13-11-2001 13:50									#1
	Expansion Pack Civs Explained: Portuguese Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Ok, I'll have to start with little info. I don't have very much time right now, so any help is always welcome.


I propose our leader to be: King John II
Special unit: Don't know that yet. This could be where I would appreciate help pretty much! But it could be a Caravel, if it could give a really big bonus in commerce or trade. I don't know, I haven't played CivIII much.

Attributes: Definetly Commercial and Expansionist! Unlike some other civs that I'm seeing that have these same atributes (and which I don't agree with), the portuguese have earned these attributes, since they colonized a lot of Africa (east and west coast) and Brazil, and established trade posts in Macau, Timor and Japan.

Great Leaders: Infant Henrique, Vasco da Gama, Pedro Álvares Cabral, Marquis of Pombal, Nuno Álvares Pereira, Afonso de Albuquerque (...)

Golden Age: late XV to mid XVIII centuries

Cities:
Capital: Lisboa (or Lisbon, whatever) edit: or Guimarães (first portuguese capital; Lisboa was 2nd)
Porto
Coimbra
Faro
Braga
Bragança
Santarém
Évora
Beja
Alcobaça
Viseu
Guarda
Castelo Branco
Sines
Sagres
Leiria
Viana do Castelo
Vila Real
Aveiro
Portalegre
Setúbal
Funchal
Ponta Delgada
Angra do Heroísmo
Covilhã
Sintra
Avis
Crato
Vila Viscosa
Figueira da Foz
Chaves
Portimão


Macau
Goa
Diu
Díli
São Paulo
Natal
Recife
Lourenço Marques
Luanda
Cidade da Praia
Mombaça



Don't forget! Every help is appreciated!

Last edited by Zealot on 19-11-2001 at 23:48

	13-11-2001 14:18									#2
	Portuguese in Spain Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Portuguese can be too easily included in the Spanish civ. Before dividing Portuguese from Spanish, I think we should put lots of other civilisations.

	13-11-2001 14:53									#3
	Re: Portuguese in Spain Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Trifna Portuguese can be too easily included in the Spanish civ. Before dividing Portuguese from Spanish, I think we should put lots of other civilisations.

Jesus Crist! No wonder you're an International renowned idiot!

Trifna, if that was realistic, then the portuguese language wouldn't be the 7th most spoken in the world! Still today, the portuguese culture is really strong in many aspects, such as the devotion to religion, gastronomy and poetry, etc!

	13-11-2001 15:00									#4
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At it's peak, Spain included Portugal. Without Portugal, the Spanish empire would have not been the first one in which the sun never set (sentence ripped off by the British a few centuries later). Nevertheless I agree that the term Spanish does not mean today what it used to in the Middle Ages/Renaissance. Thus a civilization containing both the Spanish and the Portuguese would have to be called Iberian. I actually have been supporting that idea for long

	13-11-2001 19:28									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Jay Bee At it's peak, Spain included Portugal. Without Portugal, the Spanish empire would have not been the first one in which the sun never set (sentence ripped off by the British a few centuries later). Nevertheless I agree that the term Spanish does not mean today what it used to in the Middle Ages/Renaissance. Thus a civilization containing both the Spanish and the Portuguese would have to be called Iberian. I actually have been supporting that idea for long

I agree with the ideia of "Iberian civilization" in a matter of pure simplification, but never the Portuguese can be included in Spain (nor vice-versa), because Portugal wasn't a part of Spain for that long, so i don't think it would be historicaly accurante to include Portugal in Spain, even because the cultures of the two nations are very different!

If you recall, Portugal was part of Spain because the Portuguese King D. Sebastião died in Ceuta fighting the "infidels", leaving no descendacy! Because of that, Portugal went to Spain dominance, but not for our choice, but by force, because the next line in the Portuguese throne was the King of Spain!

Also, if you recall, a few years later under the Spanish dominance, the Portuguese people revolted against it, putting in the throne the King D. João I, starting a new dynasty called "dynasty of Avis" and ending the Spanish dominance in Portuguese territory!

So....as you see, the Spanish dominance was short and unwelcome! So including Portugal in Spain is the same thing that including France in England - meaning pure nonsense!

