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Plutarck
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Earth
Nov 2001
time: 23:16
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NEW AS OF 02/02/2002: Long Winded Changes, Early Release Preview 5 has been RELEASED!
Download it here: LWC Mod
From the changelog:
quote:
-NEW VERSION: Long Winded Changes, Early Release Preview 5 (ERP5). Changes the bonus resources provided by most resources (all changes are increases), tweaked the disappearance probability on Horses and Iron to make them 'move' less, changed Fruit to Bananas, fixed all the building bugs (including not being able to build some, and the coastal defense installations), minorly tweaked some unit costs, tinkered with a few naval unit abilitys (added Blitz to some...), and a few more minor changes.
The file is now called "LWC Mod ERP5.bic" to avoid confusing people. Load it as a Scenario to play with the changes. You must start a new game to see the changes, you can't just change the file name and load a saved game.
This version is a reccommended update for all users, and will not break (or effect) any old saved games. You will however need to reinstall the addon packs (like extra unit animations and non-labeled resource file), though those addon packs have not changed for this version.
NOTE: When unzipping the mod remember to OVERWRITE all the files it asks you about, or the mod may not install properly! |
Note: This thread is quite long and most of the replys are old outdated versions (like 0.1.1). They're still worth the read, but to skip to comments made after the release of ERP5 skip to the following: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...9150#post729501
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An updated modified LWC combat calculator is also available online at the website, and comes along with the mod in the LWC Mod directory. It's definately worth a look, and a quick reference to some defensive bonus changes made in the LWC mod.
Optional Addons: Visit the LWC website at lwc.realmofgaming.net to get the new unit animation addons, a building icon addon (had to remove it from the main download because it was too big, but you don't HAVE to have it), and a non-labeled resource.pcx file (for those who don't like the resource labels).
The website is updated, as well as the download, so here's the short form:
-NEW VERSION: Long Winded Changes, Early Release Preview 4. Oh so many changes, oh so little time. Basically I almost totally re-did all the units (cost, requirements, attack, defense, ZoC, etC), changed UU for America and England to more functional and useful units (the Minuteman and Longbowman, respectively), addition of multiple naval units (and changes of existing ones), 7 buildings (including a small wonder or two), some changes to the tech tree, tweaking of tech costs, changes to multiple wonders, a horde of small bug fixes, largely updated civilopedia, a fixed tech tree (display should be about perfect now), and a rearranged unit list.
To play you will need to load LWC Mod ERP4.bic as a scenario, rather than LWC Mod.bic.
All users should upgrade to this new version, because it's just that good! 
And a request:
-REQUEST: EMAIL ME YOUR LWC SAVED GAMES! Zip 'em up, tell me what version of the LWC mod it is, and make them an attachment to an email to aemuli@yahoo.com
This goes for ALL versions, well into the future until I tell people to stop doing it!
Throughout the course of the game, if you wouldn't mind, save the games at the begining, middle, and end of each age. Exclude only the early and middle ancient age, as I have no need for those. I most desire saves from the late Middle Ages on, and personally prefer those from the difficulty levels of Regent or Monarch. However, I want the other ones too 
This may also turn into a unique feature of the LWC mod later on, because when I get a good solid version of the LWC that everyone can play for multiple days/weeks I will request people send in some saves, which I can play around with and turn into a special kind of Scenario!
I'm not sure exactly why, but playing a game someone else has already started is really quite enjoyable, and I find I can learn alot from it (and I'm sure others can too). I have many, many, many ideas for this, but for now I want the saves strictly for testing. Most of the LWC changes take effect towards the end of the middle ages, and I don't want to have to play all the way from the begining just to get there and decide something should be tweaked :P
Oh, and you don't have to be a really good player either, or even have been playing Civ3 that long! Behind or ahead, good or bad strategies, it doesn't matter to me!
Enjoy!
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Check out the changes.txt file from the LWC website (also included with the mod itself) for a full list of all non-unit changes (I haven't documented the units because they will be changed so much, and they've already all been changed alot). Here are some highlights:
-Totally changed unit combat system, which makes new units superior to old ones without allowing a slightly more advanced Civ to crush a neighbor who's behind in research. War is now also more profitable, but also more dangerous, as Attack values go up for Offensive units while their Defense values have gone down. Watch out for the counter-attack!
-Militaristic, Expansionist, and Scientific traits have been improved to bring them more inline with the other 3 traits.
