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Elucidus
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Oh yeah, just had the computer agree to give me everything it had, in exchange for peace. 37 Gold, maps, and all of its remaining cities (two) except its capitol of course. Didn't think it would work, but I guess for survival.
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Harlan
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Berkeley, CA, USA
Aug 2005
time: 21:16
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Korn,
Thanks for the explanation - I didn't realize that was the only way to take a unit out of the build queue. That's wierd! We need the ordinary obsoletion by techs reintroduced to the game.
By the way,
I wrote this earlier today in another thread - hope you want to include some of these ideas:
Hi,
I've played Civ3 a whopping one time, but already there are some things I'd like to see changed. Since I'm too lazy to make a mod myself, I'm hoping someone else will like these ideas, and want to incorporate them.
1. I see the need for two new strategic resources. First is Tin. Why Tin, you ask? In the same way that Saltpeter is the limiting feature in the making of gunpowder, tin was the limiting factor in the making of bronze. In history people traded far and wide to get tin - for instance mediterranean powers going thousands of miles into uncivilized lands to trade with tribal people in southern England for tin. Tin would be very common since one doesn't want to trip up civs too much early. It would be needed for some bronze age units.
2. Second needed strategic resource: Timber. In ancient times, not all civs could build navies - only civs with access to very long and broad timber could build ships. Compare for instance Phoenicia which became a huge naval power because of their forests, and Egypt, which had to hire out mercanaries for virtually all their naval needs cos they had no forests at all. All ships up to Ironclad would need this.
3. Luxury resources should occasionally come later with certain technologies, and should disappear over time even more than strategic resources do. Think about it. People's tastes in luxuries changed greatly over time. Silks were the end all be all luxury for a while in ancient times, but now are no big deal. Spices used to be incredibly important to keep food from rotting on long voyages, but died out in importance with refrigeration and so forth. There should be some modern luxuries in the game as the old ones die out - tobacco, opium, coffee, exotic fruits, and so forth.
What would be the impact on gameplay? You'd have to be on your toes more to keep your civ happy. The trade situation would be more fluid.
4. Naval units need to move faster!
5. After playing my first game with numerous elite units involved in battles and not a single leader created, I seriously think the odds of leader creation need to be reduced (even without any wonder help) from about 1/16 to 1/12.
6. A cool thing would be to have more wonders and small wonders, but use the government type limitation much, much more often. Just about every wonder could only be built by one or another type of government. Then you could have identical or very similar wonders for different government types. For instance, a modern happiness wonder for a communist government would be different than the one built by democracies or fascists.
One nice thing about this is there would be less competition for the same wonder. In the game I played, there was far too much of this. All civs were close in the tech race, so when a tech with a new wonder was discovered, it would be just about the only one available, and every civ would go for it. To compensate this lack of competition, make wonders more expensive so you really need to want it to get it, or more expiration limits.
This would make the choosing of a government type much more of an important type. It also would promote more on the fly decision making. Rather than always follow the same government path, it would be more effective to take the path less chosen. All the other civs are Republics but no one is Communist? Go Communist and get all the wonders for yourself.
7. The improvements making naval and air units veterans should be decoupled from the Harbor and Airport improvements. These are useful enough without creating veteran status. These should be separate improvements - perhaps Naval Academy or Flight School off the top of my head.
8. More bonus resources - six types is so weak.
More ideas later.
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Pyrodrew
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quote:
Originally posted by Elucidus
Korn,
I agree with you to a point.
Swordsmen, Longbowmen, and Cavalry, I think, should upgrade to Riflemen in my opinion. As it is merely arming them with different weapons. Frigates and ironclads, however, should not be able to upgrade. I thought about this, and I think there should very well be a way to obsolete these units, but since there isn't I understand your reasoning.
I just couldn't rationalize it and therefore decided to take that out. |
I strongly agree with this too. And it brings up a good question. At what point does the production represent more of the weapon/ship/vehicle than the training of the unit?
In my opinion...
Swordsmen & Longbowmen should upgrade to Riflemen.
Cavalry should not be changed into Riflemen since it has a higher attack than Riflemen!
Cavalry shouldn't upgrade to Tanks & Ironclads shouldn't be able to upgrade to Destroyers because the production cost is significantly higher than a mere rifle. $20 is too cheap for a new tank or new destroyer.
Although I understand Korn changing his game if he wants.
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Yaga
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First, I agree with the above that Cav *shouldn't* upgrade to tanks - taking a bunch of guys who're used to riding on horseback and tossing them into metal contraptions isn't nec. going to work...