BTW, Zealot, you should include Guimarães in your portuguese city list, since it was the first Capital of Portugal during lots of years, until the conquest of Lisboa from the "infidels"!
_________________________________________________



Portugal
Nation of: Magellan's (from Magellan's Expedition);
Vasco da Gama (Discoverer of the Maritime path to India);
and Pedro Álvares Cabral (Discoverer of Brazil in 1500)

	13-11-2001 19:46									#6
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JayKay... huh... king John I was from the Avis family, but he was the 1st king of the second dynasty. Since the spanish occupation was from 1600 to 1640, under the Philips, and were the third dynasty, John I couldn't possibly succeed the spanish.
It was indeed a John. But it was John IV, Duque of Bragança.

But I agree with everything else!

Guimarães added. But Lisboa should be the capital. BTW, what should be the portuguese unique unit?

	13-11-2001 20:13									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Zealot JayKay... huh... king John I was from the Avis family, but he was the 1st king of the second dynasty. Since the spanish occupation was from 1600 to 1640, under the Philips, and were the third dynasty, John I couldn't possibly succeed the spanish. It was indeed a John. But it was John IV, Duque of Bragança.

Well...i might be mistaken in that part! sorry!

quote: Guimarães added. But Lisboa should be the capital.

Yes...of course Lisboa should be the capital! I didn't say Guimarães should be the Capital, i just said that Guimarães should be added, because it had an important place in the history of our country! I'm glad you agree with me!

quote: BTW, what should be the portuguese unique unit?

Well....i think it should be the "Nau"! A kind of Caravel, but faster! What do you think?

BTW, about the leader - why King John II? Why not King Afonso Henriques? (Just curious)
_________________________________________________



Portugal
Nation of: Magellan's (from Magellan's Expedition);
Vasco da Gama (Discoverer of the Maritime path to India);
and Pedro Álvares Cabral (Discoverer of Brazil in 1500)

	13-11-2001 20:59									#8
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quote: Originally posted by JayKay BTW, about the leader - why King John II? Why not King Afonso Henriques? (Just curious)

Because it was King John II who argued with the pope that the portuguese "sphere" in the Tordesilles treaty should have 100 extra miles to the west. The pope agreed, the spanish agreed, and the portuguese later found that inside those extra 100 miles there was land. That land is now called Brazil.

How did he know that there was land there, if the maritime path to India wasn't discovered yet? That's one of history's misteries...

John II was also the king who gave a boost in discoveries, continuing the work of Infant Henrique. And I think it was John II who was in the throne when Vasco da Gama arrived at India.

The former portuguese empire owes a lot to this king.

	13-11-2001 21:08									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Zealot Because it was King John II who argued with the pope that the portuguese "sphere" in the Tordesilles treaty should have 100 extra miles to the west. The pope agreed, the spanish agreed, and the portuguese later found that inside those extra 100 miles there was land. That land is now called Brazil. How did he know that there was land there, if the maritime path to India wasn't discovered yet? That's one of history's misteries... John II was also the king who gave a boost in discoveries, continuing the work of Infant Henrique. And I think it was John II who was in the throne when Vasco da Gama arrived at India. The former portuguese empire owes a lot to this king.

Agreed!!

BTW, You didn't answer my special unit suggestion!
_________________________________________________



Portugal
Nation of: Magellan's (from Magellan's Expedition);
Vasco da Gama (Discoverer of the Maritime path to India);
and Pedro Álvares Cabral (Discoverer of Brazil in 1500)

	13-11-2001 21:34									#10
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quote: Originally posted by JayKay BTW, You didn't answer my special unit suggestion!

I kinda like it. But the problem is that the way Civ 3 is designed, the golden age is only triggered when your special unit wins its first battle. And a "Nau" is a commerce ship. It was used before cannons were implemented on ships. And before pirates appeard. So we can have a dillema here...

	13-11-2001 21:49									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Zealot I kinda like it. But the problem is that the way Civ 3 is designed, the golden age is only triggered when your special unit wins its first battle. And a "Nau" is a commerce ship. It was used before cannons were implemented on ships. And before pirates appeard. So we can have a dillema here...

Hmmm....yeah....i forgot that!

Well...maybe a Crusader - a mounted unit like the Knight, but with a better attack strenght (+1)!! What do you think?
_________________________________________________



Portugal
Nation of: Magellan's (from Magellan's Expedition);
Vasco da Gama (Discoverer of the Maritime path to India);
and Pedro Álvares Cabral (Discoverer of Brazil in 1500)

	13-11-2001 22:11									#12
	Re: Re: Portuguese in Spain Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Zealot Jesus Crist! No wonder you're an International renowned idiot! Trifna, if that was realistic, then the portuguese language wouldn't be the 7th most spoken in the world! Still today, the portuguese culture is really strong in many aspects, such as the devotion to religion, gastronomy and poetry, etc!

