25-11-2001 10:11									#31
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Sparky I made a version 1.01 of your map. If you're interested, I removed horses from the Americas, slightly refined the Great Lakes and Britain (I mean very slightly!), put more oil in Venezuela, and added starting locations for all the Civs I have always thought should be in (namely, the Turks, Mongols, Spanish, Arabs, Vikings, and Pheonicians).

Removed the horses from America? What about the wild horses at Chincateague, VA? Didn't everybody learn about that in elementary school?

	26-11-2001 10:00									#32
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Version 2.2 is here. See the first post for a summary.

	26-11-2001 11:39									#33
	Inflate your Upload Space

Still some mistakes:
1) at Ankara transit between Black Sea and Middle Sea must be possible by ship 150,60
2) 126,42 is there a ship transit possible at Channel? I didn't test it but it looks that is isn't possible.
3) Spain and France in history had 95% forest
4) 131,43 must be a coal recource (one of biggest brown coal recource of world there is) (France + Germany do have much more coal than England) + 130,46 black coal
5) 138,42 also big browncoal recource is, and beside that also an uranium recource

6) and again and again: Salpeter wasn't a strategic recource for Gun Powder, but as the game this bug has and you can reserarch until atom and never get better units than sword and bow if you don't have salpeter, you have to balance it by giving one salpeter to every starting point.
ALL must have that recource if they have researched the tech for gun powder, all other will make the game unbalanced.

Last edited by Dreifels on 26-11-2001 at 12:27

	26-11-2001 12:33									#34
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by CharlotteCivver Removed the horses from America? What about the wild horses at Chincateague, VA? Didn't everybody learn about that in elementary school?

ALL horses being in America had come from the European in early time. (the wild ones were run away horses and those coming after then)
In early history the american continent didn't have any horse.

The other question is - and I believe it will be right if america has horses, too - that such biologic recources should be not restricted to their early original point for ever. The game gives no way to multiplicate such recourcec which I have to trade only once.

	26-11-2001 20:11									#35
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Again, great job. Any changes from here on out would be pretty minor. I like how you released two versions in the download, for those who want an easier game or more realisic terrain. I also agree with you about the Inca Empire -- I mean, come on! you don't omit an entire continent that had an advanced civilization.

	26-11-2001 21:23									#36
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

This map is magnificent!

The only thing I'd like would be a more woody one, I think it was mentioned earlier, this would delay the inevitable dominance of North America and Europe for their ressources. Also I think Canada is even today forest covered and not a plain.

	27-11-2001 04:49									#37
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Thanks for all the replies and suggestions. Driefels I'll look at resources in Germany. And maybe a third map with more forest in North America, Europe and China.

Bye the way I live in Canada. It is mostly forest, and apart from the great plains the rockies the developed east and northern tundra, it is on my map as well.

All this work and someone has to go and post resource maps that tempt me to redo it all.

Driefels as to your questions:

1. I go back and forth on whether I should put in the Bosphorus by Istanbul. I wish they retained the old system where you could pass by land and sea.

2. You can pass through the English Channel. The Grassland just makes it look funny.

3., 4 and 5, I'll look at changing.

6. I understand you can find it almost anywhere. But if it's supposed to be strategic, at least in the game itself, I've limited it to locations I found in an Encyclopedia. Hopefully the lack of Salt Peter will encourage trade and/or war.

Anymore votes re location of horses (historically old world) and rubber (historically new world)?

Sparky, I was also tempted to replace the Zulus with the Songhai/Mali empire. Or Maybe Ethiopia.

	27-11-2001 08:23									#38
	Remove this text

Interesting you mentioned the songai and ethiopia. I had already put in starting locations for the ghana/mali/songai on west Africa, and for the Ethiopians as well. Honestly, I think Sid should have picked one of those empires instead of the Zulus waaay back in the days of Civ1. I'm debating whether to add the Conganese or keep them as a series of goodie huts.

I also added starting locations for the Arabs, Turks (who were actually supposed to be in Civ 1 but got cut at the last minute!), Mongols, Phoenicians, and Spanish.

I've often wondered whether to include the Dutch (but darn it, their period of dominance was really only the 17th century) and the Austrians (although they're practically just a large faction of the Germans. The Germans have never been unified until recently.) The Hebrews are tempting, too.

	27-11-2001 10:36									#39
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Maybe you could rename saltpeter to sulfur and find out where that can be found to have a strategic resource for gunpowder. Saltpeter is easy to produce, but I think sulfur needs to be mined, and is also an ingredient for primitive gunpowder.

