. People complain about Civ2's AI being too easy so Firaxis answers in Civ3 with a hard AI and then people whine about that. I never wanna be a game designer, it would be too frustrating.

	11-11-2001 03:14									#23
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

This thread's title is obscene.

	11-11-2001 03:28									#24
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Libertarian This thread's title is obscene.

This thread's title should be changed and the poster punished. Warned at least. This annoyes the hell out of me.

	11-11-2001 03:43									#25
	Increase Your PM Length

First off... the thread's title was a VERY bad way to gain sympathy for your cause and was in bad taste... you need to learn to be civil if you are expecting a decent reply.

As far as trading goes I feel that the AI is too stingy about resources... I would think that fur for wines would be acceptable or at least "close to a deal". And I do believe this needs to be addressed in a patch... but I also think that the AI needs to value tech a good deal more than it currently does.

	11-11-2001 03:49									#26
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Actually, it does, depending on the tech and on the civilization, as Soren explained in his chat. For example, I offered the Printing Press to Xerxes and he loved it, but I offered it to the Zulus and they were offended. Plus, it depends on how the algorithm determines its benefit to them. In my opinion, it is a very sophisticated and realistic negotiation model.

[...feeling all icky for posting in this thread...]

	11-11-2001 04:04									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Don't worry, no offense taken...

	11-11-2001 04:51									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Yes, the AI has asked unrealistic things to me, but I just go to those that will accept better deals. It ALL depends on culture, btw. Higher culture, the more respect you have in military and trade.

I agree, that is probably true. Currently in a Regent Game Huge Map my culture is much higher than I anticipated it would be at this point. It is so high that the Persians are letting be absorb them into their culture, rather than using their far superior Immortals & stronger military to devour me. I could list other areas as well. But the bottomline is the AI doesn't recognize culture as a threat or opportunity. Sure a Civ could have their "Culture" box checked, but that just means it likes to build culture improvements - it doesn't know when or where and more importantly the threat of other civ's culture power absorbing their cities. This is 1 way they could improve the AI.

	11-11-2001 05:08									#29
	Little Infor--Diplomacy Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The 3 games i have started all on warlord i have had success in dealing w/ all ai civs by "padding" their pockets every 4-5 turns.......I am playing on a Huge map...w/all the civs, my culture is one of the highest and my military is equal to all except 1....
Make the ai feel good about you by giving them anywhere from 1-5 gold every 4-5 turns as a token of goodwill, i think that has helped me in getting fair shakes from the ai when i trade w/them.....also....remember this ai does remember little things you do in negotiations, so paying them a little sum like that will be remebered by them.....
Now i dont pay little tributes to all 16 civs, i usually on do this to the civs that are next to me starting out, not to some ai civ across the map.......
Also, one other thing i have noticed w/the ai.......it respects civs w/equal or larger armies than it has.........and this is true throughout history in any given situation.....this is a good part of the game i think...for its realistic affect in the game as it had in real history.....this last game i am playing, i made it to around 1500ad w/out one war started anywhere!!!!!!! awsome..........
However, i have also found that in every game i have played upto this last one im playing now....i have been really pissed at the ai......it seems that once i declare war on one civ for whatever reason...some how all the civs side w/him,,,,,and im all of a sudden fighting against 2-3 civs!!!!! I think this is one thing that needs to worked on dealing w/ai diplomacy and war...................................just my 3 cents worth.............
TomGun

	11-11-2001 05:16									#30
	Full PM-box? Change here!

The title for this thread is very unfair. It is easy to see that a great deal of work went into Civ3. The fact that Infogrames had it ship early, meant that Soren, et al could not finish the game the way they would have liked to.

Here's hoping the coming patch will help clear up some of the gaming issues. . .

I'll be looking forward to it. . .