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blackice
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Canada where else...
Sep 2000
time: 00:16
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Neville Chamberlain
Prime Minister of the United Kingdom
September 1938
after signing the Munich Pact with Hitler
"We, the German Führer and Chancellor, and the British Prime Minister, have had a further meeting today and are agreed in recognizing that the question of Anglo-German relations is of the first importance for our two countries and for Europe.
"We regard the agreement signed last night and the Anglo-German Naval Agreement as symbolic of the desire of our two peoples never to go to war with one another again."
Wild cheers erupted, the crowd reiterating, reverberating the last syllables of the Prime Minister's statement. He continued.
"We are resolved that the method of consultation shall be the method adopted to deal with any other questions that may concern our two countries, and we are determined to continue our efforts to remove possible sources of difference, and thus to contribute to assure the peace of Europe."
Later at 10 Downing Street, he added,
"My good friends, for the second time in our history, a British Prime Minister has returned from Germany bringing peace with honor. I believe it is peace for our time... Go home and get a nice quiet sleep."
http://www.btinternet.com/~alexande...es/snevnazi.htm
After the invasion of Poland he said:
We shall enter it with a clear conscience, with the support of the Dominions and the British Empire, and the moral approval of the greater part of the world.
We have no quarrel with the German people, except that they allow themselves to be governed by a Nazi Government. As long as that Government exists and pursues the methods it has so persistently followed during the last two years, there will be no peace in Europe. We shall merely pass from one crisis to another, and see one country after another attacked by methods which have now become familiar to us in their sickening technique.
We are resolved that these methods must come to an end. If out of the struggle we again re-establish in the world the rules of good faith and the renunciation of force, why, then even the sacrifices that will be entailed upon us will find their fullest justification.
Neville Chamberlain - September 1, 1939
Markl learning from history is sometimes more important than creating it repeating it is pure foolishness...
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:16
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So, when we will see Bush charged for war crimes?
Never? You mean that only one country gets all the **** when such stuff happen? Surprise, surprise.
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Saint Marcus
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Scio Me Nihil Scire
Jan 1970
time: 06:16
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quote:
I've had CNN on contstantly the past few, days, and the reports of looting were about people LOOTING TALIBAN GOVERNEMENT OFFICES. |
I take it you're watching CNN USA, and not CNN International. Cause the latter was reporting war crimes in towns like Mazar-e Sharif.
quote:
I would rank the Taliban who were dragged through the streets and ripped up as remarkably restrained for the typical Afghan victory... |
Yes, I know they are barbaric thugs. And yes, they could and will do a lot worse. But that's an explanation, not an excuse.
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NA took the bulk of casuaties. Shouldn't they be compensated by letting some anger out on the Talibans? It's better than US Army doing the killing. |
So we are watching our hands in innocence while we look the other way and let "our friends" (as bush calls them) to kill and loot? How terrible noble of us.
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NA Is better than the Taliban, the Taliban is closer to Holland. |
 I hope I'm not supposed to take anything Bob writes seriously, cause I don't think I can 
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CNN is not the same as CNN International. One is respected news agency which tries to report facts more objectively, the other is for us Americans. |
Ah, there you have it Ted. Watch CNN International please for more objective reports.
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To be fair to you, however, the report of the massacre in Mazar-i-Sharif is of 100 Taliban prisoners. |
When I watched the report was of 600, and today's paper also reports of 600 confirmed excecutions.
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The NA has a habit of killing prisoners of war, which is a war crime, btw. |
It is a war crime indeed, and people have went for prison for less. This is not something we can tolerate, yet that's exactly what we are doing.
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The NA are in many ways worse than the Taleban. |
Exactly. But why are we "civilized" countries supporting the NA thugs?
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The NA, for the most part, seem to be killing Arab and Pakistani Taliban fighters. The Pashtun Taleban seem to have the option of switching sides. |
Yep. But if the Pashtuns don't defect they'll suffer the same faith as the Arabs and Pakistani. Torture, humiliation, and probably excecution.
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(ever notice US media spells it with an 'i' while the Brits use an 'e') |
It's pronounced Taleban in english, that's why. It's usually spelled as Taliban though, but english speakers seem to have a problem with pronouncing the I as an E.
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Markl thugs or no thugs the right way to do things is starting it also involves allowing the people to do their own sorting out. |
So it's ok for them to kill, but it's not ok for the Taliban to kill?
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So now what markl you have an idea lets hear it? |
Easy, we should never have supported the NA (I warned about that from the start). But it's too late now, and the Afghani people will have to suffer for our mistakes once again.
