13-11-2001 06:11									#1
	Kabul falls Support Apolyton

MSNBC is reporting Northern Alliance forces have entered the capital.

Witnesses from the top of the International Hotel say it was very strange to see Taliban forces in their pick-up trucks heading out of town at the same time Northern Alliance troops in their pick-up trucks were coming into town from the other direction.

	13-11-2001 06:17									#2
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Exit authoritarian government #1, enter (less) authoritarian government #2...

	13-11-2001 06:19									#3
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Are you sure you're not watching the tailgate party for the Titan's game with all those pickup trucks?

This is interesting news, but it means nothing if the US can't win the propaganda side of the war.

	13-11-2001 06:22									#4
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the US would like to thank britain and all allies that pleged military aid and support in EF. without you great guys and your ten cruise missiles, this retreat wouldn't have been possible.

italian troops in afghanistan on the front lines wouldn't been amazing though. maybe next time the world is at risk...

	13-11-2001 06:22									#5
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi This is interesting news, but it means nothing if the US can't win the propaganda side of the war.

No propaganda means nothing. The talibs are running...Kabul and Herat have fallen. It is over for the talibs, and the noose is tightening for mr. Bin Laden.. once Kabul falls Jalalabad is a hop skip and a jump away.


Then we can begin the search for Al-Queda criminals......they must be brought to the book for there crimes against the freedom loving and peaceful American people

	13-11-2001 06:23									#6
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That's nice. Northern Alliance is prefarably to Taliban but I ain't cheering like if the US took back Berlin.


By the time the Eurocom "support" arrives the war will be over. Hey, maybe they'll help us in Iraq.

	13-11-2001 06:24									#7
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as a side note, it's great the idiots managed to listen to bush's dozen warnings of political instability.

	13-11-2001 06:30									#8
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi it means nothing if the US can't win the propaganda side of the war.

I agree with DaShi.

We've been taking a major hit in Moslem countries because many of the people see this war as anti-Islam. Bin Laden has been trying very hard to turn this into a US/Moslum conflict.

However, in another news story, I saw literally mountains of food supplies piled up just across the border. Once we start feeding the millions of starving Afghanis, this hostility should die down.

	13-11-2001 06:45									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf as a side note, it's great the idiots managed to listen to bush's dozen warnings of political instability.

erm...why should they care what Bush says? This is just an alliance of convenience. The only reason why we're helping them is to catch Bin Laden. And they're helping us because they want Afghanistan. Everyone has something to get here, why should they want a "free and democratic" Afghanistan when they could just take power (after a few more years of civil war)? We didn't help them before 9/11 and now we're acting all high and mighty about it. I mean, let's face it, few Americans could even point of Afghanistan on a map never mind pronounce Taliban correctly. Maybe it's my cynicism, but I still think this is an alliance of convenience. I agree with DF.

	13-11-2001 06:54									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Mao I mean, let's face it, few Americans could even point of Afghanistan on a map never mind pronounce Taliban correctly.

No biggie. They can't find Kansas either.

	13-11-2001 06:58									#11
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quote: No biggie. They can't find Kansas either

Sure we can! That's where Superman's from, right?

	13-11-2001 07:02									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar Sure we can! That's where Superman's from, right?

I thought it didn't exist anymore.

	13-11-2001 07:02									#13
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This was quite predictable - in fact I predicted it a month ago

But it shows lots of strategic smarts. Clever move.

	13-11-2001 07:16									#14
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This could either be very good or very bad... I'm thinking the latter. As soon as the US gets out of Afghanistan the people of Afghanistan will return to their regularly scheduled civil war.

	13-11-2001 07:21									#15
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Victor -

quote: As soon as the US gets out of Afghanistan the people of Afghanistan will return to their regularly scheduled civil war

	13-11-2001 07:40									#16
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quote: But it shows lots of strategic smarts. Clever move.

That depends on whether our bombers can take advantage of the situation or not...in either case, by all accounts, our top strategists have been thrown into confusion by this abrupt enemy defeat.

	13-11-2001 07:51									#17
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Please remember what Mr. Churchill said.

The Russians occupied every major city in Afghanistan through their 10 year war, so the NA is still far from being the rulers of Afghanistan.

And as for our war aims:

1) Breaking up al-Qaeda and other terrorist organizations. The physical camps have (as far as we, the target audience, knows) been destroyed. Otherwise we know nothing.

2) Osama. He's still smoke.

3) Taliban control of Afghanistan. The US says air power has 'broken its back' and yet they still have the ability to move 10 000 men around and co-ordinate a strategy? A Northern Alliance or UN whatever will be meaningless if all they can do is control the cities and some ethnic enclaves.

Realities:
Afghanistan is an almost entirely rural country. The cities are not that important if ones goal is control. The Taliban and their al-Qaeda friends have simply adopted the traditional Afghan strategy--abandon the cities and keep to the hills.

For fanatics, they have also managed to keep fairly intact fighting divisions. Mazar, Herat etc were not taken in Stalingrad like street fighting, the Taliban simply withdrew when they wanted to.

Grounds for Optimism:

1) The USA has kept its ground forces out of the spotlight. This is a very good political move.
2) From what we see the Taliban are reacting, not capable of initiatives. However, the Taliban claims some successful offensives but I have no way of knowing if they are lying or CNN is omitting for propaganda reasons.