I for one feel that Cav should, in the future, upgrade to Air Cav. This is, afterall, what America did in the Vietnam Era. Until then, I'll keep my horsies.
--
Second, Re: Fascism. I agree with the substance, if not the sardonic tone of the long post above. Fascism was a viable mid-industrial age government, which many countries toyed with post-Monarchy. While by no means praising the system, I'll point out that rascism is not a de facto quality of Fascism, though do agree that it is often a part of the Nationalistic Chauvinism:
Fas·cism (noun)
A system of government marked by centralization of authority
under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls,
suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship,
and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
I'll also hop on my soapbox for a moment, and point out that many modern governments also have a number of 'fascist' qualities, especially in terms of 'centralized authority' and 'strict socioechonomic controls.' If you disagree, just look around to "democratic" countries today where, in the grips of fear of Terrorism, there's talk of National ID cards, ("Your papers, please") the widening police powers of the FBI (over 1000 foreign nationals and Americans of middle eastern descent have been detained since 9/11/01, many without being charged for anything, many held w/o bail, and some have not even had their names released, their lawyers receving gag orders to not discuss *anything* about their case, including their names or where they are held. Also, the rules on wiretaps have been changed such that they no longer need as much evidence to obtain a wiretap, nor do they need to inform someone that they're being wiretapped until 90 days *after* they *stop* wiretapping) and the powers of the police in the UK (Where Sys Admins may be federalized, and the police have the power to tap any computer and/or internet service account, and it's illegal for the ISP to tell the person that every bit of information is being collected...) [Sorry, I'll get off my soapbox now...send flames to /dev/null, please]
--
Third, and most importantly, I wanted to give props to Monkspider: I'm enjoying much your mod immensely, and have some suggestions for the next iteration (playing 1.32 presently)
- Tone down the culture from Sgt. Pepper's. 25 seems a little high. Love the Beatles, but there's no way they're twice the cultural influence of Shakespeare.
- The Dino Park seems a little too powerful; I'd remove the science portion.
- Make Radio Artillery marginally more powerful than normal Artillery
- Change "Universal Equality" to some other name; it's too similar to "Universal Sufferage," IMHO, even though I can't think of a better one...
- Change Universal Sufferage to a Small Wonder, built only by representative gov'ts, (Republic and Democracy)
- Any way to have an exponential increase in naval movement in Industial and then again in Modern? Considering that Railroads give you unlimited movement per turn, it seems silly that you can move a unit from one end of a coastline to another in one turn, yet is can take four or five turns to move a destroyer a similar distance. Consider that it took months to cross the Atlantic in Galleons, a few weeks in WWII, and now can be done in a week or two. Consider too that 5-7 knots knots was excellent speed for a sailing ship, while 10-15 is 'typical' of ships from WWII, and modern vessels can easily maintain speeds in the 20s. Some can go into the low 30s if they push it for short periods of time.
- I'd remove Inf's Worker abilities, as the AI isn't using them. Perhaps have, with Motorized Transportation or Replaceable Parts, a Civ II "Engineer" style worker which has a movement of 2 that Workers can Upgrade to?
- The Oil resource appearing on coastal tiles is a little problematic, and frustrating; I've had games where at least half the oil resources are unavailable for trade. Until the game itself changes to allow trade access to those resources, I would recomend reverting this to the previous settings.
- I'd love to see more Small and Gov't wonders, perhaps with lesser effects:
: Las Vegas (increase luxuries and happiness)
: Disney Wold (ditto)
: The Internet (modern day Great Library available after 5 Research Centers are built - could replace "Universal Equality")
: Silicon Valley (A WallStreet for Scientific and Commerce civs, available after The Internet is Built)
: Make SETI a trigger for Expansionist Civs (after all, space *is* the final fontier  )
: World Trade Organizaion (increases taxes, Commercial and Expansionist, no industry bonus, no culture, no happiness)
: Internal Revenue Service / Inland Revenue Service (Increases effectiveness of Tax Collectors by +1 or +2)
: Nobel Prize (Increases effectivenes of Scientists by +1 or +2; gives them a greater impetus for research)
: War Memorial (Can be built under same circumstances as Military Acadamy; decreases War Weariness; can be built during Mobilization)
: Concentration Camp (Facist Gov't only - increases production and increases *un*happiness, and decreases world opinion. Can be built suring Mobilization [oh, let the flame war begin...])
: Make Forbidden Palace Despotism and Monarchy only (Doesn't seem to have much effect on corruption for China these days, and remember that the UK is a Constitutional Monarchy...)