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I would like to hear it markl you seem to think you know more that the entire international community so shoot... |
Didn't the Pakistani warn about this happening? Musharaf warned about not trusting the NA. And he wasn't the only one. So what "entire international community" are you talking about?
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So, MarkL - are you saying an all-foreign US force should be fighting on the ground, after we first fight the NA to get them out of the way, and thereby lose basing rights with Tajikistan and Uzbekistan, rendering the whole point moot? |
We shouldn't have bombed Taliban forces who were fighting with the NA. We also shouldn't have supplied weapons to the NA. Instead, we should have basically ignored the whole NA and fought the Taliban ourselves (for those that thing war is going to solve this situation that is). Without active coalition support the NA would never have gotten this far. Gen David Grange (ret) also holds the same opinion.
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You guys always have all the answers, so I'd like to hear what yours is, for once? |
For one, we should have listened to the Pakistani president. That certainly would have been a good start.
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In the real world, if you want to get something done, you have to get your hands dirty sometimes. It is unrealastic to expect one side in any civil war to show full and complete respect for human rights, that wasn't even the case in the US civil war. |
Did the Geneva Convention even exist during the American Civil War? Also, that happened 150 years ago. And if war crimes are inevitable as you say, then why are we prosecuting Slobo and his gang? And why shouldn't OBL just say the same thing? This makes us little better than he is, and it's sickening. We can't differentiate between the war crimes our enemies do and we (and our allies) do. We can't differentiate between American deaths and Afghani deaths. We claim to be civilized nations, so why don't we act civilized? And letting "our friends" commit war crimes is not a sign of "civilization".
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And by the way, Mark, isn't your country also involved in helping the NA? |
Yep we are. Notice I used the word "we" and not the word "USA" most of the time. I am very much against what the coalition governements are doing, including my own governement. I'm thinking about voting for another party in the next elections, since Labour is supporting this whole thing. I'm thinking about voting for the Greens, who are against the war, at least the way it's fought now. They were in favor af an attack on afghanistan, but not in the way it was carried out. So I'm thinking about voting for them in the next national elections.
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MarkL you're just desperate for some **** to throw. But we don't care what you think. You can get buttlock for all we care. |
If people don't care, why do they post here?
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We are attacking the Taleban for sponsooring terrorists who attacked us. |
I don't think I need to remind you that Al Qaida is active in 68 nations?
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We wouldn't be in Afghanistan otherwise. |
Blair, Powell, Rumsfeld and Bush have said that an objective is to bring peace, democracy, (relative) wealth and freedom to the Afghani people and make life better for them.
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Um, shouldn't you be asking: "Is Kuwait a better place after the Gulf War?" |
How would we know? The Iraqis were only there for a very short period of time. And Kuwait does have an autocracy/aristocracy. The people aren't free there either. But that's a different matter.
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Also, US/UK controlled areas of Iraq are doing quite well right now. |
Huh? Don't you read papers or watch TV? Starvation and epidemics are very common there, especcially in the south (Basra I believe the city is called). It used to be one of the richest areas in the middle east, now it's as poor as Afghanistan and people are suffering.
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So, when we will see Bush charged for war crimes?
Never? You mean that only one country gets all the **** when such stuff happen? Surprise, surprise. |
For his sake I hope Bush doesn't visit Belgium too often. Remember that Sharon has been charged with war crimes there.
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the people of Kabul can listen to music, shave of their beards and be free... do you really think that should be taken away? |
Tell that to the people who's brains are covering the walls in Mazar-e Sharif.
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Hell, if they want to put the bullet in some Taliban's head then do so. The Taliban deserve it. |
How terrible civilized of you. OBL says the USA deserves it too. But then again, you never seem to know what you are talking about and change your opinion every two seconds, so I'll just leave it at that
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It doesn't matter what you think about the war, which is coming to a conclusion because Kandahar is about to fall... |
God you are stupid aren't you? A. Russia captured all Afghani cities yet still lost the war. B. OBL isn't caught still and we have no idea where he is.
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it has been a victory for the Bush adminstration |
You're awfully quick to draw conclusions, shouting victory before any objective has been met. LOL. moron
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Now with tech and industrial markets reviving, this will ensure a second term for Bush. |
US' is in a recesion, world economy is going downhill, OBL is still on the lose, terrorism is still continuing, and you are saying it's going great?  What have they done to you poor Giani? Have you been brainwashed by the CIA? LOL
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drake
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Maine, US
Oct 2000
time: 00:16
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The people in the northern alliance aren't perfect, but they represent the common man a lot better than the holier than thou Taliban.
