28-11-2001 19:16									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Jay Bee But what do you think of what I wrote above about Isabella marrying the Portuguese heir instead of the Argonese heir? Wouldn't that have changed everything?

Yeah! Portugal would rule Spain!

	28-11-2001 20:13									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Jay Bee okay, okay! But what do you think of what I wrote above about Isabella marrying the Portuguese heir instead of the Argonese heir? Wouldn't that have changed everything?

It would be old news, wouldn't it?
I mean, both houses had many mariages. Remember D. Beatriz, daughter of D. Fernando, the last King of Portugal's first dinasty.
Back then, both crowns would be joined under the same King, and Portuguese nobleman didn't accepted it. Do you believe
Castille would have accepted it the other way arround?

I recall some stories regarding the "accidental death" of a heir of the Portuguese Crown that would also receive the crown of Castille.

I can't recall who was that King, and am not even sure if it is true history or legend but i'll try to check it out.

Don't take this the wrong way, but, here in Portugal we have a saying: "From Spain, no good wind, nor good mariage".
(As you may notice after reading the next post, I edited the saying after Jay Kay's correction - Thanks Jay Kay )

I think the reason is the number of mariages between the Royal Houses of Portugal and Spain that almost caused the loss of Portuguese Independence. If that saying survived history, maybe is because no-one, particularly, the Portuguese, in those days, were very keen on the joining of the Crowns.

	29-11-2001 14:13									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns Don't take this the wrong way, but, here in Portugal we have a saying: "From Spain, no good wing, nor good mariage".

I think is wind not wing!
_________________________________________________



Portugal
Nation of: Magellan's (from Magellan's Expedition);
Vasco da Gama (Discoverer of the Maritime path to India);
and Pedro Álvares Cabral (Discoverer of Brazil in 1500)

	01-12-2001 06:09									#94
	Portugal is not a part of Spain. Increase the size of your Attachments

Civilization is a lot about "what if", in my opinion. What if the Portuguese fought off the Spanish and maintained independence? Their empire would have probably flourished for a long time.

It's appalling to say that the Portuguese should be included as a part of Spain, when there is clearly a distinct culture and history. This is especially insulting when it's the Spanish that really propelled the downfall of the Portuguese Empire.

I propose Alfonso as the great leader of Portugal because he had a long reign of expansion and recognition and established the line. I also nominate Prince Henry the Navigator as one of the leaders because his explorations helped begin the colonization of Africa, the Madeiras Islands, and the Azores.

Portugal's golden age really started during the reign of John I (1385-1433) who began the long-lasting alliance with Britain and commenced the most glorious period in the nation's history. He also fathered Prince Henry the Navigator.

Portugal is definitely commercial and expansionist.

	02-12-2001 18:28									#95
	Re: Portugal is not a part of Spain. Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by siredgar Civilization is a lot about "what if", in my opinion. What if the Portuguese fought off the Spanish and maintained independence? Their empire would have probably flourished for a long time. It's appalling to say that the Portuguese should be included as a part of Spain, when there is clearly a distinct culture and history. This is especially insulting when it's the Spanish that really propelled the downfall of the Portuguese Empire. I propose Alfonso as the great leader of Portugal because he had a long reign of expansion and recognition and established the line. I also nominate Prince Henry the Navigator as one of the leaders because his explorations helped begin the colonization of Africa, the Madeiras Islands, and the Azores. Portugal's golden age really started during the reign of John I (1385-1433) who began the long-lasting alliance with Britain and commenced the most glorious period in the nation's history. He also fathered Prince Henry the Navigator.

Hurray...finally someone that understands a bit of Portugal and their importance and independence from Spain from every aspect!

quote: Originally posted by siredgar Portugal is definitely commercial and expansionist.

