22-02-2002 04:39									#361
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by korn469 hehe i had to reload a couple of time because i wasn't trying too hard

I know.

quote: just remember the two save dates ok?

Just look at the attachment.

quote: anyways i'm going to do somemore play testing on that map, but i have found out a couple things one of them is that drafting a unit that requires population only uses 1 pop instead of 2 so this needs balancing

Too bad. At the moment, I don't have any idea how this could be corrected.

quote: on another note, how many more units does everyone think we'll need before all of the niches in the game are filled? modern worker (either move 2 or treat all terrain as roads and a little more expensive)

I instantly liked this idea.

And now, back to the game ... ahem, test.

	22-02-2002 06:10									#362
	Put an end to popups!

hmmm i looked at your game, and all i gotta say is, what happened to the romans psycho boy?

just kidding

anyways here is my report of the civs at 1275 and my save games

______________________________

1275 AD

Aztecs
3 gold
monarchy
strategic resources: iron, horses

Tenochtitlan (100)
8 pop
palace
barracks
granary
library
walls
colosseum
luxuries: 1
culture: 5 615/1000 (77)
production: 9/1
food surplus: 1
growth in: 18
comm(t/s/c): 6/4/0
garrison: jag warrior, 3 spearmen, pikeman, settler
building a: worker
complete in: 1

Teotihuacan (91)
7 pop
granary
temple
marketplace
library
aqueduct
harbor
forbidden palace
luxuries: 1
culture: 6 465/1000 (90)
production: 9
food surplus: 1
growth in: 26
comm(t/s/c): 9/4/0
garrison: swordsman, horseman, galley, 2 spearmen, jag warrior
building a: barracks
complete in: 2

Tlatelolco (60)
6
barracks
granary
temple
marketplace
library
walls
harbor
forum
luxuries: 1
culture: 6 436/1000
production: 7/2
food surplus: 4
growth in: -
comm(t/s/c): 6/3/2
garrison: 2 spearmen
building a: aqueduct
complete in: 7

Texcoco (64)
6 pop
barracks
granary
temple
library
walls
harbor
forum
luxuries: 1
culture: 5 371/1000
production: 6/1
food surplus: 3
growth in: -
comm(t/s/c): 5/3/2
garrison: 2 spearmen
building a: aqueduct
complete in: 6

Tlaxcala (66)
6 pop
granary
temple
library
walls
harbor
forum
luxuries: 1
culture: 5 312/1000 (138)
production: 5/2
food surplus: 2
growth in: -
comm(t/s/c): 6/3/3
garrison: 2 spearmen
building a: aqueduct
complete in: 9

Calixtlahuaca
6 pop
barracks
granary
temple
library
walls
harbor
forum
luxuries: 1
culture: 6 431/1000 (95)
production: 6/1
food surplus: 1
growth in: -
comm(t/s/c): 4/3/1
garrison: 2 spearmen
building a: aqueduct
complete in: 7

Xochicalco (97)
7 pop
library
aqueduct
harbor
the oracle
luxuries: 1
culture: 6 324/1000 (113)
production: 7/1
food surplus: 2
growth in: 15
comm(t/s/c): 6/3/1
garrison: 2 spearmen, jag warrior, settler
building a: barracks
complete in: 2

Tlacopan (56)
5 pop
barracks
granary
temple
library
walls
forum
luxuries: 1
culture: 5 282/1000 (144)
production: 8/5
food surplus: -
growth in: zero
comm(t/s/c): 3/3/3
garrison: spearman, pikeman
building a: sun tzu's
complete in: 64

______________________________

Egypt
97 gold
republic
strategic resources: iron

Thebes (investigate cost 48)
6 pop
Palace
Barracks
Colosseum
The Hanging Gardens
luxuries: 5
culture: 7 579/1000 (61)
production: 9
food surplus: 2
growth in: -
comm(t/s/c): 9/6/1
garrison: 4 pikemen
building a: pikeman
complete in: 3

Memphis (55)
7 pop
Library
Aqueduct
Harbor
luxuries: 5
culture: 2
production: 6/1
food surplus: 3
growth in: 5
comm(t/s/c): 11/10/5
garrison: 3 spearmen and a settler
building a: barracks
complete in: 4

Heliopolis (33)
4 pop
barracks
library
the great library
forum
luxuries: 5
culture: 13 622/1000 (30)
production: 7/1
food surplus: 3
growth in: 5
comm(t/s/c): 5/4/2
garrison: settler, 2 pikemen
building a: settler
complete in: 5

Elephantine (47)
6 pop
barracks
library
harbor
forum
luxuries: 5
culture: 4 294/1000 (177)
production: 6/4
food surplus: 2
growth in: -
comm(t/s/c): 5/4/5
garrison: 2 pikemen, swordsman, settler
building a: copernicus obs
complete in: 53

Alexandria (25)
3 pop
barracks
marketplace
library
forum
luxuries: 5
culture: 4 296/1000 (176)
production: 6/2
food surplus: -
growth in: zero
comm(t/s/c): 6.3.2
garrison: 2 pikemen
building a: forbidden palace
complete in: 14

Pi-Ramesses (17)
2 pop
library
forum
luxuries: 5
culture: 4 268/1000 (183)
production: 4/3
food surplus: -
growth in: zero
comm(t/s/c): 2.3.2
garrison: spearman, pikeman
building a: sun tzu's
complete in: 98

Giza (30)
3 pop
NONE
luxuries: 5
culture: -
production: 2/2
food surplus: 3
growth in: 1
comm(t/s/c): 4.3.7
garrison: spearman, pikeman
building a: settler
complete in: 17

Byblos (20)
2 pop
NONE
luxuries: -
culture: -
production: 1/2
food surplus: -
growth in: zero
comm(t/s/c): 1/0/1
garrison: spearman, pikeman
building a: settler
complete in: 23

El-Amarna (16)
1 pop
NONE
luxuries: -
culture: -
production: 1
food surplus: 1
growth in: 6
comm(t/s/c): 1/0/5
garrison: spearman
building a: worker
complete in: 1

______________________________

England
ANARCHY

______________________________

France
38 gold
republic
strategic resource: iron, horses

Paris (48)
5 pop
library
luxuries: 4
culture: 2
production: 7
food surplus: 3
growth in: 4
comm(t/s/c): 4/22/1
garrison: pikeman, 2 spearmen
building a: copernicus obs
complete in: 29

Orleans (53)
5 pop
barracks
forum
luxuries: 4
culture: 2 66/100 (17)
production: 8/2
food surplus: 2
growth in: 2
comm(t/s/c): 2/9/3
garrison: 2 pikemen
building a: settler
complete in: 1

Lyons (45)
pop 5
NONE
luxuries: 4
culture: -
production: 6
food surplus: 3
growth in: 2
comm(t/s/c): 2/7/2
garrison: spearman
building a: sun tzu's
complete in: 67

Rheims (30)
3 pop
NONE
luxuries: 4
culture: -
production: 2
food surplus: 4
growth in: 5
comm(t/s/c): 2/8/2
garrison: settler, spearman, galley
building a: pikeman
complete in: 13

Tours (32)
2 pop
NONE
luxuries: 4
culture: -
production: 2/1
food surplus: 2
growth in: 1
comm(t/s/c): 1/2/1
garrison: pikeman, worker
building a: settler
complete in: 13

Marseilles (37)
3 pop
harbor
luxuries: 4
culture: -
production: 3
food surplus: 2
growth in: 7
comm(t/s/c): 2/7/0
garrison: pikeman, spearman
building a: barracks
complete in: 22

Chartres (12)
1 pop
NONE
luxuries: -
culture: -
production: 1/1
food surplus: 1
growth in: 17
comm(t/s/c): 0/1/1
garrison: pikeman
building a: settler
complete in: 44

Avignon (28)
1 pop
NONE
luxuries: 4
culture: -
production: 3/1
food surplus: 1
growth in: 6
comm(t/s/c): 1/2/1
garrison: warrior
building a: pikeman
complete in: 5