The people of Kabul sure seemed to be happy to see those f*cks go.
Their opinions count in this situation in a much stronger way than ours...after all it's their lives we're arguing about.
So mark, are you saying that these people shouldn't be happy? Do you think you know what they want? You think you know what is best for them?
I sure wouldn't pretend to know as you do, but from what we've all read, it sounds like the PEOPLE OF KABUL, AFGHANISTAN are pleased to see the current developments.
We've heard over and over that we're breeding more terrorists, which in some regards, may be true, I havent a clue, but isn't it also possible that we're also gaining a lot of support for the future?
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Giancarlo
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Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark L
I take it you're watching CNN USA, and not CNN International. Cause the latter was reporting war crimes in towns like Mazar-e Sharif. |
The Northern Alliance wouldn't fire on their own people. I trust the US government's assurance of this instead of your bullshit assumptions.
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For his sake I hope Bush doesn't visit Belgium too often. Remember that Sharon has been charged with war crimes there. |
Long behold, the communist jackass speaks. Keep your mouth shut.
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Tell that to the people who's brains are covering the walls in Mazar-e Sharif.[/quote
Yes I will. They were taliban terrorist fighters, they deserved what they got for killing 5,000 US civilians and the NA did the killing for us. You ****ing pacifist idiot!
[quote]How terrible civilized of you. OBL says the USA deserves it too. But then again, you never seem to know what you are talking about and change your opinion every two seconds, so I'll just leave it at that |
**** you, my opinion has remained since September 11th and long before. I may seem paranoid but my views are much better than your ignorance. You never seem to know what the hell you are talking about either.
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God you are stupid aren't you? A. Russia captured all Afghani cities yet still lost the war. B. OBL isn't caught still and we have no idea where he is. |
15000 Pound bombs changes this. Along with a 45,000 NA.
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You're awfully quick to draw conclusions, shouting victory before any objective has been met. LOL. moron |
LOL *******. Taliban no longer control the captial Kabul. That was a victory.
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US' is in a recesion, world economy is going downhill, OBL is still on the lose, terrorism is still continuing, and you are saying it's going great? What have they done to you poor Giani? Have you been brainwashed by the CIA? LOL |
Tell the ****ing stock market the same you damn brainwashed idiotic communist. Look at the stock market, already at 9,700... tell the investors that. Tell the 7.1% increase in Retail sales that for October. Check the facts fool.
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:16
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Those who think the Taleban retreat from Kabul is strategic are likely incorrect. From reporters in Kabul, it appears that the Taleban fled in a panic. They left behind their personal items in the barricks, they left behind tanks, and APCs and heavy artilery (course the Allies would have pounded that stuff from the air, so it was useless to them).
I haven't heard of any Taleban intiated genocide. Without evidence, I will put that in the same catagory as the claims of genocide by the Serbs in Kosovo, propaganda. We know that the NA have engaged in genocide, rape, torture. We knew it in '96, which was why the US welcomed the fall of Kabul to the Taleban, and why our government was giving the Taleban money up until 9/11. It's why the Taleban were welcomed as liberators throughout the country.
And yes, the NA are being welcomed as liberators now. Part of that is because you always welcome an invading army as liberators if you want to live. Part of it is because the Taleban were so damned restrictive. (The Afgani people traded liberty for security and got neither, just like the folks who welcome the destruction of the Consitution are doing now).
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MichaeltheGreat
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
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mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark L
Granted the NA aren't as anti-female as the Taliban, but instead they are very anti Pakistan/Arabia. They don't beat women, now they just beat pakistani and arabs. It's a brave new world alright. |
Don't forget the Chechens.
I suppose they should welcome with open arms foreign mercenaries who fought them and aided in the oppression of their countries?
Pakistan and Musharraf "warned against" the NA, because of regional politics. Afghanistan's largest ethnic group is Pashtun, which were originally Pakistani in origin. Historically, Afghanistan has had sea access, with what is now western Pakistan being part of the kingdom of Afghanistan. The current landlocked borders of Afghanistan (which are economically devastating) are a result of warfare with Pakistani tribes, including the Pashtun, which expanded primarily into the Afghani southern plains which produce 80% of the country's food supply.
There has for centuries been major tension between the Pashtun and the other ethnic groups that were "more native" to Afghanistan. India, in part of it's anti-Pakistan strategic policies, has consistently supported Pakistan-unfriendly groups in Afghanistan, for their own purposes. The biggest beneficiary of supported by India has been the NA, and THAT, not humanitarian whimpering, is Musharraf's biggest concern.