-27+ NEW Units!
-5 NEW Technologys!
-10+ NEW City Improvements!
-4+ NEW Small Wonders!
-2 NEW Resources (Oasis and Fruit)!
-Barbarians aren't such pushovers any more. You'll have to earn that pillaged gold, and protect your treasury and people!
-And well over 120 OTHER game-improving rule changes!
Check the LWC Website for various information and optional add-ons.
HOW TO INSTALL: Unzip the files into your Civilization III directory. The default is C:\Program Files\Infogrames Interactive\Civilization III, but if you choose another spot then be sure to unzip it there. So long as you do not use PKUNZIP, which ignores the paths set in the zip file. Any other unzipping program that uses the path variable set in the zip file (such as WinZIP, WinRAR, WinACE, et al) will work just fine.
If inside your Civilization III folder (or whatever you named it) you find a folder named "LWC Mod", and in your Scenarios folder you find a .bic filed with "LWC" in the name, then you've done it right.
-NOTE: The AI is capable of using and taking advantage of all changes. Any changes found that the AI can't use will probably be removed.
Be sure to thank the wonderful Kolyana for the web space/bandwidth
Two words: Lavish, Praise.
And as always, I welcome any and all feedback!
Last edited by Plutarck on 03-02-2002 at 06:59
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Wolfshanze
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Hey, I like my Privateer-sinking-Ancient-Galleys!!!!
But seriously... how did you balance out the naval vessels?
Some posting of numbers might be nice!
I haven't seen your numbers at all, maybe you think like me, maybe you don't, but I do know Firaxis will look at the Privateer numbers, but really, the entire naval lineup needs to be looked at.
I've been thinking about changing the naval ratings myself, but I'd like to see how Firaxis "officially" fixes this with a patch.
Currently, the low-end of the naval chart looks like this for attack/defense ratings:
Galley 1/1
Caravel 1/2
Galleon 1/3
Privateer 1/1
Frigate 2/2
I think the low-end should look more like this myself:
Galley 1/1
Caravel 1/2 or 2/2
Galleon 2/2 or 2/3
Privateer 3/2 or 3/3
Frigate 4/4
Of course the later naval vessels will need to be raised accordingly, but I think something like that would be much better than it is now!
Last edited by Wolfshanze on 12-11-2001 at 20:42
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Plutarck
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Earth
Nov 2001
time: 23:16
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Here's the whole readme.txt so you don't have to download the zip to see what it does. It's too big to post
Here's a section on what I did today to balance out naval units:
quote:
Quite a few naval unit changes, which will be a temporary fix until new units can be added:
-Caravel has 1 defense instead of 2.
-Frigate has 3 attack instead of 2.
-English Man-O-War now has 4/3/4, which it did before all these changes but not in the original game.
-Reminder: The Privateer has 2/1/3 , which is properly weaker than the Frigate's 3/2/4. 1/1/3 was just too weak as a Galley, Caravel, and Galleon had an even chance of killing it by attacking or by defending. I've considered giving it +1 defense or movement, but it should be thoroughly play-tested as-is first.
-Ironclad has 5 attack instead of 4.
-Submarine is available with Combustion instead of Mass Production, has 7 attack instead of 6, and 6 defense instead of 4. While submarines are dead if they are found the game does not properly simulate how difficult it is to actually find them in the first place. Thus Defense stat must be used instead, so it's higher now.
-Nuclear Submarine was 6/4/3, now it's current stats are 10/6/4. While Nuclear subs aren't really better than their non-nuclear counterparts, the changed stats are to show the fact that the nuclear subs are modern subs while the Submarine is pretty much a late version of a U-Boat.
-Destroyer was 12/8/5 and is now 10/7/5, now becomes available with Mass Production instead of Combustion, and can see submarines which it couldn't before. Formerly it seemed to have had an even chance of killing a Battleship if it attacked first, which is stupid, and now it has an even chance of getting killed by a Submarine if attacked first. Though it should manage to kill the sub if it attacks first.
-AEGIS Cruiser can no still Submarines, which it shouldn't, but this is the only way to balance the Nuclear Submarine as I can't add a Modern Destroyer. Also has 15/12/5 now instead of 12/10/5. Just look on the tech tree where the Destroyer and Battleship become available, and then where the AEGIS becomes available. It will be the upgrade for the Cruiser when units are addable, but until then it is a worthy apponent to the Battleship while being cheaper to build.