______________________________

Rome
47 gold
republic
strategic resources: iron

Rome
12 pop
palace
barracks
marketplace
library
pyramids (obelisk)
the great wall
luxuries: 5
culture: 15 1505/10000 (567)
production: 11/1
food surplus: 8
growth in: -
comm(t/s/c): 31/21/2
garrison: 4 pikemen
building a: sun tzu's
complete in: 13

Veii
6 pop
(obelisk)
luxuries: 5
culture: 1 125/1000 (875)
production: 7/1
food surplus: 4
growth in: -
comm(t/s/c): 7/4/2
garrison: spearman, pikeman
building a: copernicus's obs
complete in: 25

Antium
2 pop
barracks
marketplace
(obelisk)
luxuries: 5
culture: 1 125/1000 (875)
production: 4/1
food surplus: 2
growth in: 6
comm(t/s/c): 4/2/1
garrison: pikeman
building a: legionary
complete in: 1

Cumae
6 pop
barracks
marketplace
harbor
forum
(obelisk)
luxuries: 5
culture: 5 427/1000 (115)
production: 6/1
food surplus: 2
growth in: 8
comm(t/s/c): 10/5/2
garrison: galley, 2 pikemen
building a: settler
complete in: 1

Neapolis
3 pop
barracks
harbor
(obelisk)
luxuries: 5
culture: 1 125/1000 (875)
production: 2/1
food surplus: -
growth in: zero
comm(t/s/c): 1/1/2
garrison: pikeman
building a: pikeman
complete in: 14

Pompeii
6 pop
(obelisk)
luxuries: 5
culture: 1 125/1000 (875)
production: 5/2
food surplus: 2
growth in: 4
comm(t/s/c): 5/3/4
garrison: spearman, pikeman
building a: forbidden palace
complete in: 13

Pisae
1 pop
NONE
luxuries: 5
culture: -
production: 1/1
food surplus: 2
growth in: 4
comm(t/s/c): 1/0/5
garrison: spearman, settler
building a: legionary
complete in: 22

Ravenna
2 pop
NONE
luxuries: -
culture: -
production: 1/2
food surplus: -
growth in: zero
comm(t/s/c): 1/0/3
garrison: pikeman
building a: settler
complete in: 22

Hispalis
3 pop
NONE
luxuries: -
culture: -
production: 1/2
food surplus: -
growth in: zero
comm(t/s/c): 1/0/5
garrison: worker, pikeman
building a: settler
complete in: 30

Viroconium
2 pop
NONE
luxuries: -
culture: -
production: 1/1
food surplus: 2
growth in: 2
comm(t/s/c): 1/0/1
garrison: pikeman
building a: harbor
complete in: 56

Lugdunum
1 pop
NONE
luxuries: -
culture: -
production: 1/1
food surplus: 3
growth in: 4
comm(t/s/c): 1/0/1
garrison: worker, archer
building a: pikeman
complete in: 27

Lutetia
1 pop
NONE
luxuries: -
culture: -
production: 1
food surplus: 4
growth in: 2
comm(t/s/c): 1/0/1
garrison: pikeman
building a: worker
complete in: 6

______________________________

1280

England
0 gold
republic
strategic resources: none

London
1 pop
forum
luxuries: 1
culture: 2 90/100 (5)
production: 3
food surplus: 2
growth in: 4
comm(t/s/c): 1/4/0
garrison: worker, spearman
building a: library
complete in: 21

York
3 pop
NONE
luxuries: -
culture: -
production: 2
food surplus: 2
growth in: 9
comm(t/s/c): 0/2/0
garrison: -
building a: settler
complete in: 18

Nottingham
3 pop
NONE
luxuries: -
culture: -
production: 2/1
food surplus: -
growth in: zero
comm(t/s/c): 0/2/0
garrison: -
building a: settler
complete in: 23

______________________________

Attachment: civilization iii autosave 850 ad, 1275 ad.zip
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).

	22-02-2002 14:02									#363
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

ok i haven't found any more bugs yet

but two things did come to my attention

spy cost need further lowering and culture buildings don't seem to provide enough cultural bang for the buck

as far as spy costs go here is what i have them at

*Build an Embassy cost 15
*Investigate City cost 7
*Steal Technology cost 9
*Steal World Map cost 1
*Plant Spy cost 45
*Steal Plans cost 7
*Initiate Propaganda cost 80
*Sabotage Production cost 8
*Expose Enemy Mole cost 60

and here is what i'm going to change them too

*Build an Embassy cost 15
*Investigate City cost 5
*Steal Technology cost 8
*Steal World Map cost 1 (and that is still too high!)
*Plant Spy cost 45
*Steal Plans cost 5
*Initiate Propaganda cost 65
*Sabotage Production cost 8
*Expose Enemy Mole cost 60

as far as culture buildings go, there are some stat changes in have in mind

here are all of the ancient and middle age that produce culture and their shields per culture point

temple 60 (30)
Colosseum 120
Cathedral 80 (40)
Library 40 (20)
University 66.7 (33.4)
Newspaper 120
Forum 30
Theater 40

so althought the forum is the best thing cultural wise to spend your shields on, is it and the theater powerful enough from a cultural standpoint?

hmmm and that doesn't even take into account the scientific or religious abilities which are listed secondly

hmmm, so i'm thinking of changing the forum to one of the following

moderately powerful: 100/4/1
powerful: 80/4/1
really powerful 60/3/1

i'm not sure which one i'm going to switch it to yet, but it the theater and the musuem will all get an upgrade (at least a slight one)

____________________________

not sure if i mentioned this before, but so far the strangest combat result i've seen is this

a regular (6hp) rifleman (6.8.1) attacks either an elite (12hp) or veteran (9hp) jaguar warrior (1.1.2) and loses with the jag warrior have like 2 or 3 hitpoints left

other than that i haven't seen anything truly outrageous

	23-02-2002 16:35									#364
	Support Apolyton

I have finished (and won ) my first test game with beta 7. Some quick comments:

• The AI doesn't attack with partisans anymore when at peace. THANK GOD! (And it still knows how to use them in war.)
  
• Modern Armies work well so far. I even was allowed to build the Heroic Epic after my first modern army had won a battle. (I never bothered to build a 'standard' army.) What I forgot to test: Can an army be upgraded to a modern army a) if it has unit loaded onto it b) if it's still 'empty'?
  
• Giving air units, and especially bombers, the blitz ability, enables them to do multiple attacks, sometimes without any risk of being damaged. Therefore, if the AI has bombers, you don't have any fighters, and war is declared, you can anticipate that at least two of your cities will be cut off from the road network by bombardment in the first turn. (Yes, I found that out the hard way.) IMO, this is too unbalancing - please drop the blitz ability for bombard units.
  
• The combination of much higher unit support costs and somewhat higher building maintenance costs are a strain for the treasury. I was never able to keep a positive cash-flow with a science rate of more than 70%. (This may be partly due to the fact that I'm somewhat lazy about tile-improvement, but then ... I was so before beta7 and didn't notice a similar trend then.)
  
• IMO, tech progress is somewhat too slow (I entered the modern age about 1975), but more suitable than the original tech rate of v1.17f (when combined with the AI's heavy tech trading).
  
• Wheeled settlers were again responsible for a 'bottled-in' AI civ. The Egyptians, whose starting position was to the west of me, had room for about three or four cities (well, you know this game, korn ) and were nearly cut off from the rest of the continent by a mountain chain. The only way to the unsettled plains of the north was over my territory, and I expelled their settlers whenever they tried to cross it. It was already in the middle age when the Egyptians finally figured out to build a road across the mountain chain. They founded three more cities, but let's just say it was too late for them . I'd rank wheeled settlers as 'AI can't cope with it' and drop this feature from the mod, but it's a borderline case.
  