Yeah, i think we all agree with those abilities! They're definitely the best choices for the Portuguese Civ!
_________________________________________________



Portugal
Nation of: Magellan's (from Magellan's Expedition);
Vasco da Gama (Discoverer of the Maritime path to India);
and Pedro Álvares Cabral (Discoverer of Brazil in 1500)

	02-12-2001 20:57									#96
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I need some help ending Portuguese History.

Can someone help filling these gaps.

After Vasco da Gama's Expedition...

... Portuguese navigators arrive to Japan and introduce the rifle to the Japonese. So... ultimately the Portuguese are to be blamed for Pearl Herbour

... Portuguese convince China to give them Macau as a payment to get rid of the Pirates in the Sea of China. Turns out many of those Pirates were acting with the knowledge and goodwill of the Portuguese rulers, in those territories.

...Luís Vaz de Camões writes "Os Lusiadas", one of the few
Epic Poems in History.

... D. Sebastião goes to Alcacer Quibir in seach for glory and dies without a direct heir to the Portuguese Thrown.

... Phillip II of Spain becomes Phillip I of Portugal. Portuguese gold is used to finance the "Invencivel Armada".

... During this time, Angra do Heroismo never surrendered to the Spaniards (please confirm this).

... Piracy in the Indic Ocean, by the English, Dutch and French make trade with India almost impossible. Brasilian gold and sugar become the prime sources of income of the Portuguese Empire.

... D. João, the Duque of Bragança, leads a revolt against Phillip III of Portugal, IV of Spain. Phillip intends to join the crowns. With the aid of the English, a Portuguese King returns to the Trhown of Portugal. The King's Crown is bestowed to the Virgin Mary, thus becoming the everlasting Queen of Portugal (even in our current Republican times)

... The French Invasions force the Portuguese crown to flee to Brasil. Portugal is oficially a British Protectorate. During these days
Spain takes possession of Olivença.

... The colonization of Brasil trully get's it's major strenght. Through the efforts of men known as "Bandeirantes" Brasil was explored and it's borders were set far west than the Tordesilles Treaty defined. The "bandeirantes" were simply taking the flags ("bandeiras") that marked the Brasilian border and puting them, again further and further West.

... On returning, D. João VI, leaves his son, D. Pedro rulling Brasil.
He will declare the Independence of Brasil soon after. Portugal looses his most prized possession. Angola is now the crown jewel, with his gold and diamonts. In the XX century oil will also stimulate the great powers greed on that territory.

... The Portuguese Crown becomes increasingly decadent. After surrendering to an Ultimatum from Ancient Ally Britain, the Monarky falls. In 1910, Portugal is a Republic.

... After changing so many Governments and Presidents as some Portuguese Football teams change their coach , Portugal enter a 48 year period of Dictatorial Regime, starting 1926.

... Portugal set himself as a neutral country in WWII. Lisbon becomes a center of spy activity. Portugal sells both to the Germans, that help support the Dictatorial Regime, and to the Ancient Allies, the British. Much of the Volframium sold to the Germans ends up being just rocks. The Portuguese blame the Resistence of the fact and keep the money.

... In 1965 the Colonial War begins, and so the end of the Portuguese Empire.

... In 1974, Portugal is a Democracy. In that day, not a single man died. The Carnation Revelution "Revolução dos Cravos" is one of the most peacefull transition to democracy in Mankind's History.

... In 1975, Portugal looses his final colonial possessions. It's the end of the Portuguese Empire, which lasted for almost 400 years

... In 199... (anyone recalls the date) the first Portuguese Satellite is sent to Space. Portugal enters the Space Race.

Please, fill in the gaps on this.

Thank you!

	02-12-2001 21:03									#97
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I think a clarification of this sentence would be in order:

quote: This is especially insulting when it's the Spanish that really propelled the downfall of the Portuguese Empire.

