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Sava
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GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:16
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Everyone has been complaining about corruption, and the problem it causes when trying to develop newly conquered or built cities far from your palace. Well, I have cracked the production problem.
My strategy, which I have dubbed IFE (Infinite Forest Exploitation) is simple.
When conquering other civs, whether you take their cities or raze them, you have an abundance of foreign workers. If you play like me, your core empire is already developed, and does not need these workers. But I have found a use for them.
In these distant cities that suffer from extreme corruption, do this.
1. Clear all forest square adjacent to the city. You should be able to rush a temple for a low cost after the bonus.
2. Put two workers each in three of the cleared squares.
3. Tell them to plant forest. (usually 5 turns with two workers)
4. Have them chop down the forest (usually 3-4 turns with two workers)
This method adds lots of production and allows you to defeat the corruption system. Here is the bonus you receive:
One cycle of the process takes 8 turns. If you have three sets of workers doing this, you get 30 shields every 8 turns, about 3.8 shields per turn. After you get a temple and your culture expands you can do this in 8 squares with a city of 12 without sacrificing any workable squares. In 8 squares, that's 80 shields every 8 turns, or 10 shields per turn. This makes building things a lot easier in these cities.
This method does not even include the cities' base production. Which once you have a courthouse, is about 2-5. So at maximum, the city would be getting 15 shields per turn.
You can also use this strategy in cities that do not suffer from corruption, thus increasing their productivity. If you have an abundance of captured workers you can just have them join the others and speed the process up. I currently have a game running where I have 6 workers in 8 total squares doing this. The process takes 6 turns total with that many workers. That's 80 shields every 6 turns, 15 shields per turn bonus for that city!
You complained about corruption disrupting production, I give you:
INFINTE
FOREST
EXPLOITATION
!!!!!!!
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Drago Sinio
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New Jersey, USA
Oct 1999
time: 05:16
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Also note that different nationalities workers can do this at different speeds, and that later in the game , after some particular tech I dont remember now, they get 50% faster. Its in the manual somewhere.
Anyway , in my current game I have four workers set aside on each continent "lumberjacking". Two workers can plant a forest or cut it down in a single turn. Thats 2.5 shields per turn, per worker. So, if you need a particular improvement , just figure out the number of shields, and how soon you want it built, and send the appropriate number of workers to start "lumberjacking".
For example if you want to build an 100 shield improvement in five turns, you would need to assign eight workers.
Eight workers x 2.5 shields each = 20, x 5 turns = 100 shields.
I have also seen that you if you generate more shields than you need, the extra shields go to waste.
With all this in mind, it might make sense to go capture some workers from an industrious civ, since they work a bit faster. Unless of course you are playing as an industrious civ, in which case it would make sense to build any captured "lazy" workers into one of your cities, and have it produce another , quicker worker.
Last edited by Drago Sinio on 11-11-2001 at 03:03
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RalphTrickey
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Colorado Springs
Oct 2001
time: 22:16
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I play a 'builder' strategy. In my last game (American) just before I quit (Second easiest level, Space victory), I tried something. In ONE TURN I was able to plant forest, clear forest, generating 10 shields, and irrigate the square. Since it was late in the game, and I was industrious, I believe that this only took 5 workers. Does anyone know if these shields are subject to corruption?
This sure sounds like a powerful exploit, especially late in the game when you have a lot of workers standing around doing nothing. I would think that there should be a rule that you can not plant and clear in one turn, or is this somehow less powerful that I think it is?
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Sava
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GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
I've only skimmed over this strategy before, and it seems to me that having only one worker doing that is not good enough because of the cost. having more, like what SoulAssassin said, is more likely to produce these greater results. Industrious Civs workers work twice as fast, so thats another way to speed up this deforesting/reforesting
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I forgot to mention, I was playing France (Industrious and Commercial). That's why I was able to work so fast.
quote:
In a city with total corruption, the shield production will increase by max of 2 with a courthouse.
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Again, France got a better bonus for corruption, that's why I said 2-5, depending on palace distance.
quote:
Im gonna go try it out to see if it is a viable strat. I'll be back tomorrow to post what I figured out. |
Just remember that you need a ton of workers for this strategy to really be advantageous. I would recommend timing the process in such a way that you get a 10 shield bonus per turn. Then, if you have an extra group of workers doing this, maybe every 8 turns you get a 20 bonus. Ordering around all the workers gets tedious, but I would definitely utilize this strategy if MP every comes out.
If my opponent has the same amount of cities as me, and we are at war, I will eventually win because I can pump out more units than he can. It is important to protect the workers though, if you are at war.