• Although I know that the mill (the first production-enhancing building) can't be built in every city, but must have water nearby, it still confuses me in-game. What about allowing mills for every city, making them a prereq for factories and lowering the factory's production bonus to 25%?
  
• Colonists are still of no use. (IMO, the whole settler pop cost/terrain food production issue needs to be re-examined in later versions of the mod.)

	23-02-2002 21:41									#365
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

lockstep

i'm getting ready to leave for the day but here is a few quick responces

quote: The AI doesn't attack with partisans anymore when at peace. THANK GOD! (And it still knows how to use them in war.) Giving air units, and especially bombers, the blitz ability, enables them to do multiple attacks, sometimes without any risk of being damaged The combination of much higher unit support costs and somewhat higher building maintenance costs are a strain for the treasury Wheeled settlers were again responsible for a 'bottled-in' AI civ Colonists are still of no use. (IMO, the whole settler pop cost/terrain food production issue needs to be re-examined in later versions of the mod.)

*they are invisiable now, and not hidden nationality, if this works better i'll leave it like that

*i might lower the movement for air units, but i'm going to leave them with blitz, a turn is a year at least you know
right now bombers and fighters have 3 movement, and stealth bombersfighters plus jet fighters have 4 movement so i might lower them back to 2 and 3

however one of the primary goals of this mod is to upgrade air units because they were too weak, if i'm getting complaints about how powerful they are then it looks like i'm doing something right

*good, it's all about strategic choices

*hmmm and i thought it was working out decently

*colonists the units i added, or colonies that workers build?

i'll have more to say later

	23-02-2002 22:46									#366
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by korn469 *they are invisiable now, and not hidden nationality, if this works better i'll leave it like that

Partisans become visible when they attack. What I meant was that the AI used them only when at war with me.

quote: *i might lower the movement for air units, but i'm going to leave them with blitz, a turn is a year at least you know right now bombers and fighters have 3 movement, and stealth bombersfighters plus jet fighters have 4 movement so i might lower them back to 2 and 3

IIRC, the first fighter I built was able to perform the 'rebase' mission four times a turn.

quote: *colonists the units i added, or colonies that workers build?

The units you added. When colonists become available, there's no land left to found cities.

Two more things I forgot to mention in my last post:

• A despotism worker rate of 1 forces you to think about what improvement is really necessary. This is a vast improvement in gameplay.
  
• I'm tempted to turn off battle animations because of the everlasting battles caused by a hitpoint scale of 4/6/9/12. I know the reasoning for increasing hitpoints, but again - what about a scale of 3/5/7/9?

	24-02-2002 11:14									#367
	Got spare money?

Korn:

Just finished scanning through the entire thread and have been studying the editor as (with the 2/14 1.17 patch) is.

A lot of work - impressive - do you ever sleep?

Thinking about the logic of your comments on page 1, cruise missiles sinking ships:

Do we know that this won't work and/or cause crashes?

In the editor:
Make the Bomber an immobile land unit, with an operational range, appropriate bombing (plan to add recon as well) mission allowed, designate as a foot unit (per your cruise missile comments) - - and viola an air unit that can sink ships. Since its immobile can't load onto a transport, but can rebase to a carrier.

Basis of comments - the editor seems to allow me to check off appropriate boxes.

Or is it the "tactical missile" designation that flipped the switch to make ships sinkable with cruise missiles - if so disregard above - bomber becomes a kamikaze.

	24-02-2002 13:53									#368
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

candidgamera (i'm responding to you first because you were like verbal in the usual suspects, the man with the plan)

quote: Just finished scanning through the entire thread

wow impressive!

quote: do you ever sleep?

not too much

plus when i edit the blitz mod i listen to powerman5000 tonight the stars revolt drink nesquik, pump myself up and start changing things

quote: Do we know that this won't work and/or cause crashes?

yes i tried i found out about it accidently and confirmed it works ok

quote: In the editor: Make the Bomber an immobile land unit, with an operational range, appropriate bombing (plan to add recon as well) mission allowed, designate as a foot unit (per your cruise missile comments) - - and viola an air unit that can sink ships. Since its immobile can't load onto a transport, but can rebase to a carrier.

this doesn't work the way that you typed it out (for one thing land units can't load in carriers), but it is close, basically you take a unit turn it into an immobile air unit, give it bombard, RoF, and operational range then enable rebase and bombing, and set it to foot soldier (along with other fighters) and cruise missile then suddenly you have a unit that can sink ships (although it dies after it attacks) and now only fighters can load in aircraft carriers

i had already been thinking of changing carriers to only carry fighters (and bumping down all fighter changes to 6) but you just solidified things in my mind, and i created a small mod that does exactly this so check it out

although even if there was a checkbox that allowed air units to sink ships and another that allowed them to destroy ground units i don't think i would enable that at this point

however i do think i am going to add the fighters only option to carriers and see how that works out

______________________________

Lockstep

quote: Partisans become visible when they attack. What I meant was that the AI used them only when at war with me

there are two values in the editor, one is hidden nationality, these units are visable on the map, but they can attack without triggering a war, the other is invisible, which makes the unit not show up on the map unless attacking or being attacked, but they trigger wars when they do attack

quote: IIRC, the first fighter I built was able to perform the 'rebase' mission four times a turn

i'll check this out, and if it is incorrect i'll fix it

quote: The units you added. When colonists become available, there's no land left to found cities

i think this is most likely dependent on map size, because i have gotten complaints on huge maps that the rate of expansion is far too slow

if this unit proves unworkable, i might just give expansionist civs a nonwheeled 50 shield 3 pop settler unit instead

quote: A despotism worker rate of 1 forces you to think about what improvement is really necessary. This is a vast improvement in gameplay.

awsome! i'm really glad its working out
additionally it slows the game down so that people aren't building the spaceship in 1200 AD

quote: I'm tempted to turn off battle animations because of the everlasting battles caused by a hitpoint scale of 4/6/9/12. I know the reasoning for increasing hitpoints, but again - what about a scale of 3/5/7/9

wouldn't the length of the battles be virtually identical? plus the second set of values takes some of the power away from vet and elite units

quote: Any thoughts about the Pyramids/obelisks issue? I really think that the blitz mod - that I generally deem to be the best mod released so far - violates a central design element of Civ3 in that respect: You can't improve your own culture by capturing improvements or wonders.

well there is a workaround, but i think it's a sub-optimal (as far as doing it in the editor is concerned) way of doing it, but it does meet all of the criteria

first have tthe pyramids grant a certain building in all cities (no the continant or not), make that building require the pyramids to build, then have obelisks cost 10 give 1 culture and either have an upkeep of 1 or 0 and require the building that the pyramids grant...so if a civ ever captured the pyramids they would have to build their own obelisks, and therefore the pyramids wouldn't grant culture to a civ that captured them, is this what i should do?

quote: Wheeled settlers were again responsible for a 'bottled-in' AI civ. The Egyptians, whose starting position was to the west of me, had room for about three or four cities (well, you know this game, korn ) and were nearly cut off from the rest of the continent by a mountain chain. The only way to the unsettled plains of the north was over my territory, and I expelled their settlers whenever they tried to cross it. It was already in the middle age when the Egyptians finally figured out to build a road across the mountain chain. They founded three more cities, but let's just say it was too late for them . I'd rank wheeled settlers as 'AI can't cope with it' and drop this feature from the mod, but it's a borderline case.

lockstep did you check out my savegame? the egyptians expanded fairly well considering the terrain they started in, i think that while the AI isn't as proficient with wheeled settlers as the human is, i don't think that wheeled settlers was the Egyptians problem, first i think it was a specific AI preference (that being defensive units) that caused problems for the egyptians, and that it built too many of them, so many that it hurt itself, and i am going to change this

also if you look at the english in my savegame they were doing terribly! i think once again it was the AI preferences, this time settlers being the choice holding them back, that compounded with the barbarian encampments that i am assuming surrounded them from early on and they were just barely holding on for a long time

i'm going to change around the AI settings some to fix this

______________________

i have a few errands to run when i wake up in the morning, but then i'm going to work on the beta7.1 (including a pediaicons!) and i will release it either late sunday night or sometime monday with the changes we've discusseddiscussed

	24-02-2002 15:36									#369
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by korn469 wouldn't the length of the battles be virtually identical? plus the second set of values takes some of the power away from vet and elite units

The length of battles should be about 20-25% shorter, which may reduce tedium.