	29-11-2001 00:17									#40
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Selanne 6. I understand you can find it almost anywhere. But if it's supposed to be strategic, at least in the game itself, I've limited it to locations I found in an Encyclopedia. Hopefully the lack of Salt Peter will encourage trade and/or war. Anymore votes re location of horses (historically old world) and rubber (historically new world)?

You have to watch that you don't generate a general problem of unbalanced games with the map.

- If you restrict Salpeter you may research up to nuclear weapons but never get more than sword. Such the game makes stupid and frustrates a lot.
- Rubber isn't available in cold climate
- Horses are alt last not a real recource as you have to trade it 1* only and then you have your own. But such isn't possible in the game. So you can't restrict the places for horses to those 2 areas where they are coming from (means America never gets a horse)
- In reality coal was the surrogate for oil in the 1st world war. As the game doesn't allow to set offshore oil recources you should place some oil positions at the coast there, i.e. England, Norway, Venezuela.
- Make 2 different maps, one similar to 5000 BC and one similar to today, as the terrain had changed very much within 800 AC and 1700 AC (forest was needed for lot of ships, i.e. Spain, England, France, Italy, Greek, Turkey, Russia, so they today have less forest than as that early time.

	29-11-2001 05:10									#41
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Thanks for the info Dreifels.

As for Saltpeter, I guess like in the games I have played, you have to conquer land with saltpeter, if you don't have it and can't trade for it. First game I played (random map) I didn't have access to horses, oil or saltpeter. I had to go "acquire" it all. I find that fun. However I am considering redistribution. I'll see how others feel. Or as Badzt Maru suggested I could rename the resource. On a side note Aluminum is available almost everywhere in the world as well.

Scotland, Norway and Venezuela all have oil on my maps (or should unless they got erased somehow).

I am considering a third version with heavier forest cover.

Sparky has suggested extra starting points. Does anyone else like this idea?

Darryl

	29-11-2001 21:50									#42
	tech-three Get a bigger avatar today!

Has anyone discovered a patch for the tech-tree?
I know that any change made to the 'rules' of the game spoils the tech-tree, thus making selanne's map unplayable.

	30-11-2001 05:20									#43
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I don't know why you say "unplayable". It's playable, you just can't access the tech tree properly. Frankly I don't consider this a handi-cap.

	30-11-2001 18:53									#44
	Tired of ads?

Your map is just WONDERFUL!

But I would suggest some minor corrections:
Finland and Baltic are wet grasslands, originally forests allover. Finland has to have furs, the whole finnish economy depended on furs and timber around 3000 BC-1500 AD.

great work!

	30-11-2001 21:09									#45
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

selanne, i meant that there is no way to control technological advance in any direction we please, which makes the game, not the map, unplayable.
That was why I asked if there was any known patch for this problem.
There is no reason not to appreciate your contribution.

	01-12-2001 05:54									#46
	Tired of ads?

Thanks for the explanation Ismail. Sorry about th misunderstanding.

Lauretius, If Finland gets furs, who should I take them from. By the way I assume you might know where I took my name from?

	01-12-2001 07:52									#47
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Selanne, excellant, excellant work. Thank you for doing this and spending your valuable time putting up with the whinging from people who are never happy*, and yet are too damn lazy to do their own map.

Remember, regardless of what happens, this is your map and it must have your feel.

It looks very, very nice.

I've just finished a full game on Satya's, I'll try yours next and see how she fits

* Disclaimer: Just one person who has had plenty to say in this thread, but nothing complimentary to anyone. :tsk:

	01-12-2001 16:16									#48
	tech Remove this text

Tech rate doesn't seem to work with this map. No matter what I do or on what level I play I get behind in science and eventually end up as a backwards civilization. Could you please fix that.
Great work though, clearly the best map out there, if only...

	01-12-2001 19:16									#49
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Selanne Lauretius, If Finland gets furs, who should I take them from. By the way I assume you might know where I took my name from?

Uh, does Sweden have any extra furs?
You know I first thought you're a finnish guy living in Winnipeg. Later I realized it was the winnipeg jets(?) where he first played in the NHL. Actually, between 1992-94 almost everyone here had some Jets franchise on them eg.caps,bags,skicaps,gloves..
Teeeeemu Selaaaaaaeennneeeeeee!

	01-12-2001 20:07									#50
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

couldn't resist...

Do you know what's the only thing that's better in Sweden than in Finland?
The Sweden has a better neightbour country

	01-12-2001 20:40									#51
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Sounds like the Swedes and the Finns have a bit of a competitive spirit between them? Yes you're correct I'm a big Teemu Selanne fan. I remember the glory days well. But now Winnipeg's pro-hockey team has moved to Arizona, and Teemu is playing in San Jose.

