14-11-2001 22:37									#61
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BREAKING NEWS!!!!!!!!

FG AGREES WITH MARK L that the N.Alliance are nothing but thugs and war criminals



But unlike mark I realize it has to be done. A full scale Coalition invasion was definetaly out of the question.

	14-11-2001 22:48									#62
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MarkL:

Is THIS the CNN article you were referring to?? Note a couple of important qualifications in bold below:

quote: TERMEZ, Uzbekistan (CNN) -- Northern Alliance fighters have killed as many as 600 people since they seized the northern Afghan city of Mazar-e Sharif on Friday, Western officials in the Uzbek border town of Termez have told CNN. CNN has not been able to independently confirm this information, but Western officials who have daily contact with personnel in Mazar-e Sharif say that the majority of those killed are Pakistani and Kashmiri fighters as well as family members of Chechen fighters who have sided with the Taliban forces in Afghanistan. Western officials say about 100 men are in custody.

Chegitz:

quote: I haven't heard of any Taleban intiated genocide.

Unfortuantely THIS BBC article (mentioned by Mobius?) provides a recent example.

quote: The BBC has confirmed that the central Afghan town of Bamiyan was totally destroyed by the Taleban before they fled over the weekend. Evidence has also emerged of Bosnian-style ethnic cleansing in the region involving the execution of hundreds of local ethnic Hazara men.

As if the Taliban's mercilless application of the most rigid interpretation of Islamic law were not enough...

edit:
None of this should be interpreted to mean that the NA even faintly resemble saints. The NA to a man need to be made to understand immediately, if they do not already, that it is in their long-term best interest to behave in a civilized manner.

	14-11-2001 23:14									#63
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS BTW, apparently 'Taliban' appears to be the correct spelling - nothing comes up when you search for definitions with 'Taleban'...

It's an anglicization issue.

They spelled it "taleban" on their now-defunct website.

	14-11-2001 23:23									#64
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You live in Mexico, bro.

I cross into the US four-five times a week for work, and have to produce ID, am subject to search, background check, wants and warrants check, anytime I go across. I've actually been searched just once, checked out for W&W four times, but generally just have to waste time waiting in line with the peasants, on foot or in cars.

That's why I now cross on my mountain bike, because cyclists can cut to the front of the lines, and get processed through like cars, but without trunks and fender wells to search.

Most of the stuff that PATRIOT potentially effects I have in the US (websites, mail servers, telephones). When in the US, my wife, her family, and lots of our friends are non-resident aliens, and are technically covered under the relevant provisions of PATRIOT dealing with aliens.

There's also no Fourth Amendment or Habeus Corpus here, so if the gringo Feds really had a hard on for me for some reason, they could nicely ask their compadres Méxicanos down here, and get our house searched and me delivered and anything they wanted impounded seized and delivered. It just doesn't happen, though. Police here (especially Federal police like the PFP and PGR) have virtually no checks on their authority, but they really don't go out of their way to **** with people very often at all.

	14-11-2001 23:29									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith Chegitz: Unfortuantely THIS BBC article (mentioned by Mobius?) provides a recent example.As if the Taliban's mercilless application of the most rigid interpretation of Islamic law were not enough...

	14-11-2001 23:42									#66
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory BREAKING NEWS!!!!!!!! FG AGREES WITH MARK L that the N.Alliance are nothing but thugs and war criminals But unlike mark I realize it has to be done. A full scale Coalition invasion was definetaly out of the question.

It's going to take a while 'til Mark learns that the old "guilt trip" trick ain't working.

	14-11-2001 23:44									#67
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory BREAKING NEWS!!!!!!!! FG AGREES WITH MARK L that the N.Alliance are nothing but thugs and war criminals But unlike mark I realize it has to be done. A full scale Coalition invasion was definetaly out of the question.

It's this kind of thinking that got us bombed.

	15-11-2001 00:05									#68
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It took 7 million dead Germans to get to Hitler and 2 millions dead Japanese to get the Japanese War-Hawks. I bet at least half of those people can be called "innocent" by today's standard. If we can get Al Qaeda and Taliban at a cost of only few thousand "innocent" lives, it's definitely worth the war.

	15-11-2001 00:16									#69
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No we got bombed because we are the symbol of the West. And we'll show them what they're messing with. "Let's roll!"

	15-11-2001 00:34									#70
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Right on, GP... and it won't stop with the Taliban, next is Saddam Hussein. He needs an early retirement. The Western World can eliminate any terrorist supporting government whenever they want.

Mark L, shut up, you do not represent any views besides that of the taliban.

	15-11-2001 02:10									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo The Western World can eliminate any terrorist supporting government whenever they want.

So I take it we'll be targetting the US next, as the biggest sponsor of international terrorism?

	15-11-2001 02:12									#72
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not again che please

	15-11-2001 02:16									#73
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I can't help it. Gian just make me want to bash him over the head with facts.

	15-11-2001 02:28									#74
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I can't help it. Gian just make me want to bash him over the head with facts.

Facts are to Gians head like a nerf ball is to my ass. They just bounce off without making any kind of impression.

	15-11-2001 02:29									#75
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I can't say I'm surprised about this, though...

quote: I haven't heard of any Taleban intiated genocide.

IIRC, there was an incident in Mazar al-Sharif a while back where the Taliban slaughtered a few thousand of the locals.

	15-11-2001 02:40									#76
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If the US doesn't bother ensuring some better form of government (i.e. non-NA dictatorship) for post-Taliban Afghanistan, then this campaign will have accomplished remarkably little. It will simply have been a revenge mission of questionable deterrent value.

If the US does bother setting up a stable, sane Afghani government then they'll have killed two birds with one stone, and I'll applaud them for it. They're making such promises now, but I'm gonna wait and see what happens when the marriage of convenience between the US and the NA begins to break down.