: Change Statue of Liberty to Republic and Democracy, increase cost, lessen War Weariness effect, decrease corruption as Forbidden Palace, increase International Opinion [people seem to forget that America is a Republic, and not a Democracy, but oh well])
: Politburo (Communism Only, same effect as Forbidden Palace)
- Some city improvements I'd love to see, though I admit I'm unclear if they can be added to the game. These are all *weaker* versions of existing improvments, and are aimed primarily at being built overseas and/or far from the main empire: Think of the things first built in the Old West.)
: Town Sherrif (*significantly* reduces corruption, regardless of distance, costs 1/2 or 1/3 of Courthouse, expires a la City Walls at a city size of 4(if possible, otherwise tweak a little for expiry at 7) - can be built with Republic
: Trading Post (Similarly expires a la City Walls at 7, 1/2 the cost and 1/2 the effectivness as Marketplace, available with Navigation)
: One Room Schoolhouse (again, 1/2 cost, 1/2 effectivness of Library, available with Education, expires at 7)
: Cavalry Outpost (1/2 cost of Barracks, same function, expires at 7)
Having thought about it and checked the CIA World Fact Book ( http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/ ) "Constitutional Monarchy" seems to be one of the most popular forms of govn't around. Anyone interested in adding it to their Mod?
Also, FYI the Readme says "-extract pepper, segart, reich, equality, and statue to C:\Program Files\Infogrames Interactive\Civilization III\Art\Wonder Splash" - "stegart" is mis-spelled, and you forgot to include the statue.pcx in that list 
Thanks again for the great Mod, sorry to mix so much politics into my post,
Yaga
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Harlan
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Berkeley, CA, USA
Aug 2005
time: 21:16
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A couple of suggestions:
-Universal Equality- Gain any two advances owned by any other governemnt, limited only to
Communism. Useful to gain ground on the scientifically advanced Democratic nations. Lasts until discovery of space flight.
I don't like the name. Too similar to Universal Sufferage. What about Kremlin, or KGB? Both those would tie in better with the idea of getting techs from other civs.
-Reichstag- Allows Fascist governments to build armies in ANY city.
This gives the Fascist government that some complained of being
too weak a considerable advantage.
But can't you already get the Small Wonder that does this?
---There are two new Modern-Age Wonders, due to complaints of there being too few in that
period
-Dinosaur Park-Available with Genetics, this wonder increases tax, science, and luxory output
by 50%
-Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Heart's Club Band- Available with Ecology, This wonder simply produces 25 culture a turn.
I'm the world's biggest fan of the Beatles, and that album in particular. It was the first album I owed as a kid. But it seems very strange as a wonder, and stranger still to be connected to Ecology. For one of the above, at least, how about Hollywood? Talk about having a huge effect on culture in the modern age - that wins over anything else hands down.
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Elucidus
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Korn,
If you're right, then you're right. I don't care enough to look it up. Not right now, anyway. It just doesn't sound right to me.
BTW, any historical references to anyone upgrading frigates to ironclads, or ironclads to destroyers?
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korn469
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Poetic Justic
Apr 1999
time: 00:16
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quote:
BTW, any historical references to anyone upgrading frigates to ironclads, or ironclads to destroyers? |
Elucidus
how about this one
quote:
In an attempt to reduce the North's great naval advantage, Confederate engineers converted a scuttled Union frigate, the U.S.S. Merrimac, into an iron-sided vessel rechristened the C.S.S. Virginia. On March 9, in the first naval engagement between ironclad ships, the Monitor fought the Virginia to a draw, but not before the Virginia had sunk two wooden Union warships off Norfolk, Virginia |
you can find out more information about it here
http://americancivilwar.com/monitor.html
as for ironclads to destroyers, i can't think of one off the top of my head
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ham50
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I can't get this to work. I put all the files where they are supposed to go but there is nothing different happening in the game, I picked an expansonist civ and the squatter did not show up.
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Oncle Boris
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Once in a brown moon
Aug 2001
time: 00:16
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--I can surely tell you, we cannot build roads, clear junges or forests.--
Well, the Romans did it, so the idea is not that bad...
--In reality, this is untrue. Facist Italy and Nazi Germany suffered rampant corruption, horrible inefficiency and massive economic problems. The massive military build-up and wars were the only things the leaders could do to galvanize industry and keep the countries afloat. --
I would have to disagree on that one. Every government suffers rampant corruption. Mind you, there are more company HQ in Bahamas than there are inhabitants... and this is not gold stolen by the nazis. The inclusion of Fascism in Civ is an excellent idea - along with balancing democracy and communism. Yeah, Stalin killed thousands of citizens, and half-fed his population... but he DID produce an helluva tanks and planes, and actually beat the Germans.