Many naval units will be changed a LOT when new units can be added, but this should hold us till a patch or until I figure out where the hidden Civilopedia index is which crashes the game upon certain conditions when new technologys (and maybe units) are added. |
As for the AI. It SHOULD adapt and use the altered units properly, as it SHOULD build and use units based on their abilitys and the AI Strategy choosen for those units.
Notice the emphasis on "should", because I don't know that it actually will. Only playtesting will reveal if the AI can figure it out.
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Gaius Marius
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Gondwanaland
Oct 2001
time: 00:16
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Prelim thoughts:
I'm going to spend some more time checking this out, but here are my thoughts so far.
You are spot-on with increasing the frequency of Aluminum. Increasing it even more might be warranted - there is TONS of that stuff out there, and the main aluminum-mining areas of the world just happen to have the richest bauxite deposits - they aren't by any stretch the only sources. Of course, it needs to have some value or there's no sense in having it at all, so whatever works.
Courthouses and Police Stations should reduce corruption, giving an ancient and industrial solution. There really needs to be a middle-age solution, and maybe a modern one, but there don't seem to be improvements to match. Thematically, Barracks would make the most sense, but this might make the early game too violent (you would always build barracks, giving you vet units which you can use to expand in a now useful way). As far as time goes, University would seem to be about right - roughly (give or take a century) coincided with the first wave of European expansion. As it stands, colonization under civ3 rules would have been useless. Of course, the colonies didn't have universities, either...
Otherwise, Aqueducts might work, but, like you determined, that doesn't work with rivers.
Cathedrals, maybe? Looks like you tested that and removed them after adding temples and libraries.
I suppose it all boils down to when you want the anti-expansion pressure of corruption to be relieved. If it is at the beginning, go with temples and libraries, and if it is in the middle ages, go with cathedrals and universities. The Church helping keep order makes more sense to me, and I'd definitiely prefer a middle-ages solution to corruption, lest the early game just become a land grab even more than it is. But that's just me. Something about having a progressive reduction in corruption through the ages makes sense to me.
Is it possible (or will it, with a patch, be possible) to add improvements?
Imagine this. In the ancient era, you can build a Council when you have Code of Laws (think of this as a tribal council in the ancient era, City Council in modern times). In the middle ages, you can build a courthouse (link it to Feudalism, or something), Industrial era gives you the police station, and the modern era gives you, say, an FBI Field Office. (Link to Synthetic Fibers - they need Kevlar, or whatever).
Small Wonder "The Supreme Court" or "The Star Chamber" globally reducing corruption would be nice, too, but I doubt this is possible.
Anyway, this seems to make the most sense. In general, though, I don't think corruption is so much of a problem, at least in most eras. Ancient empires I think are limited very effectively. What I have a problem with, is the inability of late medieval and industrial empires to have colonies (cities abroad) that are at all useful, and the inability of a modern democracy to control corruption in a continental empire.
Longwinded, I know. Sorry. I'll come up with more thoughts on the units later. Haven't had time to look at them.
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Pembleton
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Cyberspace
Apr 1999
time: 23:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Bakunine
Haven't d/l and read the readme yet but the changes you made are balancing and wise. However won't it screw a bit the gameplay of the AI?
In the games you have already made have you noticed if the AI adapt to the new rules (like building more number of units that have been improved)?
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This is exactly why I never try mods that change anything other than graphics or anything else that will not affect the AI.
I have used mods in the past that changed aspects of a game such as CD's mod for CTP1 but that mod *also* changed the AI to compensate.
Also, there will be many tweaks and changes in the upcoming patches (for example people were modding corruption when this will be changed in the first patch), so I would wait until at least the second patch or so before considering mods that changed gameplay.
I believe I also heard that the AI cannot be changed through the use of standard mods without hacking the game itself, so it may look like all future gameplay mods for Civ3 will never be used unless extensively tested and approved by many players.
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Pembleton
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Cyberspace
Apr 1999
time: 23:16
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quote:
Originally posted by CobraA1
Maybe you guys haven't been reading enough on these forums - the AI is designed to adapt to whatever mod you may have. It doesn't have to be changed for new mods (at least theoretically). |
You're talking about the wrong guy when it comes to reading these forums. I read these forums too much, and Soren replied *directly to me* when I brought up this point before.