In the original Civ3 (2/3/4/5), a veteran unit has 33% more hitpoints than a regular unit, an elite has 66% more. In blitz 1.06 beta7 (4/6/9/12), the corresponding values are 50%/100%. With my proposal (3/5/7/9), the values would be 40%/80%. So yes, it takes away some power from vets and elites, but IMO Civ3's perceived problem is generally weird combat results and not weak elite units.

quote: well there is a workaround, but i think it's a sub-optimal (as far as doing it in the editor is concerned) way of doing it, but it does meet all of the criteria first have tthe pyramids grant a certain building in all cities (no the continant or not), make that building require the pyramids to build, then have obelisks cost 10 give 1 culture and either have an upkeep of 1 or 0 and require the building that the pyramids grant...so if a civ ever captured the pyramids they would have to build their own obelisks, and therefore the pyramids wouldn't grant culture to a civ that captured them, is this what i should do?

IMO, you should change the pyramids to a culture-only great wonder for the moment and wait for the better editor Firaxis is working on.

quote: lockstep did you check out my savegame? the egyptians expanded fairly well considering the terrain they started in, i think that while the AI isn't as proficient with wheeled settlers as the human is, i don't think that wheeled settlers was the Egyptians problem

I noticed that 'your' egyptians had figured out earlier that they needed to build a road from Thebes to the northeast and across the mountain chain. Obviously, they also founded two cities (El-Amarna and Byblos) by loading settlers onto ships and circumventing the continent. OTOH, 'my' Egyptians didn't figure out anything until it was too late. As I already said, wheeled settlers may be a borderline case for the AI.

quote: i have a few errands to run when i wake up in the morning, but then i'm going to work on the beta7.1 (including a pediaicons!) and i will release it either late sunday night or sometime monday with the changes we've discusseddiscussed

Looking forward to it.

	24-02-2002 20:17									#370
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Korn:

what about this: give carriers "the foot unit only" label?


Like the idea on fighters only carriers, short step to a modded fighter as naval bomber, naval aviation would feel more realistic if it looked more the same - little silly isn't it seeing b17's flying off carriers now - Jimmy Doolittle would be amazed I'm sure

Jet fighters especially: F14 vs. F18, not a lot of difference in appearance.

	24-02-2002 23:35									#371
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Some thoughts about cultural building stats.

In the original Civ3 v1.17f, there are six city improvements (not counting wonders, small wonders and the palace) that yield culture points per turn: temple (2), colosseum (2), cathedral (3) (the three 'happiness' buildings), library (3), university (4), research lab (2) (the three 'science' buildings). That's 16 culture points per turn for a city that has build all of them. Assuming that the three ancient city improvements (temple, colosseum, library) will be built soon enough to experience a doubling of culture points per turn (which happens after 1000 years), this results in 7 additional points per turn or a total of 23.

Version 1.06 beta7 of the blitz mod adds five city improvements that yield culture. These are: forum (2), theater (4), museum (6) (three 'culture-only' buildings), public school (1) (a fourth 'science building), newspaper (1) (a third 'anti-corruption' building - note that the courthouse and the police station, which also reduce corruption, don't yield any culture). OTOH, the six original 'culture-yielding' buildings now produce 1 culture point less per turn. A city that has built all 11 buildings will yield 24 culture points per turn, with consideration of the age bonus for ancient buildings (including the forum) that's 6 additional points per turn or a total of 30. A city that won't build the three 'culture-only' buildings (forum, theater, museum) will yield 12 culture points per turn or 16 including the age bonus.

There are some things I'd like to see changed in later versions of the blitz mod:

• IMO, it's counter-intuitive that 'science' buildings yield more culture points per turn than 'happiness' buildings (most of them being religious ones). The latter ones should yield more or at least the same culture.
  
• The research lab of v1.17f and the public school of beta7 should not yield any culture because of two reasons. Realism: From the industrial age onwards, the production of 'expert knowledge' (symbolized by the research lab) and the promotion of general education (symbolized by the public school) are, IMO, fairly separated from art and culture. Gameplay: In the late game, IMO, culture points shouldn't come as a nice side-effect of buildings that the player would want to build anyway. (Because of the initial border expansion which creates contiguous empire borders, culture should be a side effect in the early game.)
  
• The newspaper shouldn't yield any culture, just like the courthouse and the police station. Realism-wise this may be a borderline case, but so are the culture points of the colosseum, which is an ancient entertainment building and not a 'religious' one.
  
• The resulting rule would be: All 'happiness' buildings, the ancient/medieval 'science' buildings and the 'culture-only' buildings yield culture points per turn. (IMO, that's also more 'aesthetic' than a bunch of 11 'culture-yielding' buildings, which is about a third of all buildings in v1.06 beta7 of the blitz mod.)
  
• With regards to korn's opinion that 'culture buildings don't seem to provide enough cultural bang for the buck', I suggest to increase the culture points per turn for the forum, theater and museum by 2 each so that a city that has built them all will produce about 2.5 times the amount of culture compared to a city that has only built the other 'culture-yielding' buildings.

In conclusion, I suggest eight 'culture-yielding' buildings with the following culture points per turn: temple (2), colosseum (2), cathedral (3), library (2), university (3), forum (4), theater (6), museum (8). That's 30 points per turn for a city that has built all of them (40 including the age bonus) and 12 for a city that has skipped the forum, theater and museum (18 including the age bonus).

P.S.: Building costs should be 80 for the forum (20 per culture point), 160 for the theater (like in beta7, but 26.7 per culture point) and 240 for the museum (like in beta7, but 30 per culture point).

P.P.S.: I don't mind if these ideas won't be discussed before the release of beta7.1. There's always a next version.

	25-02-2002 04:31									#372
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

lockstep

quote: In the original Civ3 (2/3/4/5), a veteran unit has 33% more hitpoints than a regular unit, an elite has 66% more. In blitz 1.06 beta7 (4/6/9/12), the corresponding values are 50%/100%. With my proposal (3/5/7/9), the values would be 40%/80%. So yes, it takes away some power from vets and elites, but IMO Civ3's perceived problem is generally weird combat results and not weak elite units

i am trying to give three combinations for victory in the blitz mod, tech, morale, or numbers (or even better all three ) so high durability vets and elites are a must, i could even go for a 3/5/7/10 system, and i'll consider it for beta7.x or beta8, but the problem is, watching those battles will still grow tiresome because there are no quick animation preferences in civ3 and the animation speed was made for low hitpoint units even then multi-unit battles could take a while, so eventually you'll cut off the animations or have to suffer through it, because the only other option is to go back to civ3 levels which is unacceptable, and there is nothing in the editor that can speed up animations, so even with changing the hitpoints i still think you'll find the battles are too long with animations on

quote: IMO, you should change the pyramids to a culture-only great wonder for the moment and wait for the better editor Firaxis is working on.

i doubt firaxis will give an adequate fix over the options we already have in the next editor patch when it comes to wonder creation and such...mike said his number one priority with the editor was adding units and start locations to the map

so in beta8 i'll implement the fix i described above, and it will appear seemless to the player, they build the pyramids, then they can build obelisks, and if an enemy captures the pyramids they would have to build their own obelisks

quote: I noticed that 'your' egyptians had figured out earlier that they needed to build a road from Thebes to the northeast and across the mountain chain. Obviously, they also founded two cities (El-Amarna and Byblos) by loading settlers onto ships and circumventing the continent. OTOH, 'my' Egyptians didn't figure out anything until it was too late. As I already said, wheeled settlers may be a borderline case for the AI.