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Jahi
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Austin, Texas
Oct 2001
time: 23:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Harlan
A couple of suggestions:
---There are two new Modern-Age Wonders, due to complaints of there being too few in that
period
-Dinosaur Park-Available with Genetics, this wonder increases tax, science, and luxory output
by 50%
-Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Heart's Club Band- Available with Ecology, This wonder simply produces 25 culture a turn.
I'm the world's biggest fan of the Beatles, and that album in particular. It was the first album I owed as a kid. But it seems very strange as a wonder, and stranger still to be connected to Ecology. For one of the above, at least, how about Hollywood? Talk about having a huge effect on culture in the modern age - that wins over anything else hands down. |
hi monkspider,
so I’ve been thinking about your arguments on your choice of the two modern age wonders. I saw your argument for keeping -Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Heart's Club Band- but I didn't see an argument against the -Dinosaur Park- (I might have just missed it)
now I have a new argument against -Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Heart's Club Band- (possibly replace it with Hollywood) -and I want to see what you think about it. you stated (I forgot the exact #) that a large % of most music in this century had its roots in this. I wont disagree to that statement but I’d like to add that this may be true in the western world.. and that west is not the majority of the world. I don’t think the Beatles are that well known in India but I know Hollywood is known everywhere. or they may be known but just aren't that important. (which I personally believe they aren't).
plus, it just strikes me as wrong.. everyone knows the pyramids of Egypt, but not everyone knows the Beatles (hard to believe to some native English speakers, I know)
now, on to the -Dinosaur Park-. my argument hasn't changed any, but I just missed your response. Civ 3 has made a clear distinction between future techs and ones we have today. even fusion power was removed (it was in civ 2) because we don’t have it today. the -Dinosaur Park- seems to be very far fetched, why not just offer a trip to mars instead? it seems more likely than cloned dinosaurs. the bonuses it offers are also way to powerful, now if it was just one city it would still be very powerful but a little more reasonable.
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solaeric
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I took interest in the discussion ealier on this topic regarding the intelligence of the Civ3 AI. It was questioned whether the AI civilization would recognize changes in a unit or wonder's abilities and adjust its strategy. For instance, if Shakespeare's Theater was modified to, in addition to its cultural benefits, increase the movement rates of ships by one point, would the AI recognize this improvement before opting to build it. Say, for instance, that the AI civilization required faster ship travel, would it even consider the new Shakespeare's Theater as a solution?
This issue was touched lightly earler in this thread, but I didn't see an answer; my apologies if this subject has been concluded. If not, I have an idea that might answer this question. Someone out there who has the time to sit and collect data needs to take a non-combat (a.k.a. crappy) unit, like the scout, and jack up his combat abilities to a super-level, like 10/10/10. Then, all he needs to do is see if the AI (preferably a non-expansionist AI, but it really doesn't matter) produces a higher than otherwise normal number of these units. If the AI civilization does produce many of these units, and uses them for warfare, then we can assume that the AI evaluates the skills and abilities of the units and wonders at the time of actual game-play and adjusts its strategy.
-Solaeric
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ElitePersian
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Vancouver, BC
Nov 2000
time: 05:16
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quote:
Originally posted by solaeric
I took interest in the discussion ealier on this topic regarding the intelligence of the Civ3 AI. It was questioned whether the AI civilization would recognize changes in a unit or wonder's abilities and adjust its strategy. For instance, if Shakespeare's Theater was modified to, in addition to its cultural benefits, increase the movement rates of ships by one point, would the AI recognize this improvement before opting to build it. Say, for instance, that the AI civilization required faster ship travel, would it even consider the new Shakespeare's Theater as a solution?
This issue was touched lightly earler in this thread, but I didn't see an answer; my apologies if this subject has been concluded. If not, I have an idea that might answer this question. Someone out there who has the time to sit and collect data needs to take a non-combat (a.k.a. crappy) unit, like the scout, and jack up his combat abilities to a super-level, like 10/10/10. Then, all he needs to do is see if the AI (preferably a non-expansionist AI, but it really doesn't matter) produces a higher than otherwise normal number of these units. If the AI civilization does produce many of these units, and uses them for warfare, then we can assume that the AI evaluates the skills and abilities of the units and wonders at the time of actual game-play and adjusts its strategy.