But note the last phrase: "theoretical". Making cities in the middle of nowhere and right in between foreign civs wasn't intended but that's what the AI does. Workers also run back and forth when they have nothing to do instead of being absorbed into a city.
Who knows what other stupidities the AI will do, and many that you may never be aware of, since they may be doing it in a fog of war?
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Plutarck
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Earth
Nov 2001
time: 23:16
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dannyevilcat: Actually...that's an excellant point, LOL. However I'm just gonna say that surely they could have come up with some other kind of shoes. Like Sandals. I for one would be terrified of an army that wore sandals.
And really I just want them to be the defender for civs without strategic resources
zeh: Whatever the Changelog lists is the latest information. What is below is changes I did before starting the changelog, and I figured it wasn't worth the trouble to go down and update them yet as they'll change soon enough.
So the stats of the Nuclear Submarine are 10/6/4.
As for the Oil, I do agree they are used now adays, but only because Oil is so much cheaper. If there was a way I'd just raise the cost of the unit if you didn't have the resource, but that isn't possible YET. What I won't rule out is when it becomes possible to copy the unit, make one require oil like it did before, but make the other not require it but raise the cost to build it.
For now I think it's too severe to be totally unable to build the units without oil, and it helps to aleviate the oil dependence from a gameplay standpoint.
Pembleton: The reason the CTP1 mod changed the AI to compensate is because, if I recall correctly, new units where added in that mod and there was not already a way to choose how the AI would use that unit as part of the unit adding process. It was also because the AI was stupid in various ways
All the units have only been somewhat minorly changed, so even if the AI made no adjustment it wouldn't be too terribly big of a handicap.
My only question, however, is does the AI know how to use Privateers at all? The rest of the units pretty much are the same they were before but with slightly different stats.
At worst the AI will be only at a minor disadvantage. At best it will figure out how to use it just like you will, and the decreases in corruption serves the massively expanding AI more than it will a normal player.
So far I've seen no problem with the AI, but I haven't played all the way to the end with the changes yet.
Gaius Marius:
The reason I removed it from University is something I realized. The Religious and Scientific traits cut the cost of building Temples and Cathedrals and Librarys and Universitys in half. If I added the flag to one of the middle aged ones I'd kind of need to add it to the other to be fair, yet then Religious and Scientific civs would get an even bigger boost because of their cheapness. So an R&S civ could build a Cathedral and Univserity in the same time it took a civ that wasn't R or S to build either one.
I haven't decided if it's minor enough that it won't matter, or if it's even needed at all...though I'm thinking it will be needed.
Anyone have some thoughts about that? Would there be another Middle Age improvement(s) that would make sense to reduce corruption? How about in the Modern Age?
I think what will really be best is when we can add improvements. Then we won't have to scratch our heads trying to figure out what makes sense to reduce corruption without causing more problems than it solves.
Hm...I wonder if some kind of a 2nd Forbidden Palace would work, perhaps in the late Middle Ages or early Industrial? Not sure if the game allows it, however.
quote:
Longwinded, I know. Sorry. |
Thus the name of the mod
Rhuarc: For now it only changes, but doesn't add anything that wasn't already in the game. As soon as I figure how to buglessly add things like techs, units, and improvements I will. That will hopefully be in a future version.
But nope, no added governments in this one.
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gentleben
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do the changes to Leo's workshop have any effect on what units you can build and when ? One might consider it a prerequisit like the old M project was for nuclear weapons
any way to change civ attributes ? America and Germany should have commercial..Rome should be expantionist and brittian prob should be religious..Imho
I love what you did with the war charriot!
Any chance of getting forts and colonys to expand your boarders ?
Last edited by gentleben on 13-11-2001 at 03:13
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ajbera
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of the Cookieville Minimum Security Orphanarium
Apr 1999
time: 05:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Plutarck
As for the Oil, I do agree they are used now adays, but only because Oil is so much cheaper. If there was a way I'd just raise the cost of the unit if you didn't have the resource, but that isn't possible YET. What I won't rule out is when it becomes possible to copy the unit, make one require oil like it did before, but make the other not require it but raise the cost to build it.
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I had been thinking along similar lines. One possibility is, if you don't have access to oil but need to make a tank, you must research a tech (synthetic fuels, maybe an offshoot of synthetic materials) that allows you to make that vehicle at a slightly higher cost, simulating the discovery of an alternate fuel to take oil's place. The rub - you need to add techs and alternate units, which will have to wait 'til the editor is fixed.