i know that wheeled settlers slow down the AI in certain starting positions, and might completely bottle it in, but for the most part most civs work out ok, so if one civ has a poor start out of all of the civs everyother game, i wouldn't exactly call that feature fundamentally broken...it also slows down the play, and makes for more natural expansion, but i got to do some checking because someone reported a bug where wheeled units cannot move over hills or forrest in addition to mountains and jungles...if this is the case i will temporarily disable wheeled settlers

quote: IMO, it's counter-intuitive that 'science' buildings yield more culture points per turn than 'happiness' buildings (most of them being religious ones). The latter ones should yield more or at least the same culture.

i'll look over this, and try to get them to produce around the same culture rate per shield

quote: The research lab of v1.17f and the public school of beta7 should not yield any culture because of two reasons. Realism: From the industrial age onwards, the production of 'expert knowledge' (symbolized by the research lab) and the promotion of general education (symbolized by the public school) are, IMO, fairly separated from art and culture. Gameplay: In the late game, IMO, culture points shouldn't come as a nice side-effect of buildings that the player would want to build anyway.

consider them nuked!
that means a modern age culture building is needed but i'll wait to beta8 for that

quote: The newspaper shouldn't yield any culture, just like the courthouse and the police station

see below

quote: The resulting rule would be: All 'happiness' buildings, the ancient/medieval 'science' buildings and the 'culture-only' buildings yield culture points per turn. (IMO, that's also more 'aesthetic' than a bunch of 11 'culture-yielding' buildings, which is about a third of all buildings in v1.06 beta7 of the blitz mod.)

sounds like a good rule, it made need slight modification...ie in adding in the government buildings to that list but at a lower rate like if i doubled the border expansion to 20 that might make it easier to increase and balance the buildings on a shields to culture basis so if the courthouse,, newspaper, and police station generated 1 culture on a 20 scale it would be effectively half a culture point , but i think it is a good place to start

quote: In conclusion, I suggest eight 'culture-yielding' buildings with the following culture points per turn: temple (2), colosseum (2), cathedral (3), library (2), university (3), forum (4), theater (6), museum (8). That's 30 points per turn for a city that has built all of them (40 including the age bonus) and 12 for a city that has skipped the forum, theater and museum (18 including the age bonus).

ok in beta7 here are those buildings

temple 60/1 (60)
colosseum 120/1 (120)
cathedral 160/2 (80)
library 80/2 (40)
university 200/3 (66.67)
forum 60/2 (30)
theater 160/4 (40)
museum 240/6 (40)

ok here's how i'm going to do it in beta7.1 for culture, though i was already planning on changing the forum to 80 shields before i read your post lockstep!

temple 60/1
colosseum 120/2
cathedral 160/2
library 80/1
university 200/3
*forum 80/3
theater 160/6
museum 240/9
palace 100/1
*courthouse 60/-
newspaper 120/-
*police station 180/-
public school 200/-
research lab 240/-

so that means the ancient total in 1.17f is 7 culture points a turn from buildings -->temple (2), library (3), colosseum (2)

in the blitz mod the ancient total in beta7.1 is 7 culture points a turn from buildings -->temple (1), library (1), colosseum (2), forum (3)

the middle ages total in 1.17f is 7 culture points a turn from buildings -->cathedral (3), university (4)

the middle ages total in beta7.1 is 11 culture points a turn from buildings --> cathedral (2), university (3), theater (6)

the industrial age total in 1.17f is 0 culture points a turn from buildings

the industrial age total in beta7.1 is9 culture points a turn from buildings --> museum (9)

the modern age total in 1.17f is 2 culture points a turn from buildings --> research lab (2)

the modern age total in beta7.1 is 0 culture points a turn from buildings

__________________

candidgamera

quote: what about this: give carriers "the foot unit only" label?

that's the only way to make them carry fighters only, so we had the same thought, i just don't think you realized that's what i meant when i said i was going to change carriers earlier

quote: short step to a modded fighter as naval bomber, naval aviation would feel more realistic if it looked more the same

no need for it (except possibily for AI purposes) look at the stats of the jet fighter, (well once i update them of course hehe) and you can see that they represent F/A-18's, tornados, harriers, Mig-27's, as well as the traditional F-14's, F-16's, F-15's, Mig-29's, Su-27's etc.

__________________

since this is going to be beta7.1 i am going to ensure save game capability on it by NOT including new units or buildings, though i am thinking of new things to do

however in beta8 i am going to fix the pyramids as per my comments above, i may add a new unit, and i am going to add in a BRAND NEW cultural small wonder

Victory Arch (think arch de triumph in paris), it will require a military victory by an army, and at least 2 armies, it will cost 400 shields and provide a yet to be determined amount of culture per turns

i'm working on beta7.1 right now

	25-02-2002 18:46									#373
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

_____________________

beta7.1

Fixes

*correctly set captured units to workers
*correctly set police stations to require a courthouse
*fixed fascism so that it requires upkeep and gives a trade bonus
*research labs no longer cause pollution

Map size Changes

*reset number of civs back to their original civ3 value (4/6/8/12/16)
*changed optimal number of cities to the following 12/16/20/28/36
*changed tech rate to the following 75/115/150/215/280

Balance Changes

*changed each drafted citizen to have a hurry penalty of 30 turns
*changed chariots and war chariots cost to 10
*changed pikemen to 2.3.1
*changed longbowmen to 5.1.1 40 no resources
*Fighter 5.5.2 12[4]6 100 (blitz) {F-15} oil, rubber
*Bomber 0.2.2 10[8]8 120 (blitz) oil, rubber
*Jet Fighter 15.15.3 15[5]8 150 (blitz, radar) oil, aluminum
*F-15 18.18.3 15[5]8 150 (blitz, radar, precision strike) {Jet Fighter} oil, aluminum
*Stealth Fighter 0.6.3 18[4]8 (blitz, radar, stealth) oil, aluminum, uranium
*Stealth Bomber 0.3.3 20[8]8 300 (blitz, radar, stealth) oil, aluminum, uranium
*Carriers can now only carry fighters, jet fighters, and F-15s (set carriers to transport foot soldiers only, and all of the fighters set to foot soldiers)

Espionage Changes

*Build an Embassy cost 15
*Investigate City cost 5
*Steal Technology cost 8
*Steal World Map cost 1
*Plant Spy cost 45
*Steal Plans cost 5
*Initiate Propaganda cost 65
*Sabotage Production cost 8
*Expose Enemy Mole cost 60

Building Changes

colosseum 120/2/2
library 80/1/1
forum 80/3/1
theater 160/6/2
museum 240/9/4
courthouse 60/0/1 corruption effect
newspaper 120/0/2 corruption effect, resistant to propaganda
police station 180/0/2 corruption effect, reduces war weariness
research lab 240/0/4

Changes to Civs

Egypt: Industrious, Religious
Government Preference: Communism, NONE
2 AG
Workers, Growth, Production, Happiness, Culture

Babylon: Scientific, Religious
Government Preference: Democracy, Communism
2 AG
Growth, Production, Happiness, Science, Culture

Russia: Expansionistic, Scientific
Government Preference: Communism, NONE
4 AG
Naval, Growth, Production, Science, Explore, Culture

China: Militaristic, Industrious
Government Preference: Communism, Democracy
5 AG
Offensive, Workers, Naval, Air, Growth, Production

America: Industrious, Expansionistic
Government Preference: Democracy, Fascism
4 AG
Workers, Naval, Air, Growth, Production, Explore

France: Industrious, Commercial
Government Preference: Democracy, Anarchy
2 AG
Workers, Growth, Production, Wealth, Trade

Persia: Industrious, Scientific
Government Preference: Democracy, None
3 AG
Workers, Growth, Production, Science, Culture

Zulu: Militaristic, Expansionistic
Government Preference: Communism, Democracy
5 AG
Offensive, Naval, Air, Growth, Explore

Iroquois: Expansionistic, Religious
Government Preference: Democracy, Fascism
3 AG
Naval, Growth, Happiness, Explore, Culture

English: Expansionistic, Commercial
Government Preference: Democracy, Communism
3 AG
Workers, Naval, Growth, Production, Wealth, Trade

Changes to resources

*all disappearance rates set to 900
_____________________


i'll update the main readme soon...but the file is up
enjoy!