Tech rate is set at 400. I haven't had a problem but then I've only played this map at level 2. Earlier maps had a lower tech rate, are you sure you have the current one?

I'll look at making the Baltics and Finland more forested. They were left with some grassland to allow cities like Riga and Helsinki a place to grow.

I'm also looking at making a smaller map as one this large does slow down later in the game with 16 players.

	01-12-2001 20:53									#52
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Selanne I'll look at making the Baltics and Finland more forested. They were left with some grassland to allow cities like Riga and Helsinki a place to grow.

But does Finland have furs!? I mean it's very important that Finland has furs

	01-12-2001 22:46									#53
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Selanne Tech rate is set at 400. I haven't had a problem but then I've only played this map at level 2. Earlier maps had a lower tech rate, are you sure you have the current one? .

I do have the current one. Problem is, when tech rate is at 400 the enemies seem to get advances a lot faster, while I'm stuck in africa with 40 cities and 90% science rate, yet I get advances in 24-32 turns and am backwards civ. With tech rate 200 all are pretty even and actually can get advances at as low as in 10 turns. There's something wrong there...

	02-12-2001 02:01									#54
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Just to be clear: Does raising the tech rate only help the AI or the player as well? I was under the impression it did both, and the larger the map the higher the tech rate that was needed.

What government are you in? DO you have city governors focussing on production and ignoring city squares that would help science? I know early in all games I've played there's a period when discoveries always seem to take 24-32 turns.

I'll see about adding furs to Finland the next time I modify the map. I want to wait and see if the tech rate needs to be fiddled with.

	02-12-2001 16:14									#55
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Selanne Just to be clear: Does raising the tech rate only help the AI or the player as well? I was under the impression it did both, and the larger the map the higher the tech rate that was needed. What government are you in? DO you have city governors focussing on production and ignoring city squares that would help science? I know early in all games I've played there's a period when discoveries always seem to take 24-32 turns. I'll see about adding furs to Finland the next time I modify the map. I want to wait and see if the tech rate needs to be fiddled with.

I have no idea. I haven't played for awfully long but at 600 AD people are still in the ancient age and I'm at about 3rd to last in tech with 90% science rate(200 tech rate). At the moment my government is despotism, could that be the reason?
If I use tech rate 400 then it looks as if the enemies get advances a lot faster than I do. They enter middle age at 200 ad or so while I have barely researched 6 advances.
I don't use governors except for mood.

It's strange... I don't know which to use 200 or 400, both seem to have side effects.. hopefully you can help us.

Also when Hussein of Iraq invaded Kuwait, it was said he had control of over 70% of world's oil. So I believe that the oil should be taken from United Kingdom and be moved to Iraq/Kuwait.
I also think that USA has too much oil(3) and one of them should be moved to Russia. What do the others think?

	02-12-2001 20:13									#56
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I have now tested all tech rates from 150 to 500(150,160 and so on..) and I believe 340 is by far the best of them all.
Somehow at 340 everything seems to be in balance. However if you raise the tech rate to 400 to get advances faster, it backfires. It doesn't handle techs as it should and could end being as bad as at 150. My suggestion is to change the tech rate to 340.
With it the map absolutely rocks. I played it with every level except chieftain and deity.

	03-12-2001 17:28									#57
	Map Scale Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Okay guys,
I scaled the map stats by every 5X5.
Here are the stats:
Size: 256 X 256
Num. of Civs: 16
Dist. Between Civs: 27
Opt. Num of Cities: 47
Tech Rate: 275

I hope this helps. The chart was easy to do. Everything scaled perfectly.

Flash

	04-12-2001 20:40									#58
	Put an end to popups!

Thanks for posting that Junnila, the map was to good not to use but I was lagging behind the other civs as the game progressed. Puttung the tech rate at 340 has really helped me out.

Cheers.

	06-12-2001 04:52									#59
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I wonder why 340 seems to work? Anyone else tried this? I'm having no problem with tech, but then I'm only playing on level 2.

Hoping to add an update with expanded city lists and a changed tech rate soon. Mostly working on the 180x180 map right now.

	06-12-2001 07:13									#60
	Civ3Breed file Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

For those who are too lazy to check the coordinates for all 16 civs, here's the file to use with civ3breed and the worldmap v 2.2. I don't know exactly how civ3breed works, so it may need changing "Iroquois" to "Inca" to actually work. When I used this I just reset the map to the default rules - I'll do this until I get the patch and the tech tree bug is fixed

http://www.multimania.com/narmox/civ3/real22.crb

hm, on 2nd thought.. I just noticed Iroquois was spelled Iroquios, and they were in the right place. So it might not require tweaking after all...