Let go your sarcasm you *** I even have portuguese in my family! I would pass myself from this...

I said portugueses were culturally included through Spanish. Spanish and Portugueses are very similar, culturally. That's why I put them under the same banner, even if they are divided into two conquering countries.

	13-11-2001 22:46									#13
	Portuguese special unit Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I found the perfect special unit!

The "Knight of Christ", who were part of the Order of Christ (who were previously known as Templars) and helped King Afonso V to conquer a big part of north africa and his trading cities from the moors!

I found historical basis in here:

http://www.thornr.demon.co.uk/kchrist/overview.html

In Civ 3 I sugest an extra defense point from the regular Knight. But I will check Civilopedia to think if this is balanced.

	13-11-2001 22:51									#14
	Re: Re: Re: Portuguese in Spain Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Trifna Let go your sarcasm you *** I even have portuguese in my family! I would pass myself from this... I said portugueses were culturally included through Spanish. Spanish and Portugueses are very similar, culturally. That's why I put them under the same banner, even if they are divided into two conquering countries.

If you have protuguese in your family, then or you doesn't know them or you doesn't know Spain, because Spanish and Portuguese cultural are very, very different! Have you ever tried Portuguese and Spanish gastronomy? I think not!

Of course we have our similarities (we are neighbours), but we are culturally totally diferent!
_________________________________________________



Portugal
Nation of: Magellan's (from Magellan's Expedition);
Vasco da Gama (Discoverer of the Maritime path to India);
and Pedro Álvares Cabral (Discoverer of Brazil in 1500)

	13-11-2001 23:16									#15
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Sorry Jay Kay, I can't agree. No matter how you look at it, Spain and Portugal are definitely very close culture-wise. Many things differentiate them, but many others link them together as well. That in the eyes of non-Iberians these similarities are more evident than the differences should be quite revealing. After all, Portugal and Spain share 2300 years of common history, you can't get pass that . We are definitely part of the same civilization. Imho that's our strength. That's what I was trying to highlight in my previous posting above.

PS. About your gastronomy example I bet that Castilian and Galician cuisines are much closer to the Portuguese than to the Basque and Andalusian

PPS. We can have Lisboa as the Iberian civ, I don't mind

	13-11-2001 23:44									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Jay Bee Many things differentiate them, but many others link them together as well. That in the eyes of non-Iberians these similarities are more evident than the differences should be quite revealing.

You know Jay Bee, you are absolutely right on this subject! I keep forgetting that in the eyes of non-Iberian male descendents they get so jealous of the macho latino!

One more thing, Jay Bee. The Iberians as a country was extinct when the Romans conquered the peninsula. So let's not talk any more about Iberians on this thread. Please.

	14-11-2001 01:06									#17
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OK Zealot, this is your thread. But I was talking about the Iberian civilization, not the Iberian country (whatever that means).

	14-11-2001 01:49									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Jay Bee At it's peak, Spain included Portugal

IMHO, this line of thought is wrong. If we start taking civilizations away from civ3 because somewhere in time they belonged to another nation, we'll have to play the game with very few civs. Sure, Portugal was during a small period of time under Spanish domain. Does that overrule the fact that Portugal was once one of the two most prosperous nations on the planet? Does that overwrite the fact that Portugal was once ruler of Brazil, many parts of India, a great deal of south-western Africa, Macao, Timor, etc., and that in most cases this lasted for centuries? Does it make it less important that Portuguese Discoveries showed the world new naval routes, new people, new cultures,... ? I don't think so. Just think of the Romans...

quote: Originally posted by Jay Bee No matter how you look at it, Spain and Portugal are definitely very close culture-wise. Many things differentiate them, but many others link them together as well. That in the eyes of non-Iberians these similarities are more evident than the differences should be quite revealing. After all, Portugal and Spain share 2300 years of common history, you can't get pass that . We are definitely part of the same civilization. Imho that's our strength. That's what I was trying to highlight in my previous posting above.