	26-02-2002 01:48									#374
	Inflate your Upload Space

Great work, especially the updated civilopedia!

The only discrepancy to our latest discussion I've noticed so far is that the public school (unlike the newspaper and research lab) still yields culture. I don't know if this is intended.

Regarding tech rates, you chose 75/115/150/215/280 rather than my suggestion of 90/120/150/210/280. That's no big difference, anyway IMO the tech rates scale should be an exact multiple of the no. of optimal cities scale, which now is 12/16/20/28/36. (BTW, this rule was observed in Civ3 v1.07f.)

I'm going to start a beta7.1 test game tomorrow. Moreover, I'll try to comment on the additional buildings (exempt 'culture-only' ones ) and to building maintenance costs in general.

	26-02-2002 04:46									#375
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Yes, I agree with Lockstep, Korn, you did a fantastic job. I couldn't believe how well updated the civilopedia is.

Well, I finally got to play my first game with any version of beta7, or for that matter even patch1.17f. I'm in the year 1400 sumpin, and I am doing terrible, at least compared to past games. . .

I just now entered the Middle Ages! There a couple of reasons for this, though:

1) On started out on a small continent only with the Japanese.
2) Around 1500bc I declared war on them and eventually destroyed them by 100ad (not exact dates).
3) The war took a very long time, and I'll specify why later.
4) Once I had defeated the Japanese I had the whole continent to myself, or so I thought.
5) For about 1000 years I had to deal with the barbarians, and they are a ***** to say the least. That swordsmen and knight combination is nearly impossible to defeat with minimal technology. I have a proposal for this that I'll state later on.

The lack of Civs around me stopped me from being able to trade techs, which is one of the big source for gaining technologies in the game. The small continent didn't allow me to use my expansionist trait (I was the Americans, btw) very much, so that trait was basically useless. Me going into war made me spend a lot of my time (not being able to expand much during the war time) and money (too many units) towards other things, not allowing me to increase my science rate. Having to deal with the barbarians was a war in itself; probably more costly than my war with the Japanese. This situation is not neccasarily an occurrence because of poor rules or anything, but it is a bit extreme and should have a few work arounds. Btw, I only had barbarians on roaming and that was the hardest fight against barbarians I've ever had in any game of Civ2 or Civ3 I've played.

*Regarding the whole barbarian situation:

Make barbarians just a little bit less of a deterrent. Instead of using the knight and swordsmen combo use a different combo. That combo should be a unit that is 2.1.2 {invisible} and a swordsmen. Also, the Privateer may be too powerful, considering how early Barbarians get to use this unit, however, I haven't got to fully notice this yet. This still keeps barbarians really powerful, but it wouldn't be near impossible to beat them, more of a feasible task.

*Some solutions to help out the whole tech advancing situation:

1) Give more technologies prerequisites, because the more preres there are the less trading that can take place. Let me explain my reasoning on this with an example: There are ten techs each labeled a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h, i, and j. With j requiring g and i requring e. One Civ has researched a, e, j, c, and g and another Civ has researched d, b, f, a, e, and c.

a - e - j
b - f
c - g - h
d - i

If those two Civs tried to trade with each other not one tech would be able to be traded.

If that tech tree iwere to be completely linear (meaning no 'outside' prereqs)(j not requring g and i not requiring e) then here are the possible trade sets:

j for d
g for d
j for b
g for b

That would put each Civ at equal terms, meaning less diversity between the two Civs and a speedier advancement through the tech tree. With the extra prereqa there is less trading (slower tech advancement) and Civ's with different techs (more diversity). I realize that wasn't a prime example, but I hope you see my point.

2) Lower the the max research limit to 48 (currently 50) and lower the min time it takes to research to 1 (currently 2, IIRC).

3) Lessen the cost for all of the techs by about 5%. (just a thought)

*The outrigger should have it's movement decreased to 1. I'm not sure if you noticed this or not but when you select to build the outrigger it shows up as a stealth bomber in your city screen. It doesn't show this icon in the list of things to build but after you decide to build the outrigger, in the large box showing what you are currently building it shows the stealth bomber. I hope I was able to explain that clearly; I thought I took a screenshot of it, but I guess I didn't.

*Chariots are now much more useful with their low cost.

*I know this isn't brand new, but I like the two harbor building requirement you gave to the lighthouse.

Well, even though, I had a lot to say I still think the changes made to beta7/beta7.1 (plus patch v1.17f's changes) have made the game really fun. That's the first time I can say that for Civ3; before I could only say that game is pretty fun, but now the game is really fun. So thanks, Korn, for putting all that hardwork into Civ3 to finally make it a "really fun" game.

	26-02-2002 05:00									#376
	Suffering from ads?

a quick note before i post a real responce...there was a bug in beta7.1 ports gave veteran ground units instead of veteran sea units,

only about five people downloaded it, but you can either change that in the editor or download beta7.2

	26-02-2002 06:18									#377
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

what do you guys think about increasing/decreasing the research rate (whichever makes it take more to research a tech in the same amount of time) as well as decreasing the max turns to discover? Say make it max 20 turns for a new discovery, but make it really hard to get down to the minimum of 3 or 4 turns per tech. That way you can actually get more worth from having more cities instead of just having them for histogram points.

	26-02-2002 10:53									#378
	Get a bigger avatar today!

i'm feeling like a real glutton for punishment
so i'm going to start a game on a small map, deity, raging hordes all random civs and see how i do

wish me luck

	27-02-2002 05:08									#379
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Just FYI korn - the mod section of civ3.com has been opened. I think you have something to offer ...

	27-02-2002 06:26									#380
	Suffering from ads?

lockstep

hehe i already sent them a copy

anyways i was playing and a got a sound crash

quote: CIVILIZATION3 caused an invalid page fault in module SOUND.DLL at 016f:0229862f. Registers: EAX=00000144 CS=016f EIP=0229862f EFLGS=00010202 EBX=0000017d SS=0177 ESP=0285fe70 EBP=0000f800 ECX=00000001 DS=0177 ESI=0880f000 FS=138f EDX=026b5050 ES=0177 EDI=0d8a5c94 GS=192e Bytes at CS:EIP: f3 a4 8b 4a 20 5f 03 c8 5e 89 4a 20 5b c2 10 00 Stack dump: 00000800 00000000 0d8a4828 26f01065 026b5050 0d8a5b18 0000017d ffffffff 00000800 00000000 0d8a4828 26f05c7c 00000000 0d8a4828 00000001 00000001

but since i haven't messed with the sound files i don't think i caused it

hehe i'm the americans on diety/raging

	28-02-2002 04:39									#381
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

ok i was playing around, and while barbarians certainly were strong they weren't insurmountable, however in my first game it was me(america) and the aztecs all alone on a continant to ourselves, the continant was roughly just a straight line the me at the bottom and the aztecs at the top

the map size was either small or standard i don't remember completely, but i think it was small

my start location was a dream, by moving one space over i had 4 wheat tiles in my city radius, and there incense close by

however to my left where the incense was happened to be all desert and above me was all jungle

there was also only two huts but they were both good, i got ceremonial burial and a settler, and the place i happened tofound the city with my settler was amazing it held both horses and iron, though i didn't know this at the time

anyways after fighting with some barbarians in the jungles which wasn't too bad because of scout, the Aztecs filled up the top part of the continant and i filled up the jungle part at a slower rate, without the industrious bonus and all of the extra food, even accomplishing this would have been impossible, our continant was isolated while the other civs had contact with each other