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Sava
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GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:16
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quote:
Originally posted by RalphTrickey
I play a 'builder' strategy. In my last game (American) just before I quit (Second easiest level, Space victory), I tried something. In ONE TURN I was able to plant forest, clear forest, generating 10 shields, and irrigate the square. Since it was late in the game, and I was industrious, I believe that this only took 5 workers. Does anyone know if these shields are subject to corruption?
This sure sounds like a powerful exploit, especially late in the game when you have a lot of workers standing around doing nothing. I would think that there should be a rule that you can not plant and clear in one turn, or is this somehow less powerful that I think it is? |
These shields do not get affected by corruption. Again, if it is late in the game and you have tons of workers standing around, put them to good use and IFE.
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Enigma
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Midland, MI, USA
Feb 2000
time: 05:16
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This is a good strategy for using the workers in the long run, but in the short run I just build a city up to size 6 and rush modern armor in 1 turn (using communism). If you are not in communism or despotism this is a great use for workers though!
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Kaak
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doesn't help at all for wonders or forbidden palace =(
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mrbilll
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This is all interesting, but entirely beside the point. The fact that we are all devising these elaborate workarounds tells you that the corruption system is f**ked! Until someone, Firaxis or third party, comes up with something more reasonable and realistic, we will continue to have to plan our entire game strategy around corruption.
All you masochists who insist that this ridiculous, poorly thought out design decision is a "challenge", knock yourselves out. I'm putting C3 on the back burner until I can enjoy it properly- instead of just following the obvious, narrowly defined corridor that Firaxis has herded us into.
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Johnny_Vegas
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This truly is an exploitation that Firaxis didn't think all the way through. When I first saw it, I was worried about its exploitative purposes.
Hey Firaxis, here's a simple fix.. Don't allow forest "planting" to be sped up by adding multiple workers. Depending on how you wrote your code that should be easy or hard to implement.
The problem with this being a viable strategy is that it takes a lot of tedious micromanagement. Obviously trees can't grow faster, with the more labor you add to planting them!
Who wants to sit around lumberjacking all the time? If this is a designed strategy, then Firaxis should add a feature that sets your worker to "Lumberjack mode" so we don't have to maintain it ourselves. Personally I think lumberjacking imbalances the game. However its not as bad as you think because you still have to pay support costs for all those workers. And if your Despot or Communist, those workers are still taking up a chunk of your "free army support" that you could be using for other units. So in that light, maybe this isn't imbalanced. But for the sake of gameplay, Firaxis should NOT reward players that are willing to spend 5 minutes per turn micromanaging their army of 50 workers to lumberjack.... uggg
I think that the game would be better off actually, to just remove the 10 shield bonus for clearing trees altogether. Think about it. If you have some of your citizens on a forest, and it produces shields, that basically means those citizens ARE lumberjacking.
The corruption should be toned down. Maybe if it is, then people won't waste their time with lumberjacking. As it is a very cheesy loophole that the game designers and playtesters missed.
-Johnny_Vegas
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eMarkM
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Chicago Area
Nov 2001
time: 05:16
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Now I have something for my hoards of idle workers to do. Seems a bit of a cheat, but relatively minor. Certainly building your infrastructure takes priority. I'm currently playing a modern age, continent wide empire and my most northern cities are doing the one shield/turn thing. And my workers have nothing to do but be on polluton patrol as I'm all built out.
If you do Shift-A (automate w/o destroying previous improvement) and your worker goes to a city and does nothing it means you've completely built out your infrastructure than I think IFE is a fine way to get production going in the one shield corruption plagued cities.
e
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barefootbadass
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I think you guys are wrong, that firaxis put these options in the game and foresaw this 'exploitation'. Look at the evidence supporting this claim: you clear forest and get 10 shields, you can plant new forest, and the 10 shields from clearing can't help with a wonder or forbidden palace(what about other small wonders?) or normal palace.
Also, once you have your 'lumberjacks' in place, it doesn't really take that much micromanagement(at least timewise, maybe your fingers get tired, you can quickly assign tasks to them with the keyboard ). While your cities are limited to size 12 you can use this strat to work the other squares. Remember, the worker is a population unit. I do agree that the fact that it is all but essential to do this because of corruption being ridiculous is a problem.
Another thought, while corruption is so ridiculous, it seems that Militaristic and Industrious civs are going to be choice for the faster workers to IFE better and the increased likelyhood of getting leaders to rush things that can't benefit from IFE. I'm currently using the french, but after this game I may go to using the Militaristic Industrious civ. My elite units have won soo many battles and not one leader has been generated.
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friendj
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I just wanted to add in my two cents...