Again, we're taking civs away from civ3. Now it's because they are close culturally? There's a lot of nations already in the game who share cultural similarities. What kind of problem can this be, when we have Americans in civ3 starting in 4000BC ? Isn't this a little more flagrant problem?
Again, all of Europe was under Roman domain. But still, we somehow have 4 European civilizations in civ3, plus the Romans. And looks like as if more will come. Humm... Sounds like if the nations' own merit play key role here.
I think that if people don't know about Portuguese culture, that's ok. If it's not good for geographical gameplay to have a Portuguese civ, I can understand. If people can't tell Portugal apart from Spain in a map, fine. If people don't think that it's "cool" to have a civ named Portuguese, ok. But those are personal preferences, and I think that in no way they should harm the merits of the Portuguese civilization as one of the greatest ever to exist, nor should it hamper Portugal's right to be amongst the nations in one of the future civ3 expansions.
And you might not believe it, but I'm not just saying this because I happen to be Portuguese...

	14-11-2001 15:44									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Jay Bee But I was talking about the Iberian civilization, not the Iberian country (whatever that means).

Jay Bee, maybe I shouldn't talk about an Iberean country, since it never existed as a country with a unique regent. I have to recognise it wasn't literally true. I'm sorry for that.

But as I posted before, the Iberean civilization was absorbed by the pax romana. And before the Romans came to the Iberean Peninsula, there was nothing great about them! Nothing compared to the glory of the portuguese and spanish empire which started in the XVI century.

And a reminder that when the romans arrived at the iberean peninsula, the predominant tribe on what is today the portuguese territory were the Lusitanians.

Nevertheless, if you know any iberean cultural value that existed before the roman invasion and survived to the present day, I would like to know it.
It would certainly be implemented on a mod or something about an Iberean civilization.

	14-11-2001 16:31									#20
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Whe I said "Iberian" I was not referring to the pre-Roman tribes. "Iberian" would be a fair, objective denomination to lump Spain and Portugal together into a single civ, since both countries occupy the Iberian peninsula. Would you prefer "Hispanics" instead? I wouldn't


PGM,
In my humble opinion to state that "Portugal belonged to another nation" is what constitutes a wrong line of thinking. That's just one interpretation of history. Mine differs. As I said before, the nations of the Iberian peninsula share 2300 years of history in common. That is for me what really matters in terms of defining a civilization.

	14-11-2001 16:36									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Jay Bee As I said before, the nations of the Iberian peninsula share 2300 years of history in common. That is for me what really matters in terms of defining a civilization.

Could you please define that 2300 years timetable (or timeline, sorry about my english, don't know what's the appropriate word)? I'm trying to understand you here.

	14-11-2001 17:15									#22
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Well, actually I have to rectify, it's 2200 years, not 2300

It is accepted that Iberian history commences when the Phoenicians and Greeks visited the peninsula in search for silver, tin and other metals. The Phoenicians founded Gades (Cadiz) ca, 1000 BC and it is believed that not much after the foundation of Cadiz, they established other coastal settlements, including Olisipo (Lisbon) and Malaga. Alternatively, Olisipo might have been founded by the Tartessians, an indigenous civilization that streteched from the W (Algarve) to the E (Almeria and Murcia) of the peninsula. In what is today Northern Portugal there were the Celts, occupying as well what is today Castile, Galicia and Asturias.

After the Phoenicians/Carthaginians, Greeks, Tartessians/Iberians and Celts there were the Romans. After the Romans there were the Visigoths and then the Arabs. Let's stop in 1139 AD.

Up to this point, 2000 years of history have passed in which the territories that Portugal occupies today have been subjected to the same fate as their neighbouring Spanish territories. In 1139 AD Portugal secedes from the young kingdom of Castile to form an independent country. Portuguese independence lasts up to 1580 and is regained again in 1640 to this date. Thus Portugal has existed as an independent entity, separated from the rest of the nations of Iberia for 802 years. Since we are in 2001, that makes 2200 years where the destiny of Portugal was tied to the destiny of the rest of Iberia

Spain as we know it today is younger than Portugal, as it was created in 1479.

	14-11-2001 19:41									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Jay Bee Spain as we know it today is younger than Portugal, as it was created in 1479.

Indeed, Portuguese borders are the oldest ones in Europe, and one of the oldest of the World!