i rushed straight for monarchy however the aztecs were quite uncooperative trading partners and both of our research was going especially slow

around 1200 AD me and the aztecs were both in monarchy had filled the continant, both of us had bronze working and i had just traded for iron working from them, we had tech parity, and both of us had alphabet and writing, and i was working on map making...however because i didn't have construction my cities were stuck at size 6, and i had just discovered that i had iron in addition to horses in that upper city

i had time to build two or three swordsmen and i had about three of four horsemen and some various archers and spearmen when the aztes declared war on me
i had 8 cities and the aztecs had more than that though i'm not exactly sure how many the aztecs had, this meant i had 16 free unit support, and each additional unit cost 2 gold in support
so as the war started the aztec had a huge numbers advantage, and then since i didn't prepare properly for the war, the aztecs pillage the road to my iron and my horses and then not too long after that took the city leaving a small area of jungle seperating us

as the war dragged on i had to basically put everything into taxes to support the size of my ever growing archer/spearman force, and while i was able to keep to horsemen alive along with a swordsman and get them all to elite, it just wasn't enough

i had a size 4 border city that i had hurried barracks and walls, and it had my swordsman, two spearmen and two archers in it, the only thing was this city was slightly offset so it didn't force the aztecs to go through it while they hammered it, they also bypassed itand killed all but one defender (including one of my elite horsemen i was using as a reserve) in my second tier city

suddenly there were a large force of archers, swordsmen, andjag warriors getting ready to seize a six 6 city that had four dyes in its city radius, and after that it was an open path to the heart of my empire, support cost were already wearing my civ down and we just got news that the germans had finished copernicus's observatory at the beginning of the war, and when i finally sued for peace, with a very small treasury the aztecs demand my walled border city, and i gave it up

i got worse news, the french had just completed magellens expedition, like a turn before i discovered map making

the aztecs had a healthy treasury around 400 gold, while i maybe had 30 gold in mine, the aztecs had also heavily garrisoned my two captured cities and when i checked diplomacy, after i discovered map making, much to my horror, the aztecs only had 1 gold, but they then had communications with all of the other civs and every single tech i was able to research

they had made contact, and i still hadn't even seen another civ, but even if i did i wouldn't had the money to catch up in techs with them, for all i know they may had of entered the modern era by then...i'm not sure exactly how many techs the aztecs had bought but they were in the middle ages, and still furious at me

so i went ahead and retired before aztec middle age units over ran me, also the cost of stealing tech was still outrageously high

and the aztecs even had a better culture than i did

anyways some random thoughts

tech trading is out of hand! while i think the tech rates are too high because one civ along can't research the tech, tech trading means that isolated civs will die, and civs that aren't making money to trade will die, and the human which gets the worse end of the bargin will have a hard time

i'm not sure on the mod side what to do about it, I had a fairly well played game, but the AI still beat me and tech whoring figures into that equation, the only thing is, if i lower the tech rate (which i am going to do but not by too much) the AI simply trades fater

in my other game, (which i am going to resume) i basically got tired and put all of my cities under govenor control and automated all of my units and then traded techs, and around 600ad i was the tech laggard again, but i still had many of the industrial age techs though the price for industrialization and replacable parts was too much because the AI simply wouldn't trade with me, so by 1000ad the AI would have probably research every tech in the game, and this is on a standard sized map with 8 civs total, one of them being eliminated

i would like to see a roughly historical tech rate, but with the way the AI tech whores, if the tech rate is set high enough to cause this then any isolated civs won't get out of the ancient era before the game ends, and if it is set low enough so isolation wouldn't completely kill you the AI will have researched space flight by 1ad

i'm still trying to figure this one out

	28-02-2002 20:34									#382
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korn,

I installed your mod with no problems and have decided to try it using my Five City Challenge approach. There are just too many limiting things for a decent OCC game, but the mod seems just right for use of FCC in its place.

One question I had was whether saves from non-mod games can be loaded into the game. I tried this with a few, and always got the error message:

Data0 operation System Error: CNSL

Then I started a new game with your mod, saved it a few times and reloaded it a few times, all with success.

Anyways, being new to using mods, I wasn't sure whether old saves were compatible, so now I ask.

Without playing much yet, I know I will already like the increased number of city improvements and the added pre-requisites for some of the wonders. I expect to begin a real test of the mod with an FCC game in about a week or so.

solo

	01-03-2002 03:20									#383
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quote: Originally posted by korn469 in beta8 i'll implement the fix i described above, and it will appear seemless to the player, they build the pyramids, then they can build obelisks, and if an enemy captures the pyramids they would have to build their own obelisks

korn, it looks like your workaround for obelisks actually won't work in v1.17f. Details in http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=43584.

	01-03-2002 16:16									#384
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solo

quote: I installed your mod with no problems and have decided to try it using my Five City Challenge approach. There are just too many limiting things for a decent OCC game, but the mod seems just right for use of FCC in its place.

while it wasn't an objective of the mod, i think that only the most skilled player with a little luck could ever get an OCC victory in the blitz mod, but i can't wait to here about your testing with the five city challenge

quote: One question I had was whether saves from non-mod games can be loaded into the game. I tried this with a few, and always got the error message:

anytime you add (or take away) a building to the civ3mod.bic it becomes incompatiable you can change the buildings around as much as you want, but if you add or take away one it won't work with a save game

quote: Without playing much yet, I know I will already like the increased number of city improvements and the added pre-requisites for some of the wonders. I expect to begin a real test of the mod with an FCC game in about a week or so

can't wait for an indepth run down of your game
hehe we need toe truck in here too

lockstep

quote: korn, it looks like your workaround for obelisks actually won't work in v1.17f. Details in http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=43584.

i saw that thread, how utterly disappointing, but before you guys break out the torches and pitchforks and come attack me chanting "down with the obelisk" lets just wait for the patch? ok

_____________________________

so far i have noticed that in the modern era the AI loves to stay at war and it loves to run fascism, so we need to counter this

so...here is what i've come up with
in beta7 there was a creation oversite where i had forgot to mark standard trade bonus, and requires upkeep for fascism

so this gave me an idea, since communism looks so unappealing to the AI right now i have thought of the following idea

make two changes to communism, don't require upkeep in communism, and then give them the standard tile penalty

this might make communism more competitive with fascism on the one had, and make it more like real life communism on the other, that basically the communist economic system is not even close to the productivity of a market system

any thoughts on that?

	02-03-2002 04:29									#385
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Well, before I go finish my current Civ3 game I'll post a few thoughts.

quote: before you guys break out the torches and pitchforks and come attack me chanting "down with the obelisk" lets just wait for the patch? ok

Ok, that's fine.

quote: make two changes to communism, don't require upkeep in communism, and then give them the standard tile penalty

Ths sounds like an interesting idea.

quote: ok i was playing around, and while barbarians certainly were strong they weren't insurmountable

That's how I felt about them before I started to my play my current game. The barbarians were such a huge deterrent that it set me back about 1000 years in terms of science. Well, I at least think that you should not include the Privateer as the barbarian's naval unit. What you should do is make a fire galley unit between the galley and caravel. The reason why I say the fire galley is because somebody has already made graphics for the unit, and this would be a nice, little addition. Then give the barbarians the fire galley as it's naval unit. Privateers are just far too powerful, and outriggers and galleys simply just don't have a chance of defending (or killing) itself against a privateer.

The changes that should be made to naval units because of the fire galley (and other reasons):

*outrigger should have 1 movement
*galley should have 3 movement
*fire galley should have 3 att/2 def/3 mov and 0 loading capacity. come with engineering, have 3 shield cost, and upgrades to frigate.
*caravel should have 2 attack not 0. i'm not sure if this is a bug or not, but the caravel doesn't seem all that much more powerful than a galley, considering that a galley has an attack of 2.
*to make the man o' war more of a useful UU give it a loading capacity of 1.