Another possibility is linking alternate units to similar resources - if, for example, you didn't have access to iron to make that tank, but you did have access to aluminum, making a low-defense skirmish vehicle that can attack at 2/3 tank power, has 1/2 the defense, and +1 movement.
These changes will allow a civ to remain able to have an army/navy/air force without a critical component, but at a cost - either time and money, or a slightly weaker unit.
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Tauklon
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Seattle, WA
Nov 2001
time: 21:16
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Acording to this site the AEGIS Cruiser uses gas turbine engines. So just oil should be needed.
http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib...s/ship-cru.html
I really like the idea of alternate resources for units. For instance battleships in WWI were all coal/steam powered. I like the addition of resources and luxuries but there should be two ways to build any unit.
I read your list and kept thinking it all made sense. A beta would have really helped. So why did the game get released without a beta?
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Badtz Maru
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I like the changes you made, but there is one thing I noticed that is pretty unbalancing - you gave certain military units the ability to build improvements. This is unfair to the AI as it will not make use of this ability.
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Plutarck
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Earth
Nov 2001
time: 23:16
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gentleben: Leo's has no effect on units.
In the editor go to the Civilizations tab and you can change the civs attributes. You can even give a certain civ all the attributes, though that would be kind of cheating if you didn't give them to everyone. And I don't know if it would screw up the AI or not
And ain't that War Chariot great?
ajbera: From an earlier suggestion in the Civfanatics forum I believe coal and iron warships should be added, perhaps at the Steel advance. I too like the ideas of alternate units to simulate that many resources are more convenient than they are neccessary, like Uranium with submarines and AEGIS Cruisers.
We'll see soon enough
Tauklon: Good to know about the AEGIS. Could use some kind of shift later, but now it's just in there to have another reason to have Uranium.
Deadlines is why there weren't betas 
Badtz Maru: You make a good point, but now that you mention it...does the AI build forts EVER? I haven't seen it do it yet, but does it do it towards the end of the game?
It's possible that the AI can figure out certain units now have new abilitys, but perhaps that would be giving it too much credit. Playtesting is needing on that subject, so everyone be sure to keep an eye on that.
Here is my current proposed changes for version 0.1.1, so tell me what you think of whether they should be in the next version or not:
-Palace now has 4 Bombard Defense and gives a 25% bonus to defense. 2 defense and 10% bonus was almost entirely unnoticable, so I had to bump it up a bit.
-Aluminum now has been raised up to 160 from 150 previously in this mod. It now has the same commonality as Iron and Horses, though it should still be more common I'll just leave like this. I've considered removing aluminum from the most modern units simulating how common Aluminum has become, which is the same thing the game does with Saltpeter (explained on the Rifleman's entry in the Civilopedia). But I figure the Spaceship is a game-ender so it should require all the resources it does (Aluminum, Uranium, and Rubber) for gameplay reasons...so I'm leaving it alone. It will now appear in the amount 2 for every player, but not every player will necessarily be near a deposit.
-Rubber now has 130 appearance up from 120. Oil has 120 and I figure rubber should be a little more common, but not much, so this does it. You probably won't even notice a difference, but as rubber is needed for some important units and the Spaceship it should be a weensy bit more common.
-Settlers can now Clear Forests and Jungles. The main use is so you can send off a settler and it can clear out a jungle/forest on it's own so it can build a city there. Seems reasonable to me.
-Swordsman, Roman Legions, and Persian Immortals can now Clear Jungles. They do have swords, don't they? They cannot, however, clear Forests, so you can't use them for logging. I gave the special units the ability because they replace the Swordsman, and it makes sense that they both have rather tough slicing weapons, which should be able to cut through trees anyway. The Romans had builders and architects in their ranks anyway, but I've decided not to allow them to build Forts.
Have you noticed that I hate jungles?