The jewel of the Portuguese crown was Brazil, which would have never been what is today hadn't the Portuguese be allowed to cross the borders established by the Tordesillas Treaty. I would really appreciate it if somebody explained to me what had Spain to do with the downfall of the Portuguese Empire. The opposite however would certainly be a matter for interesting debate. This, and other similar things (e.g. Castile (NOT Spain)-Portugal reunification.etc...) but it seems my Portuguese neighbors (and I hope friends ) do not enjoy playing the what-if game. As I said elsewhere, what saddens me is that Portugal has much more to offer than the usual "we-are-no-Spain" thing. What parcels of sovereignity did Portugal lose under Filipe I (Felipe II of Spain)? Was Portugal and its empire ruled by Castile as was the Netherlands, Italy or the New Spain? You tell me.


PS. Please do not accuse me of 'Iberian unionist'. This is just how History was and how it has been told to us depending on our birthplace.

	02-12-2001 21:19									#98
	You're right, Jay Be. Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

We can't blame Spain for loosing our Empire.
After the Restauration, Portugal regained all his territorial possessions.

The only thing Filipe I of Portugal can be acused is of draining the Portuguese Treasure to finance the "Armada". But he did the same to the Spanish Treasure.

Also many Portuguese Kings almost ruined Portugal with multimillionaire buildings, as the Convento the Mafra, after the Restauration of Independence.

You are also right when saying it's all History.
Nowadays Portugal is but a small country and much of our Economy is related with yours (Spain is our primal Client and Supplier). Also we, as the French and the German, the British and the German, the Greeks and the Turkish,... should realize that the new times we live in are more of cooperation than of competition.
Culturarly, with all our rich differences we must realize we are all European! Hopefully, one day the all World realize we are all equal Men and Women, and ancestral hatered may be a thing of the past.

	02-12-2001 21:30									#99
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Eco glad you understood my point. Of course I would have liked to see the Spanish AND the Portuguese in Civ3! I would have liked to have them both in Civ2 too! (actually there there was a time I also campaigned for that ). But given the circumstances, I thought that a stronger case could be made for inclusion in Civ3 if the two countries were put together. Exclusively from a historical point of view, that would have made a lot of sense. Consider as well the name of the game.

PS. I promise not to hijack your thread again

	03-12-2001 01:36									#100
	I said propelled, not main cause. Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

There are other reasons for Portugal's decline, but Spain's acquisition of it had a significant impact didn't it?

By the way, no one responded to my proposals about Alfonso and Prince Henry the Navigator.

	03-12-2001 01:56									#101
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Significant impact? How would that be? Oh, and Spain did not 'acquire' Portugal, Philip II did. That's exactly the misunderstanding I have been fighting against

	03-12-2001 15:41									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Jay Bee I would have liked to have them both in Civ2 too! (actually there there was a time I also campaigned for that ).

You?!? Really? Do you know you can post that in this thread? Because everything pro-portuguese is welcome!

quote: Originally posted by Jay Bee PS. I promise not to hijack your thread again

You better not, or it's time for you Mr.!

	03-12-2001 16:43									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Zealot You?!? Really?

Yes, really. Why would that surprise you? Portugal deserved inclusion in Civ2 as much as anyone else. And remember, Civ2 already included the Spanish, so no need to make a stronger case there by placing Portugal and Spain together

	03-12-2001 17:03									#104
	Portuguese Leaders Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by siredgar By the way, no one responded to my proposals about Alfonso and Prince Henry the Navigator.

Sorry about that siredgar.

I believe, we have a tight competition between D. Afonso Henriques e D. João II for the role of the Portuguese Civilization's Great Leader.

You point correctly to the fact that D. Afonso Henriques was the Portuguese King that has conquered the biggest part of the current Portuguese territory. But compared to what was once the territorial presence of Portugal in the world (Angola, for instance is nearly 6 times the size of Portugal, and Brasil... well, no comparison is possible ), our current territory is but a drop in an immense ocean!