	13-11-2001 08:07									#18
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quote: Opposition Forces Enter Kabul By Sayed Salahuddin Reuters KABUL (Nov. 13) - Fighters of the anti-Taliban Northern Alliance entered Kabul early on Tuesday to the sound of small-arms fire as dazed residents emerged from their homes to see Taliban bodies on the streets and looters plundering government offices. ''We have taken Kabul,'' shouted one jubilant opposition fighter as he stood with a group of fellow fighters on a street in the city center. Their vehicles were plastered with photographs of their legendary leader, Ahmad Shah Masood, who was assassinated in a suicide attack just two days before the September 11 hijacked airliner attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. A few bodies of Taliban fighters lay in the streets and sporadic small-arms fire clattered in pockets of the Afghan capital as the opposition Northern Alliance entered. ''Down with the Taliban!'' and ''Welcome the Northern Alliance!'' shouted a few Kabul residents as they realized that the Taliban had pulled out of virtually the entire city in an exodus under cover of night. Many others appeared dazed and confused, nervous about what to expect if the Northern Alliance had indeed captured the capital. Small-arms fire erupted in some parts of the city, apparently coming from Taliban who had not managed to leave or had chosen to make a last stand. Several bodies of Taliban fighters, distinguished by their mandatory black turbans, lay sprawled on streets. Among the dead were a couple of the much-feared foreign fighters, usually Arabs, Pakistanis or Chechens, who make up the backbone of the al Qaeda network of Saudi-born militant Osama bin Laden. The United States launched strikes on the Taliban in retaliation for protecting bin Laden, its prime suspect in the September 11 attacks on New York and Washington. Many Kabul residents were nervous. Several houses were robbed in the night as law and order began to break down. As dawn broke, and the nighttime curfew imposed by the Taliban ended, residents of one of the most impoverished and war-ravaged capitals on earth plundered government offices in a looting spree. Residents said some prisoners had also broken out of jails in the city, which appeared to have been abandoned by the Taliban. ''We have taken key government buildings,'' one Northern Alliance fighter said. ''We are chasing the Taliban to the west.'' After darkness fell on Monday, a stream of Taliban tanks, armored personnel carriers and battered pickup trucks could be seen leaving Kabul, heading out on the highway leading west and then south to the militia's stronghold of Kandahar. The opposition Northern Alliance broke through Taliban front lines outside Kabul on Monday, backed by a fierce artillery barrage and U.S. bombing.

This is great news

The noose is tightening!!!!!!!!

	13-11-2001 08:11									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse This was quite predictable - in fact I predicted it a month ago But it shows lots of strategic smarts. Clever move.

Wasn't there some kind of friendly wager with MtG?

	13-11-2001 08:22									#20
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One of the main principles of defence is "ground of your choosing". I think they are just drawing the enemy into their killing zones

For example, how many fighters did they leave behind to pop up later?

	13-11-2001 08:23									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse One of the main principles of defence is "ground of your choosing". I think they are just drawing the enemy into their killing zones For example, how many fighters did they leave behind to pop up later?

Its probably was not a strategic withdrawl...if so it was pretty ****in stupid. They got the **** bombed out of them from the air.

	13-11-2001 08:25									#22
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Yeah, they'd have to have a pretty good reason for leaving Kabul. Going out in the open, that's just suicide. Either some Taliban military leader is asleep on the job, or something sneaky is going on

I thought we specifically said we didn't want the NA taking Kabul?

	13-11-2001 08:31									#23
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Its probably was not a strategic withdrawl...if so it was pretty ****in stupid. They got the **** bombed out of them from the air.

Yeah right - just like you did in Vietnam.

God some of you people are ignoramuses.

	13-11-2001 08:33									#24
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There are no jungles to hide in...they were caught retreating on a road and were promptly bombed. And if Vietnam were today.....they couldnt hide in the jungles either.

	13-11-2001 08:35									#25
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Heard of agent orange stupid?

They can hide in the hills and caves. Just like they did during the Soviet occupation.

	13-11-2001 08:41									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Heard of agent orange stupid?

Ya, a crude yet inneffective experiment

quote: They can hide in the hills and caves. Just like they did during the Soviet occupation.

Not with thermal imaging from the air you boof-head

	13-11-2001 08:42									#27
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"I thought we specifically said we didn't want the NA taking Kabul?"

Well, apparently the main body of troops didn't enter, the Taliban just fled. To stop the chaos, the NA sent in a specialized police force. Still, joyful Kabul citizens are looting government buildings.

This recent Taliban collapse has been utterly amazing- they just let the NA have Kabul without a fight it seems, and they have lost vast swaths of territory. The only possible explanation seems that the Taliban has been completley demoralized and are just trying to get the hell away.....

	13-11-2001 08:43									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Heard of agent orange stupid? They can hide in the hills and caves. Just like they did during the Soviet occupation.

At first glance, I thought you were calling me stupid. But you wouldn't do that, would you horse?

	13-11-2001 08:45									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi This recent Taliban collapse has been utterly amazing- they just let the NA have Kabul without a fight it seems, and they have lost vast swaths of territory. The only possible explanation seems that the Taliban has been completley demoralized and are just trying to get the hell away.....

one can only hope. I know it's not possible, but I hope the Taliban surrenders in some way, and that we can get a better form of government set up ASAP. It's a bad time to be an Afghan living in anarchy, especially with winter approaching

	13-11-2001 08:45									#30
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There is nothing "amazing" about it if you had the slightest understanding of insurgency tactics.