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MicMc
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atlanta ga
Nov 2001
time: 00:16
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A couple of things, historical n' stuff,
Rubber was needed for modern infantry (defined as 1918 armies) for a number of things, boots were one, but also in ammo protection (before this they were using foils which let the powder go rotten) (not a good thing in trench warfare) but mainly it was used for seals and hoses on engines (componds of rubber that is) so you could get your big breadbox 'tank' to the battlefield and so you could get the supplies to the front on trucks (though horse drawn carts were still sorta the norm) as well as having industrial use which made it possible to produce a million rifles in the first place. Last the field kits of the WWI soldier had rubberized canteens, and a list of gear which made it possible to sit some poor sod out in the mud for 2 months without him dying of disease...cuz WWI general's hated that, they liked the human wave assualt for that sort of thing.
I don't know what is possible in creation/alteration of small wonders (if additions are possible) but for corruption a mid-game possiblity would be the creation of trade-guilds. (more trained people less waste, and better money counters less waste). In a modern era unions could be created either as a city improvement or as a small wonder with the same effect (based on number of factories in an empire?)
Just a thought, I haven't started monkeying with the files yet, I'm still trying to figure out what to do with 10 million captured workers without having 10 mins real time of watching the screen bounce around as they go through thier assigned tasks with all the efficiency of a dead elephant doing crosstich. Yeah I know I could add em to pop's but well, my folks haven't learned to share well.
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Plutarck
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Earth
Nov 2001
time: 23:16
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MicMc: Thanks for the information, that's definately something to think about it. Marines and Paratroopers still need rubber (which makes sense), but I'll leave Infantry as-is for until some more debate.
NEW VERSION!
Here are the changes:
11/12/01:
-Palace now has 4 Bombard Defense and gives a 25% bonus to defense. 2 defense and 10% bonus was almost entirely unnoticable, so I had to bump it up a bit.
-Aluminum now has been raised up to 160 from 150 previously in this mod. It now has the same commonality as Iron and Horses, though it should still be more common I'll just leave like this. I've considered removing aluminum from the most modern units simulating how common Aluminum has become, which is the same thing the game does with Saltpeter (explained on the Rifleman's entry in the Civilopedia). But I figure the Spaceship is a game-ender so it should require all the resources it does (Aluminum, Uranium, and Rubber) for gameplay reasons...so I'm leaving it alone. It will now appear in the amount 2 for every player, but not every player will necessarily be near a deposit.
-Rubber now has 130 appearance up from 120. Oil has 120 and I figure rubber should be a little more common, but not much, so this does it. You probably won't even notice a difference, but as rubber is needed for some important units and the Spaceship it should be a weensy bit more common.
-Settlers can now Clear Forests and Jungles. The main use is so you can send off a settler and it can clear out a jungle/forest on it's own so it can build a city there. Seems reasonable to me.
-Swordsman, Roman Legions, and Persian Immortals can now Clear Jungles. They do have swords, don't they? They cannot, however, clear Forests, so you can't use them for logging. I gave the special units the ability because they replace the Swordsman, and it makes sense that they both have rather tough slicing weapons, which should be able to cut through trees anyway. The Romans had builders and architects in their ranks anyway, but I've decided not to allow them to build Forts.
Have you noticed that I hate jungles?
11/13/01:
-BUG FIX: Somehow Barracks got flagged with -2 culture. While an interesting idea it was NOT intended and has been fixed. Barracks now correctly produce 0 culture.
-Factorys and Manufacturing Plant now produce -2 culture each. -1 was just too small to be noticable.
-Coal Plants and the Iron Works small wonder now produce -3 culture, up from -2 culture. A little mroe noticable, but it probably isn't a big deal.
-Recycling Plants now produce -2 pollution.
-Mass Transit now produces -1 pollution. With the above change it might help with pollution a little bit.
More changes may be needed to play with pollution a little, but probably the best is to somehow allow a pollution reducing improvement earlier on. Will have to wait until new improvements can be added, however.
You can download the new version in the first post in this thread.
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Grallon
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Montréal, Canada
Jan 1970
time: 05:16
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Plutark,
regarding that improvement in the middle ages to decrease corruption - how about a Guild Hall - Artisan's or merchants' guilds used to be big during medieval times and exerted social control over their members - thus a reduction in corruption.
G.
PS did you get my email ?
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xmax
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Great mod Plutarck! I am combining it with other changes I think are appropriate. Among them the naval units movement rates.
Does anyone else think that it shouldn't take destroyer 15 turns to circumvent the Earth (which is how long it takes on huge map)? Throughout the history sea routes were faster and more effective than land routes with difficult terrain or no roads. I decided to roughly double sea units movement rates which takes Frigate to 5 (and hence less than 6 for a cavalry unit on a road) and Destroyer/Battleship to 10 which is much slower than RR available by that time (transport units have one less movement point to make it more realistic).