Now, by studying our history, some of which I resume in a previous post, you can see that D. João II takes a very strong role in giving to the Portuguese the opportunity to secure our place in Universal History. It is a known fact that D. João II prepared the two major Portuguese Expeditions: Vasco da Gama's Discouvery of the Maritimal Route to India and Pedro Alvares Cabral "Discouvery" of Brasil. He also negotiated the Treaty of Tordesilles, assuring that Portugal would possess the territory of Brasil. The sequence of expeditions that allowed Vasco da Gama to reach India is a masterplan by itself: the journey of Diogo Cão through the Congo River to see if it was there the end of Africa, and ulitmatelly contacting the African King of Congo; the journey of Bartolomeu Dias crossing the Tourmentuous Cape and then returning (when he could actually go further) just to inform the King, prove it was not a subject left to chance.
That's why he was the "Perfect Prince"!

As for the Infante D. Henrique (or Prince Henry the Navigator, as you refered), I don't see him as much of a military heroe but much of a "Scientific Advisor" (civ-wyze). But I think his name must be connected to the Portuguese Civilization in some way and making him a Leader seems to me a good one.

	04-12-2001 00:56									#105
	D. Afonso is Alfonso, I assume? Remove this text

Also, in my opinion, it's not really whoever conquered the most territory who deserves to be the great leader! It is the person who played a pivotal role in its history. After all, Joan of Arc did not conquer more territory than Napoleon. But she may have not been as good a choice as Napoleon since he had greater influence, I think: Napoleonic Code, etc.

	04-12-2001 02:23									#106
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I presume you presume correctly siredgar.

It's just that Alfonso is not a Portuguese name (Afonso is the right spelling) and also our first King, the first Afonso is known as D. Afonso Henriques and not as D. Afonso I.

But I have to say your last post confused me:
Do you still think D. Afonso Henriques is the best choice?

	04-12-2001 03:47									#107
	Well, you know it's going to be "Alfonso". Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

The game is in English, so it's going to be spelled that way. Anyhow, it is Alfonso who really started Portugal's road to becoming a great power. He is the first king of Portugal and established its expansionist beginnings.

	04-12-2001 04:08									#108
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http://www.en.eun.org/vs/history/po...pt_history.html
"Due to endless fights and negotiations D. Afonso I, first king of Portugal, was awarded by the pope (1179) with the papal bull manifestis probatum thus bringing stability. At the eyes of all the Christian world, that meant the birth of a new kingdom in a part of the world where the fight against the infidels would be reinforced by a backup force of attack (The Palestine and the Peninsula)."

Thus, D. Afonso I, "Alfonso", played a significant role in a global struggle. He established the kingdom of Portugal, fought off the Spanish and the Moors, brought stability to the region, and expanded into important territory. He actually fought in the battles starting out as little more than "a quasi-independent guerrilla chief", not unlike Joan of Arc for France. He really started everything for the nation of Portugal.

D. Joao II, "John I", primarily commissioned exploratory voyages abroad. It is without a doubt he greatly expanded the empire and he is often described as the ruler who commenced the most glorious period in Portuguese history. However, it is not always the person who conquers the most territory or who achieves the greatest glory that becomes the great leader in Civilization III.

Alfonso is clearly more memorable and had a greater impact at a more crucial period in time for Portugal. He is the pivotal figure in the country's history, in my opinion.

	04-12-2001 04:52									#109
	Re: Well, you know it's going to be "Alfonso". Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by siredgar The game is in English, so it's going to be spelled that way. Anyhow, it is Alfonso who really started Portugal's road to becoming a great power. He is the first king of Portugal and established its expansionist beginnings.

I'm really not following you here, my friend.

First: The English equivalent of Afonso is Alphonse. So why Alfonso?

Second: The site you refer in the previous post calls D. Afonso Henriques Afonso I and not Alfonso I. So, why stick with a wrong name?

As for D. João II, let me help you:
The second dinasty begun with D. João I. His son was D. Duarte.
His grandson was D. Afonso V and, finally, D. João II, "O Principe Perfeito" was his great-grandson.