Pakistan does not want an ally of its chief enemy on its northern border.
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MichaeltheGreat
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
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mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:16
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Those who think the Taleban retreat from Kabul is strategic are likely incorrect. From reporters in Kabul, it appears that the Taleban fled in a panic. They left behind their personal items in the barricks, they left behind tanks, and APCs and heavy artilery (course the Allies would have pounded that stuff from the air, so it was useless to them). |
Most of those were not their hardcore supporters, but working stiffs who joined up for a paying job. The "panic" was most likely at the prospect of being betrayed by locals, and hung out to dry. Nobody fighting there have been particularly disciplined or well ordered, so orderly retreats are essentially unheard of. (the toughest thing to accomplish with an army is an orderly retreat, and it's impossible with an armed mob)
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I haven't heard of any Taleban intiated genocide. Without evidence, I will put that in the same catagory as the claims of genocide by the Serbs in Kosovo, propaganda. |
Genocide, no. Large numbers of executions of collaborators with their enemies, POWs, etc., are well documented.
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We know that the NA have engaged in genocide, rape, torture. |
Ah, yes, if we use two standards for the term genocide. If a Taleban kills a Tajik NA sympathizer, that is of course in a different category altogether than a NA fighter killing a Pashtun Taleban sympathizer.
Rape of captured females and torture have been part of the Afghan warrior culture for a lot longer than the west has been aware of Afghanistan's existence.
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We knew it in '96, which was why the US welcomed the fall of Kabul to the Taleban, and why our government was giving the Taleban money up until 9/11. It's why the Taleban were welcomed as liberators throughout the country. |
Not quite. The Taleban were a unified force, the Mujahedin and what later became the NA were only unified by opposition to a common enemy, and once "in control" they immediately proceeded to fight each other, at the expense of the unarmed populace.
Any unified control is preferable to unending civil war.
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Part of that is because you always welcome an invading army as liberators if you want to live. |
Damn straight, bro. You and I would be jumping and dancing in the streets if we were Afghani civilians.
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(The Afgani people traded liberty for security and got neither, just like the folks who welcome the destruction of the Consitution are doing now). |
I'm just losing soooooo much liberty now. 
How about a different, legal solution to detaining foreigners suspected of terrorist acts indefinitely? How about instead the US government acted within it's legal authority, and revised the number of authorized visas on a country by country basis, and told everyone in the US from the countries it didn't like that they had 30 days to leave? Visas are revocable at any time.
Some parts of the "PATRIOT" bill are going to get whacked around in the courts, but most of the bill provisions aren't that onerous, except to the X-files crowd. 
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MOBIUS
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Prifysgol Caerdydd
Dec 1999
time: 15:16
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Those who think the Taleban retreat from Kabul is strategic are likely incorrect. From reporters in Kabul, it appears that the Taleban fled in a panic. They left behind their personal items in the barricks, they left behind tanks, and APCs and heavy artilery (course the Allies would have pounded that stuff from the air, so it was useless to them). |
Yes, it is appearing like a major disintergration after all now that Kandahar appears to be falling or about to fall! Though there will be a number that cannot afford to give up like the leadership and elements of Al-Qaeda who will take to the hills...
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I haven't heard of any Taleban intiated genocide. Without evidence, I will put that in the same catagory as the claims of genocide by the Serbs in Kosovo, propaganda. |
Then you haven't heard about their retreat from Bamiyan, it's a footnote on the BBC site...
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We know that the NA have engaged in genocide, rape, torture. We knew it in '96, which was why the US welcomed the fall of Kabul to the Taleban, and why our government was giving the Taleban money up until 9/11. It's why the Taleban were welcomed as liberators throughout the country. |
You're kidding right? They're just as bad as each other! I guess you never saw the 'Beneath the Veil' or 'Unholy War' documentaries - the Football stadium in Kabul was an execution/torture centre for killing anyone that broken their rules. Women included!!!
There's a part where Wakil Motawakil (foreign minister) was literally joking with his interviewer, when the interviewer said that the facility (built by the UN) was supposed to be used for sport. He said that if the UN would build them a torture/execution facility then they'd make it into a football stadium again!!!
BTW, apparently 'Taliban' appears to be the correct spelling - nothing comes up when you search for definitions with 'Taleban'...
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14-11-2001 17:09
Oh wait, there was none! All of those countries are now economic basketcases.
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