Also I think Privateer should only be available with Magnetism (they were widely used at the same time as Frigates and Galleons), be very cheap (it is a PRIVAteer and hence costs little for the government to set up), be soundly defeated by Frigates and have a good chance catching and attacking Galleons which is why it should have stats of 3/2/5.
I am yet to play a game with these changes - will let you know then.
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Plutarck
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Earth
Nov 2001
time: 23:16
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I'm off to get some sleep, but here are my current changes. Open for debate and discussion, as always.
-AEGIS Cruiser no longer requires Uranium. Through multiple sources, and especially through the information from [currently held till I get the names they want used] who were extremely helpful, I have found that indeed AEGIS Cruisers are not nuclear powered. They have extremely big gas turbines, but not reactors. I have considered giving it 6 movement as part of an increase in movement I'm thinking of giving modern naval units. Depending on the results of my current experimentation it may be part of a much larger improvement of naval warfare. However I will leave it as-is until new units can be added that ensure balance.
-Radar Artillery now has 2 movement. This unit is surely self-propelled, and should obviously be faster than a catapult.
-Rubber is now back to 120 from my previous change to 130. Rubber is naturally rare and should just be left alone.
-Nuclear Submarine now can carry 2 missles.
-Settlers are back to their default, no longer clearing forests or jungles. It turns out that they automatically clear the tile when a city is built. Go figure. Another reason strategy guides are wastes of money.
-Privateers now cost 7 instead of 6. I had assumed they already were differing in cost, but assuming makes and ass out of u and mi after all. This should ensure they are balanced out with other ships.
-ISSUE: Pottery is currently listed as a prerequisite for Map Making, which allows the Harbor, Galley, Great Lighthouse, and world map trading. Should it really be a prereq? I'd love to hear reasons why it should or shouldn't be.
-WOOHOO!: Thanks to my recently aquired ability to Add various things to the game, I will be doing so now. Now we be havin' some REAL fun!
-Added Unit: The Coracle is now available with no prerequisite, costs 2 to build, has 1/1/2, can carry 1 unit, and upgrades to the Galley.
-The Galley no longer sinks in the Sea. Still goes into the drink in oceans, though.
-The Caravel now has 4 movement, up from 3 previously. With stats like 1/1/4 and carrying 3 units, it's not exactly a Super Unit. (I will be introducing the concept of the Super Unit at a later date. Suffice it to say that now you too can attempt to construct a Bismark/Yamato)
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Badtz Maru
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I've seen the AI build fortresses before, but it is rare. They were the first fortresses I had seen in the game (having not built any myself) and it wasn't until a fairly modern era.
I seem to recall word from one of the developers saying that the AI is not capable of using combat units as workers - I think that the AI workers are for the most part work like automated workers for the players.
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MicMc
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atlanta ga
Nov 2001
time: 00:16
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Looking at history pottery becomes the 'source' of sea-going/trading cuz it lets you carry your finished goods (that ONLY you can make) across the water to some hucksters down the coast who haven't figured out grapes make wine. You got sheep, they got sheep, you got sand, rocks, high baby mortality, they got sand, rocks etc.
The need for a place to transport your wine came after you had a way of keeping your wine in the first place. Once again commerce comes into supply the reasons for science. Without a way to transport your wine or other goods (including religon in the form of icons) there is no reason to build the boats to carry the wine, hence no need for harbors, ocean crafts, maps (of far away places, at one time and not that long ago, the idea of 'maps' was alien. We think in left is west now, but it's not, it's over there that way where the sun is going down. Maps developed as a way of telling sailors where to watch for hidden shoals, rocks, and the like) (it's like your neighborhood you know ever street, tree and alley in it, you got no need of a map, cuz the directions 'over there by the Miller House by the oak tree' works.)
Pottery as a fundemental 'need' for civilization (defined as staying put in one place) also comes into play by a need to find a way to keep the vermin out of the food stores (hence letting you stay in one place) nomad camps don't attract rats, mice roaches in the numbers of villages where generations of critters would grow on the kind of storage before pottery. (think chewed through wine skins with a bunch of really pleasantly buzzed mice) and once a people put down roots they need a way of getting the stuff they can't get anymore when they wandered for a living.