If you notice the previous posts, you will see that the Portuguese Culture is one of Trade, (Maritimal) Adventure, Exploration, not a Militaristic one. D. Afonso Henriques was a great man in his time, but, if we compare the territory we gave to Portugal with the presence D. João II assure to Portugal in the World, well... there is no possible comparison! D. Afonso Henriques would best represent a Militaristic Portugal, but the Portuguese just aren't like that.

As for D. João II, I t ake from the site you refer:
"From here on king D. João II was the leader of the Indies reached by sea sailing along the African coast. The known maps showed that that was impossible to accomplish, for in those maps the African coast was straight down until the south pole without any access to Indian ocean, however the Portuguese navigators and merchants experience indicated that it might be possible for them to connect the Atlantic ocean to the Indian ocean.

D. João II organised several voyages:
Diogo Cão reached the Zaire (Congo) river mouth in 1483;
Bartolomeu Dias sailed around the Cape of Good Hope, until than Known as Cape of the Torments, in 1487.

The doorway to the Indies was opened, the land of the spices and the luxurious products. Meanwhile Spain had also joined the expansion race, and, to solve several conflicts the two countries drawn a treaty in 1494, the Treaty of Tordesillas, in which they agreed to share among them all the found or found-to-be lands.

Vasco da Gama reached the Indies in 1498, in the reign of D. Manuel I.
The second expedition sent to the Indies was commanded by Pedro Álvares de Cabral, but on that voyage he officially found the Brazil in 1500. "

As I said... is beyond comparison!

My thoughts, though.

Anyone else's?

	04-12-2001 10:39									#110
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In English-text history books, he is called Alfonso I.

	04-12-2001 14:39									#111
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quote: Originally posted by siredgar In English-text history books, he is called Alfonso I.

But this is not english history!

It's just like Magellan's - the real name is Magalhães!

I would really prefer that the true names were used (portuguese ones), but since even, in civ 3, "Joan d'Arc" is called "Joan of Arc" and it's French, i don't think that us (being Portuguese and smaller than France) can beat it!

It seems that the english language just translate everything, things that shouldn't be translated! I don't recall anyone foreign having is name translated in Portuguese history books! I think it's a question of education/culture - the higher culture civilizations just assimilate lower culture civilizations just like in civ 3 as in real life. I hope it wasn't this way, because many wars have been fought because of this culture dominance, and many others will come because of the same thing!

It seems that whoever is in the world dominance, trys to enforce their culture over the others (i'm not trying to judge anyone, this happened all over the Human history - even with the Portuguese and Spanish trying to enforce their religion to the American Natives and to the Arabs), and that's really sad, because diversification is really the best caractheristic of the Humanity!

Hope i didn't bored anyone! I just wanted to make a point!
_________________________________________________



Portugal
Nation of: Magellan's (from Magellan's Expedition);
Vasco da Gama (Discoverer of the Maritime path to India);
and Pedro Álvares Cabral (Discoverer of Brazil in 1500)

	04-12-2001 17:12									#112
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quote: Originally posted by siredgar In English-text history books, he is called Alfonso I.

Well, what can I say?

I can say this:
Then, English-text history books are wrong.

By the way, "Jeanne D'Arc" sound much better than "Joan D'Arc",
as "Katerina" reads much better than "Katherine".

But, who knows, maybe a Portuguese edition may call
the America Leader "Abraão Lincoln", the English Leader
"Isabel I", the French Leader "Joana D'Arc"... That would be a riot.
Of course we don't have a big enough market to justify it... mmm... maybe with Brasil, we have.
Who knows, we might try to make a translation.
( Ecowiz runs in search of hidding from fearce InforGames layers )

Seriously, what saddens me in the process is that the name you read in your english-text history book is not Portuguese, nor English... is a Spanish name!
No wonder most of you guys think Portugal is a Spanish Province!!!

We must have made something veeery wrong in the past to deserve such a treatment!