I am persia and tend towards the laying of railroad on every square... since i am in late game (1700 AD), and its hard to declare war, i have railroaded the whole place and have close to 100+ workers left to use...
so i lumberjack - at even 20 workers to a square... 2 to clear, 2 to plant, gains me 50 shields... i can force produce libraries and aqueducts in corrupt cities and newly conquered cities. i was even able to forcebuild a cathedral. cathedrals are around 160 shields needed - the force build took A SINGLE TURN with half my workers...
Remember 4 workers = 10 shields...
32 workers = 160 shields = cathedral
Compare this to the 3 X shields in gold for forcebuilding- which is 480 gold... those 32 workers only cost 32 gold... over a 90% savings in cost.
I just have to say that lumberjacking is more micro managment but much much cheaper than trying to forcebuild an improvement.
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Mister_X
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quote:
I think a way to fix IFE would be to make shields from harvested forest subject to corruption, just like regular production. Who is to say our little lumberjack friend isn't going to walk away with some of the extra lumber himself? |
I want to see that in real life. A group of lumberjacks feel that the company isnt giving them their due. So they cut down an ancient redwood, tie it to their chevy and haul it away.
I guess that would supply a few years worth of firewood. Bit tough on the car though.
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Rascalking
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Baltimore
Nov 2001
time: 00:16
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SoulAssassin and some others have indeed struck upon a very useful solution for combating waste in the empire. With as little as 5-6 workers you can easily contribute 10 shields toward your city every turn.
The efficiency of the strategy increases with the industriousness of your particular civilization, your level of development (as workers get more efficient with certain techs), the use of captured workers, the level of corruption around the particular city, and the opportunity cost of the tile.
In my game on the huge adapted Civ2 map, my American Civ starting in America (by chance!) had colonies in Japan and Korea that despite my best efforts could only manage one shield per turn but with two settlers I planted in one turn, cut in the next and got 10 shields every other turn. It was the difference between getting a temple in 12 turns or in 60! There was no corruption effect. This clearly seen in cities generating just one useful shield per turn as you watch your completion time tick off ten turns per exploit.
It was also extremely effective having captured Aztecs deveop all the cities left behind in remote Canadian tundra. Too many workers with nothing to do by this point in the game, too large and thus corrupt, an empire, too important resources to raze the cities, and too risky to leave them undeveloped and low in culture.
IFE in this case worked fantasticly.
It's a shame that most of my time late in the game (Cultural Victory in 1975 ironicly) was spent planting and lumbering, though. That's not much fun.
So sombody please tame waste in the first patch!
Rascalking
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Sava
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GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:16
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An idea I have for fixing IFE would be to create a variable called "fertility". Here's how it would work.
In real life, deforested squares are not as fertile as other squares due to increased erosion from the lack of foliage. This variable would be assigned to each terrain square and would decrease or increase food and/or production. If you deforest a jungle, the grassland would not produce as much food as a naturally occuring grassland.
You could also add some new technologies and/or buildings that would effect fertility.
The way fertility would affect IFE. As a player plants and deforests, fertility would lower the amount of shields yielded from deforesting. Each time the player does the IFE cycle, the fertility goes down. But over time, if the player doesn't exploit the area, the fertility would slowly go up. This would create a new environmental aspect of the game.
In addition to fertility, I think workers should be given the "resource crawler" ability in SMAC. Cities in real life, especially in the modern age, don't harvest all their food and production from their immediate "radius". If there is a moderately sized piece of land in the middle of a continent, the player should be able to just send workers to that area to farm and send food to a target city. This would enable real life mega cities to be created and it would make the game more fun. This could adversely be a solution to the corruption problem. If the player is allowed to lay claim to an area, then building cities to extend the cultural "claw" wouldn't lead to widespread corruption due to too many cities. Cities could be placed solely by important resources and then the surrounding areas could be "claimed" by the player. Maybe a feature could be added to the diplomacy model that would allow the AI and/or other players to recognize the territorial claims. This would prevent "settler" races to control large sections of land. It would also prevent the AI from putting cities in the swiss cheese style holes in your empire early in the game.
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SandMonkey
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quote:
Originally posted by SoulAssassin
By IFEing in the beginning, I start the unit per turn mania early. It snowballs with each worker/city I capture. By producing a mobile unit per turn per city, I can conquer everyone. When MP comes out, I will have perfected it. |
Don't you think that humans will be more careful with their workers? Especially if they know they're playing an IFE'er? Either that, or they're going to be doing the same thing.
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Strollen
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I am pretty sure Firaxis intended forest to be used as a way of rushing production.
From the Civ3 manual Rush Jobs
To rush a job without using either of these costly methods, you normally have two options [ disband units]... The other methods is to clear forests in the city 's radius. The resources gaine from this action go straight into the contrstuction project.
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10-11-2001 20:34
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