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Grallon
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Montréal, Canada
Jan 1970
time: 05:16
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Can someone tell me how to change the pace of the game ? I want 20 y turns max and decreasing. Is this hardcoded now ? It was editable in Civ 2
G.
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Plutarck
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Earth
Nov 2001
time: 23:16
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Grallon: It would seem that it's yet another thing that has been hard-coded into the game. The makers of Civ3 must not have had the modmaking community in mind when building the game.
MicMc: Makes enough sense to me, and if nothing else it doesn't hurt having it be a prereq. Now that I'm changing the Galley it's ok that it comes when it does.
Here are some more changes I've got planned so far. Got plenty of work to do so it might be another day or two for the next version:
11/14/01:
-The Infantry and Mech Inf can no longer build Fortifications, Clear Forests or Jungles. The AI just doesn't understand fortifications whatsoever, and clearign Forests would just allow exploitation of logging. Only units which reduce population by at least one will be allowed to clear forests. I removed jungles from an ability so now if you want a non-population decreasing unit to clear jungles you'll need to use the Swordsman.
-BUG FIX: The Cannon had 0 rate of fire, but the Catapult didn't. How did that happen? Regardless, it's been fixed.
-Ironclad now is back to it's original stats of 4/4/4, and now sinks in the ocean. I'm tempted to make it sink at sea, but for balance reasons I'll leave it this way. The superiority of Ironclads is grossly inflated according to my research, and they never became common and the one's that were built were used more for coastal and intlet defense and for blockading. An Ocean Worthy vessel between Ironclad and Destroyer is the next unit I'm adding.
-The Man-O-War and Frigate can no longer Upgrade to the Ironclad, due to the ironclad loosing it's ocean-worthyness. It was also stretching real-world accuracy. Now if you want an Ironclad you're just going to have to build it from scratch.
-ISSUE: The Babylonian Bowman is probably now the least powerful special unit, but it's a very hard unit to make better without unbalancing other units. I believe the only possible choices are increasing it's attack to 3, or giving it Zone of Control. The latter seems like it's stretching it, but what of giving it 3 attack? Here is the units that would compare:
Swordsman: 3 cost, 3/2/1, iron needed
Leggionairy: 3 cost, 3/3/1, iron needed
Immortal: 3 cost, 4/2/1, iron needed
Would a 2 cost 3/2/1 unit without iron available after 1 tech of research be unbalancing? I just can't see any other way, but I'm open to suggestions. Otherwise the Babylonians will forever have a not-very-useful special unit. But more movement or less cost seems out of the question. Too bad you can't give a unit 1.5 cost...
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Plutarck
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Earth
Nov 2001
time: 23:16
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It may be a few days before I'm finished with the next version, but I hope to have it done in time for people to play it over the weekend (for people who don't go out and do other things on the weekends, of course. personally I work on the weekend and usually don't do much of anything but sleep and work)
However, I'm posting this to let everyone know that this next one will be BIG. BIG my friends. Here's a teaser of what is to come:
-Comes with an auto-installer so you don't even have to navigate you're computer's directorys.
-Adds more than 8+ units including the Mercenary unit (think "Privateer on land"), an ancient age warship, a middle-industrial age warship, 3 modern age ships which replace their industrial age ancestors, 2 totally new modern submarines, 1 totally new modern ship, and a new unit called the "Atomic Bomb"! (in the late industrial age, where it should be!) And maybe even more...
-Totally smoothes out, balances, improves, and greatly increases the importance of naval units throughout the entire game. Being able to ignore water units would be a very unwise move.
-At least 1 new non-government technology.
-At least 2 new governments which are not present in ANY other mod (one in the late middle ages, the other in the late industrial ages), along with 2 new technologys to go along with it.
-At least 1 new wonder (in the ancient age).
-At least 2 new city improvements.
-Changes land-based bombardment units to be more useful at certain points in the game.
-1 new ground unit in the ancient age which introduces a totally new concept for new units to the game.
-2 new resources. One is a bonus resource, and the other a special very rare strategic resource.
And that's just the stuff I have thought up today!
Yes my friends, the LWC mod will be the ultimate Civ3 mod.
Note: "Good lord willin' and the creak don't rise" I will update this mod when the patch comes out should it be neccessary, and do it as soon as possible after it so you can take full advantage of anything Firaxis may fix/change.
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12-11-2001 18:31
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