	05-12-2001 03:18									#113
	Any comments? Please! Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

"Friends... countrymen... lend me your..." opinions!

What do you think is lacking in the Portuguese History's Summary?

I need your help on this.

Also there seems to be some indecision on the Portuguese Leader.

Other questions:

Do we use the Nau as the Portuguese UU? How will it be (carries more units, has one more move,...)? Do we use the Knight of the Order (of Christ)?

Do you think we should have Magellan's Journey to start the portuguese Golden Age?

What will it be the Portuguese Golden Age? The Rennaissance?

What will be the prefered government (Monarcky?)?
What will be the least prefered (Democracy, Communism?)?

Do you remember any other cities?

Do you remember any other heroes?

We still have so much work, and so little time!

Everyone's help (Portuguese or not) is much welcomed!!!

	05-12-2001 11:44									#114
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"Abraão Lincoln"

LOL, I see how ridiculous this sounds and understand your point.

Perhaps we should start a movement to call all countries by their real names, too?

Italia, not Italy
Deutscheland, not Germany
Nihon, not Japan
Hankuk, not Korea
Brasilia, not Brazil

However, with multi-linguistic countries like Switzerland, English serves as a neutral language (Switzerland, rather than Suisse, Schweiz, or Svizzera).

	05-12-2001 16:02									#115
	Re: Any comments? Please! Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns "Do you think we should have Magellan's Journey to start the portuguese Golden Age?

Oh come on, Eco! That would be funny for many reasons, the least important being that Magellan's job was to break the Portuguese monopoly of commerce with the Indies! It's amusing that you love Magallanes so much when what he actually did was to side with the enemy to hurt his own country.

	05-12-2001 16:28									#116
	Re: Any comments? Please! Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns Also there seems to be some indecision on the Portuguese Leader.

The way i see it, both leaders are good choices (D. Afonso Henriques or D. João II), aldo one could say that without D. Afonso Henriques Portugal would not even exist, D. João II made out of Portugal a leading nation in it's time and knowned all over the globe for their achivements!

So i think perhaps D. João II is a better choice, but i will not disagree if D. Afonso Henriques is the chosen leader, because they both had a great impact in Portugal, but as i said D. João II made that Portugal had a big impact in the globe too, not just in Portugal!

quote: Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns Do we use the Nau as the Portuguese UU? How will it be (carries more units, has one more move,...)? Do we use the Knight of the Order (of Christ)?

I think the "Nau", aldo it would be the more accurante special unit, isn't the most balanced one, because in order to gain the Golden Age you'd have to win with it in a battle, and if all Civs are in the same tech level, attacking Caravels with Nau's would mean losing almost all the time (1 Attack against 2 Defense), aldo one could argue that in Civ 3 combat is so random that you could win a lot of times with inferior units! But since the patch for civ 3 is almost out and that could be one of the improvements, or at least i hope so - i'm tired of losing Battleships to Ironclads and things like that; we should think of another Special Unit!

So i think the Knight of the Order of Christ (also knowned as Templars) is more suitable to this purpose, once it could be more balanced! This could be a Knight with an extra attack point 5A/3D/2M! I think this is far more balanced than the extra defense point proposed. This way the Knight would be more powerful attacking (as in real life), and would still be less powerful than the cavalry (6 Attack)! The +1 on defense proposed would unbalance things, because would make this special knight a more good defender than the cavalry and as powerful as the first gunpowder units (muskets), and would be unreal, since the power of Knights is the offense and not in the defense!

quote: Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns Do you think we should have Magellan's Journey to start the portuguese Golden Age?

If my proposed abilities to the Portuguese civ is accepted (Commercial and Expansionist) then the Magellan's Voyage is going to trigger a golden age in the Portuguese Civ because that wonder have those same abilities, aldo another Wonder that's more Portuguese (like the discover of the Maritime path to India (+commerce in city) or the School of Sagres - perhaps doubling science in that city) would be more accurate, since Magellan's Voyage is Spanish!

quote: Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns What will it be the Portuguese Golden Age? The Rennaissance?