	15-11-2001 03:32									#77
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KH,

We would not be in Afghanistan if it were not for the Sep11th events. We are not there becuase we want to nation build. If we can do some along the way, that's groovey. But it's not why we're there.

It's not only a revenge mission. It's also to show any other government that sponsors this kind of terror what happens. You sponosr terrorism like this, you lose control of your country. I think the average thug can understand this logic.

	15-11-2001 03:36									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Transcend It took 7 million dead Germans to get to Hitler and 2 millions dead Japanese to get the Japanese War-Hawks. I bet at least half of those people can be called "innocent" by today's standard. If we can get Al Qaeda and Taliban at a cost of only few thousand "innocent" lives, it's definitely worth the war.

That's a good point.

In 1939, "Germany" invaded Poland. In 1941, "Japan" attacked the US. In 2001, "Afghanistan" attacked the US.

We are getting better at avoiding civilian casualties, but this wouldn't have been considered an issue a few decades ago.

	15-11-2001 04:15									#79
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I can't help it. Gian just make me want to bash him over the head with facts.

Facts you don't have, fool.
The US doesn't support terrorism that doesn't benefit itself, but now they don't even support terrorism that benefits the US.

Oh and Communists never have facts.

	15-11-2001 04:36									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Mark L, shut up, you do not represent any views besides that of the taliban.

you can say this, but it is certainly not the truth. If you look at the situation rationally, the NA are just as bad as the taliban. They both have committed genocidal acts.
If we are only attacking Afghanistan out of revenge, wouldn't it be logical to solve a few problems there as well. It is well within our power to set up a more free government in Afghanistan, so why don't we. It would help our international image, and might help prevent future terrorism (along the lines of "the US attacks countries out of revenge. Let's bomb them").

quote: Oh and Communists never have facts.

Completely untrue insults do not add to your argument, but only detract from it.

	15-11-2001 04:42									#81
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Argue what you want about what I say... it appears things gone my way. I predicted the Northern Alliance to take over the country and allow a broad-based government to be installed, they apparently allow men to shave their beards, women to show their faces, get an education and hold office (that was a fact during their rule from 1992-1996), and allow children to fly kites and listen music is much better than the Taliban. It just some of the Commanders are brainless. If you even think that Northern Alliance (Respectively the United Front now) is as bad as the Taliban, you are dreadfully wrong.

	15-11-2001 04:49									#82
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I predict the sun will set this evening. Well, well, looks like things are going my way, eh?...

The Northern Alliance isn't as bad as the Taliban, but in the broad scale of things, they're damn close.

"The US doesn't support terrorism that doesn't benefit itself, but now they don't even support terrorism that benefits the US."

So what you're saying is that the US *DID* support terrorism that benefitted itself, but now it supports no terrorism? Please give an example, sir, of an organization we have stopped supporting following September 11.

	15-11-2001 04:54									#83
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The true test will come if we do allow the NA to take over without US/UN/Coalition advisement. If they don't set up a dictatorship i will be very surprised.

	15-11-2001 04:54									#84
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quote: Originally posted by rev The Northern Alliance isn't as bad as the Taliban, but in the broad scale of things, they're damn close.

So the Northern Alliance executes men for shaving their beards or listening to music or watching tv? Do they execute women for putting make-up on or showing their faces? They are not within six feet of the Taliban.

Rev, I am asking nicely that you remove that quote I said in your sig.

	15-11-2001 04:59									#85
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The NA will execute people for different reasons. It will probably be better than the Taliban, but wouldn't it be better to have a nondictatorship? My point is that even if the Taliban is worse than the NA, there are still much better governments possible than the NA, and we would do well trying to set up a more democratic society in Afghanistan.

	15-11-2001 04:59									#86
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No, but they execute people who happen to be related to those who had any inkling of support for the Taliban.

But back to my original question: "So what you're saying is that the US *DID* support terrorism that benefitted itself, but now it supports no terrorism? Please give an example, sir, of an organization we have stopped supporting following September 11."

"Rev, I am asking nicely that you remove that quote I said in your sig."

Thanks, but no thanks. I found it to be humorous. Don't say things you don't want to be quoted on in the future and this sort of thing won't happen.

	15-11-2001 05:03									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Admiral The NA will execute people for different reasons. It will probably be better than the Taliban, but wouldn't it be better to have a nondictatorship? My point is that even if the Taliban is worse than the NA, there are still much better governments possible than the NA, and we would do well trying to set up a more democratic society in Afghanistan.

A democratic society in Afghanistan? Is that an oxymoron... even I thought about the difficulties of setting up such a government.

Is it even remotely possible?

Two people can rule Afghanistan in one piece:

Former King Zahir Shah
or Former President Rabbani

I am putting my bets that both can rule together, since one is representing the Northern Alliance and the former King is Pashtun. Maybe they could get together and make a stable country (which might have to be somewhat dictorial) so progress can be made in building a economic base virtually from scratch. The first government cannot be democratic since there are no institutions or structure to support it.

	15-11-2001 05:05									#88
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quote: Originally posted by rev But back to my original question: "So what you're saying is that the US *DID* support terrorism that benefitted itself, but now it supports no terrorism? Please give an example, sir, of an organization we have stopped supporting following September 11."

I don't know if they did or not, it was just that I was joking around a bit with words. Sorry, I will add smilies next time.

	15-11-2001 05:09									#89
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Bull. You were just caught in your own baseless rhetoric and don't want to admit it.

	15-11-2001 05:10									#90
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quote: Originally posted by rev Bull. You were just caught in your own baseless rhetoric and don't want to admit it.

Bullshit.

If you are so sure about everything, prove it. Prove that I was.



You can't!