Anyway, i see what you mean JayBee, and i agree with you - we (Portugal and Spain) do have many centurys of history, interaction and competition together, but i don't think those first centurys (those civilizations weren't really Portuguese and Spanish yet) had the same importance as the golden age of Portugal and Spain, as separate nations, in the Discovery Age!

I mean, all the civilizations of the world had a common begining in some part of the history!

So...what i really mean is that we should take into account, what parts of the world history was marked by what civilizations, and only those which had some kind of influence in world history should be included!!

That's why the Americans are included (perhaps not the biggest reason of course - i mean the game is made by americans)! They aren't a really "civilization", they are really a mix of other civilizations (english, french, spanish, africans), but that's what makes them so unique, and that's why they are included in Civilization (and because they marked the 19th and 20th century history)!!

So...in conclusion, what i mean is that Portugal and Spain had a very big impact in world history! They alone dicovered lots of other countrys - the others nations just followed our (Spanish and Portuguese) steps! But all the impact in world history that our two countrys had, was made as two independent and competitive nations!

So...that's why i think we shouldn't join the two nations! Aldo i understand the unification of the Iberian Peninsula (for matters of simplification and common history), i can't agree with it!

But i agree with pretty much everything else you said, Jay Bee!

BTW, i have a suggestion! Why don't we make the Portuguese and the Spanish Civilization apart and also an Iberian Civilization! That way we could have them all!

Got to love that word! ALL ALL ALL ALL ALL ALL! lol
_________________________________________________



Portugal
Nation of: Magellan's (from Magellan's Expedition);
Vasco da Gama (Discoverer of the Maritime path to India);
and Pedro Álvares Cabral (Discoverer of Brazil in 1500)

	14-11-2001 22:34									#24
	Re: Re: Portuguese in Spain Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Zealot Jesus Crist! No wonder you're an International renowned idiot! Trifna, if that was realistic, then the portuguese language wouldn't be the 7th most spoken in the world! Still today, the portuguese culture is really strong in many aspects, such as the devotion to religion, gastronomy and poetry, etc!

I know all what you said and you didn't even gave any argument against what I said... I said this: that Spain and Portugal were close enough culturally to join them in a whole. I didn't even gave a word about if they were strong anywhere and it's not really my first criteria when I wanna know which culture to put.

	15-11-2001 05:01									#25
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I just really wanna say that Portugal is a great country!!!!
they did more for the world than many of the countrys that we know...
I saw one day on the history channel the mankinds achievments top 100, and vasco da gama discovery of india was on a better position than the landing on the moon!!!
So dont try to join Portugal with Spain, just becouse we are a small country...
if you join spain and portugal then you would have to join USA with Canada.
Im playing freeciv and they understand the value of portugal!!
Lisbon is the capital there followed by guimaraes!!!

	15-11-2001 16:06									#26
	Re: Re: Re: Portuguese in Spain Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Trifna I know all what you said and you didn't even gave any argument against what I said... I said this: that Spain and Portugal were close enough culturally to join them in a whole. I didn't even gave a word about if they were strong anywhere and it's not really my first criteria when I wanna know which culture to put.

Ok. Then let me say you one thing:
I've been on vacation in Spain, France, Switzerland, Liechtenstein and Germany. And you know what? The only difference in culture is the language and some of the food. That's why we have an United Europe. Like there are the United States. The way of living is pretty much similar!

But let me tell you also that 20-25 years ago, the Portuguese and the Spanish culture were very different! And if you go back 5 centuries, the difference is even greater. That's why 5 centuries ago the 2 greatest world powers were on the Iberian Peninsula. And 3 centuries ago the greatest world power was on the British isles.

	15-11-2001 16:16									#27
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Have any of you guys ever played 'Alba de América'?

	15-11-2001 16:27									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Itoi Im playing freeciv and they understand the value of portugal!!

You mean you've been playing freeciv and never invited me to play with you? And you consider yourself my friend?

To punish you, I won't invite you to the MoO 2 game that I'm going to make with JayKay tomorrow night on Kahn!
Nor will I lend you my Civ 3 CD! (of course not, that would be piracy)

I'm just kidding with you, Itoi. I just want to ask you your oppinion on the portuguese special unit. Thanks.

	15-11-2001 16:28									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Jay Bee Have any of you guys ever played 'Alba de América'?

No, never heard of it. What is it?

	15-11-2001 16:35									#30
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It's a Civ2 scenario. You guys play/played Civ2, right?