Middle Ages that's for sure! Navigation as a Pre-requisite to the Wonder or Chivalry as a pre-requisite to the Special Unit!

quote: Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns What will be the prefered government (Monarcky?)? What will be the least prefered (Democracy, Communism?)?

Prefered - Monarchy
Least Prefered - Communism

Tell me what you think!
_________________________________________________



Portugal
Nation of: Magellan's (from Magellan's Expedition);
Vasco da Gama (Discoverer of the Maritime path to India);
and Pedro Álvares Cabral (Discoverer of Brazil in 1500)

	05-12-2001 19:16									#117
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quote: Originally posted by siredgar Brasilia, not Brazil

Where did you get that one? The name portuguese gave to that territory was Brasil! Brasilia is the Brazilian Capital!
And Brazil with a "z" is in english. In portuguese is with an "s"

	06-12-2001 10:26									#118
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My bad on "Brasilia".

Where can I get more information on the Nau (besides this thread)?

Thanks.

	06-12-2001 15:02									#119
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quote: Originally posted by siredgar My bad on "Brasilia". Where can I get more information on the Nau (besides this thread)? Thanks.

There you go (i found other sites, but they were in Portuguese and i don't think you are able to read them, so i'll just post the english ones):

- The Portuguese carrack (the english name of "nau") => http://www.nmm.ac.uk/searchbin/sear...lash=false&dev=

- A little more info on the Portuguese carrack => http://surcouf.net/anglais/history.htm

- Exploration throught carrack => http://www.nmm.ac.uk/education/fact...t_explorer.html

- Colombus carrack => http://www1.minn.net/~keithp/ships.htm

BTW, the name "nau" comes from the latin word "nave" wich means ship; vessel.

Hope i'd been of some help! I know this isn't much! But i'll try to find more info!
_________________________________________________



Portugal
Nation of: Magellan's (from Magellan's Expedition);
Vasco da Gama (Discoverer of the Maritime path to India);
and Pedro Álvares Cabral (Discoverer of Brazil in 1500)

	08-12-2001 21:26									#120
	Re: Re: Any comments? Please! Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Jay Bee Oh come on, Eco! That would be funny for many reasons, the least important being that Magellan's job was to break the Portuguese monopoly of commerce with the Indies! It's amusing that you love Magallanes so much when what he actually did was to side with the enemy to hurt his own country.

Jay, you already know my opinion about Sid's choice of Magellan's Expedition as a Wonder of the World, but I will repeat it: when comparing with Vasco da Gama's expeditions anyone can realize that Magelan's Expedition was least important at the time and also least decisive in Human History. Even you must realize that if the main purpose of the expedition led by Fernão de Magalhães (that's the Portuguese name, actually ) was to find another route to India than it was a faillure! Noone ever used that route to reach India, not then, not ever!

But, our friend in Firaxis didn't manage to fix that mistake (and I sent them a message, prior to the game release (maybe not soon enough ). So I believe it's the only reasonable choice in starting the Portuguese Golden Age.

And thinking about it, maybe the fact that Magellan's Expedition was just awaste of Spain's money, due to the Portuguese Dominance, maybe, due to the irony of that fact, it makes a good enough way to start the Portuguese Golden Age!

Also that gives way to have a non-military Unique Unit- my personal favourite. The Portuguese were never known as warmongers and our expeditions in the North of Africa don't really count as the Portuguese most accomplished deeds. So, I believe the biggest chalenge regarding the question "What if I was the Portuguese leader from Day One" is to win through trade and culture and not exactly through military dominance. Of course anyone should be allowed to try, but some kind of "punishment" should arrive from going against the peacefull nature of the Portuguese People. And this punishment might arriving for not being able to make the "Nau" able to win an attack against any military sea unit (which is, more or less, hystorically accurate).