-Solaeric |
I asked monkspider this exact question - and obviously, if the AI doesnt recognize these changes well enough, then there's no point making mods. I was told that Soren Johnson said in his interview that the AI will be able to take advantage of mods, that it has been programmed to. Now to what extend we dont know, only playtesting will tell. Well im not gonna download any mods until it is totally confirmed that the AI benefits from mods, and until i play a little more without mods to get a teste of how balanced the game is.
but monkspider has done a really good job with this mod and it seems like ppl's opinion that this mod really does balance the game more.
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Harlan
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Berkeley, CA, USA
Aug 2005
time: 21:16
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Bad news:
I've been using your mod, and just ran into a very nasty bug. Everything is going fine, until a certain turn, and then I get a "please wait" message while the AI are doing their turns. The game waits forever at this point until I'm forced to quit.
This has now happened to me in two separate games, both at approximately the same time in the mid-Ancient age. I have a save game from 1830 BC as the Bablyonians you might want to try out - the bug should appear as the turn changes.
It hadn't happened to me before I used your mod. Also, the first time I played your mod, I got fairly far. I wasn't doing well though, so I started far back in history in the same world. But when I got to about 1500 BC, the game hung.
Since this has happened to me twice and I can't figure out how to get past it, I may have to uninstall your mod.
Oh, by the way, I'm also getting an error in the scientific screen occasionally. Sometimes 3 citizen heads appear there, scattered about the screen.
My computer:
AMD Athlon 1.4 GHz
261 RAM
Windows 2000 Pro
Last edited by Harlan on 21-11-2001 at 00:46
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larchy
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[bug]
I dled and started playing v1.32, but instantly noticed a bit of a prob - Played as the Greeks and in the build menu right from the beginning are Sgt Peppers whatsit-doo-dah and Universal Equality available to build, and requiring 0 resources so they complete in 1 turn. I'm running 1Ghz Athlon, 256mb Ram, Prophet2 MX 32mb, Windows XP Pro.
[/bug]
Btw I ain't as serious about all this as some of you lot obviously are, but this debate about unit upgrading and not being able to upgrade wooden ships to metal ones... (at the risk of being flamed) itsagameitsagameitsagame etc. Now ok, I see your point and I ain't suggesting that warriors should be allowed to upgrade to laser-space-destroyers or whatever, but it does seem to make sense that your obsolete naval units should be allowed to upgrade to newer ones. The game should be fun first, realistic second imho.
The point about not allowing certain units to upgrade is a good one tho... if you aren't allowed to upgrade a particularly powerful unit it adds a bit of a dilemma over whether to build a whole host of them or not, makes the player think a bit more long term.
justmytwocents.
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monkspider
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banned
Aug 2001
time: 23:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Jahi
hi monkspider,
so I’ve been thinking about your arguments on your choice of the two modern age wonders. I saw your argument for keeping -Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Heart's Club Band- but I didn't see an argument against the -Dinosaur Park- (I might have just missed it)
now I have a new argument against -Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Heart's Club Band- (possibly replace it with Hollywood) -and I want to see what you think about it. you stated (I forgot the exact #) that a large % of most music in this century had its roots in this. I wont disagree to that statement but I’d like to add that this may be true in the western world.. and that west is not the majority of the world. I don’t think the Beatles are that well known in India but I know Hollywood is known everywhere. or they may be known but just aren't that important. (which I personally believe they aren't).
plus, it just strikes me as wrong.. everyone knows the pyramids of Egypt, but not everyone knows the Beatles (hard to believe to some native English speakers, I know)
now, on to the -Dinosaur Park-. my argument hasn't changed any, but I just missed your response. Civ 3 has made a clear distinction between future techs and ones we have today. even fusion power was removed (it was in civ 2) because we don’t have it today. the -Dinosaur Park- seems to be very far fetched, why not just offer a trip to mars instead? it seems more likely than cloned dinosaurs. the bonuses it offers are also way to powerful, now if it was just one city it would still be very powerful but a little more reasonable. |
Hey Jahi, I really can't argue with your statement too much on the beatles. All I can say is that people have never heard of J.S Bach or Leonardo Da Vinci either. Although I probably will end up changing it to Hollywood because of public opinion.
Dinosaur Park isn't as far-fetched as you may believe, there are active campaigns these days to ressurect a number of extinct animals, including the Mammoth, Quagga, Blue Buck Antelope, and even the Dodo! And actually Dino Park only does affect one city, I appologize if I made a typo and said it affects all, that *WOULD* be too powerful I agree. We don't have a Cure for Cancer yet, but I bet that at least the potential for Cure for Cancer and Dino Park to become a reality will exist in the very near future.
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19-11-2001 10:25
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