Concerning the AI tech trading problem, I think giving techs more prereqs will help lessen the amount of trading. On top of that, though, I think there should be less "era advancing required" techs. This would do a few things, at least I think, keep the tech tree still somewhat realistic, lessen AI tech trading, and make the tech tree more flexible. Civs will be able to advance to the next age more freely, but will still have to stay balanced because of the increased amount of prereqs. For this to be true, though, most of the new prereqs will have to come fairly early in the era.

For example, take the current Ancient Tech Tree:

BroWork-----IroWork-----Constr(req: Mat)

Mas-----Math(req: Alp)-----Curr

Alph-----

-----------Writ(req: Alp)-----

---------------------------------Phi-----

------------------------------------------Rep(req: Phi & CodLaw)

---------------------------------CodeLaw-----

---------------------------------Lit

---------------------------------MapMak(req:Pot)

Pott-----

Whe-----

---------------Hors(rea: Whe & WarCod)

WarCod-----

CerBur-----Myst-----Poly-----Mon(req: WarCod)


bold = optional advance

This format allows makes people go through most of the tech tree before going to the Middle Ages, yet there aren't many prereqs for techs. The consequences of this are more realism in the tech tree, more available tech trading deals, and more restriction on the player in what to research. My proposed format should fix the two problems of the tech tree, while keeping the realism.

BroWork-----IroWork-----

Mas-----Constr(req: IroWor & Mat)


----------Math(req: Alp)-----Curr

Alph-----

----------Writ-----CodeLaw-----Rep(req: Phi)

--------------------Lit-----Phi-----

--------------------MapMak(req: Pott)

Pott-----

Whe-----

---------------Hors(rea: Whe & WarCod)

WarCod-----

CerBur-----Myst-----Poly-----Mon(req: WarCod)


bold = required advance


Notice the difference in what bold equals between the two tech trees. Well, I think this type of format for the tech tree fits very well and is much better. It makes it so Civs have to know less techs to advance to the next era (7 optional techs to be exact, wheras before it was 3), while still keeping it realistic. What do you think of this?

	02-03-2002 11:51									#386
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quote: That's how I felt about them before I started to my play my current game. The barbarians were such a huge deterrent that it set me back about 1000 years in terms of science. Well, I at least think that you should not include the Privateer as the barbarian's naval unit. What you should do is make a fire galley unit between the galley and caravel. The reason why I say the fire galley is because somebody has already made graphics for the unit, and this would be a nice, little addition. Then give the barbarians the fire galley as it's naval unit. Privateers are just far too powerful, and outriggers and galleys simply just don't have a chance of defending (or killing) itself against a privateer.

Techwins i have actually experienced a veteran galley survive a privateer, and a regular outrigger survive a damaged privateer

however i do realize that they are really strong, and when i choose privateers my actual inspiration was the pirates of the barbary coast (they are the shores of tripoli in the U.S. Marine Corps song)

but the firegalley sounds like a great addition, can you point me to where it is at?

quote: *outrigger should have 1 movement

if it had a movement of one it would be too slow because naval units usually have to go around thing, and on anything besides an archipelligo map they can't move beyond their home waters, though i will decrease their stats to 0.1.2 10|1

quote: *galley should have 3 movement

the galley should have 3 movement if it does not then it is a bug and i'll fix it

quote: *fire galley should have 3 att/2 def/3 mov and 0 loading capacity. come with engineering, have 3 shield cost, and upgrades to frigate.

i'm thinking of doing it like this, set the galley to a transport only unit (0.2.3 30|2) , and then set the fire galley to naval power (3.3.3 30)

quote: *caravel should have 2 attack not 0. i'm not sure if this is a bug or not, but the caravel doesn't seem all that much more powerful than a galley, considering that a galley has an attack of 2

if you notice, aircraft carriers have an attack of 0 as well
the big advantage of a caravel is that it doesn't sink in seas, that and it's higher movement allow worldwide exploration, which is very important

quote: *to make the man o' war more of a useful UU give it a loading capacity of 1

hmmm, without any other stat changed? i wonder if the AI could handle that, have you found them to be particularly weak compared to frigates and privateers? (as in not as strong as other CSUs)

i am also going to move the privateer to navigation

quote: On top of that, though, I think there should be less "era advancing required" techs. This would do a few things, at least I think, keep the tech tree still somewhat realistic, lessen AI tech trading, and make the tech tree more flexible

i see how this will lessen AI tech whoring, as soon as one AI gets the tech, then every semi well off AI it has contact with also get the tech, though fewer required techs sounds like a really good idea that i will definantly add, the only thing is though, out of the optional techs, none of them must just be place holders, or we might as well take them out, additionally why require alphabet be a required tech, when it is a prereq for many other required techs, and you can't discover them until you already have alphabet? unless the AI performs poorly when it only has optional techs to choose from

only one way to find out and that is to test it

quote: Civs will be able to advance to the next age more freely, but will still have to stay balanced because of the increased amount of prereqs. For this to be true, though, most of the new prereqs will have to come fairly early in the era

ok you lost me here, i don't understand the logic behind fewer required techs and more prereqs, like if for example you made monarchy the only required tech in the ancient tech tree but also made it require currency and code of laws, what would that achieve? i don't get that, please could you elaborate on this

ok upcoming changes for the beta7.3 that will be out on sunday night or monday

*incorporate sevorak's name change mod
*change communism to the values listed above
*slightly alter monarchy and republic (like switch their corruption values) to make monarchy more competitive
*move privateer to navigation
*look for and try to correct pediaicons and civilopedia errors
*rebalance a few of the CSUs
*switch around the optional and required techs somewhat for testing purposes

does anyone else have any other little requests?

the changes that on further out that will be in beta8

*add in firegalleys
*add in the Victory Arch small wonder (a culture wonder that requires a victorious army and two armies in the field)
*changes to the culture tab

does anyone have any larger requests?

	02-03-2002 16:13									#387
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quote: Originally posted by TechWins I think there should be less "era advancing required" techs. This would do a few things, at least I think, keep the tech tree still somewhat realistic, lessen AI tech trading, and make the tech tree more flexible.

quote: Originally posted by korn469 i see how this will lessen AI tech whoring, as soon as one AI gets the tech, then every semi well off AI it has contact with also get the tech

Sorry, but I don't see how fewer 'required' techs will lessen the AI's tech whoring. TechWins and/or korn, please explain it to me.

	02-03-2002 19:30									#388
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Some general thoughts about upkeep.

In Civ3 v1.17f there are 25 improvements a city can build (counting the 4 power plants as one). Construction costs of these buildings are a total of 3500 shields, upkeep costs are a total of 41 gold (including the hydro plant as the 'average value' power plant).

Blitz 1.06 beta7.2 adds 9 improvements and changes the construction/upkeep stats of some of the existing improvements. Total construction costs of the 34 buildings available per city are 5020 shields, total upkeep costs are 75 gold.

Regarding the +43% increase in shield costs from v.1.17f to blitz, IMO this is how it should be - the effect of 'running out of things to build' is reduced or eliminated. Contrary to that, the +83% increase in upkeep is problematic, especially when combined with the blitz mod's higher unit support costs of modern governments. It is very hard to increase one's treasury as much as needed, because the added stock exchange will only increase gold supply in a city from +100% to +150%.

I suggest to adopt the following rule: With the exception of defense buildings, upkeep costs of a building are construction costs divided by 100 and rounded up to the next integer. That way, upkeep costs of the university, bank, mass transit system, recycling center and airforce installation would drop from 3 to 2, upkeep costs of the factory, hydro plant (the 'average value' power plant), research lab, stock exchange and museum would drop from 4 to 3 and upkeep costs of the manufacturing plant would drop from 5 to 4. (Note: I suggest to increase the construction costs of the stock exchange to 240 shields.) Basically this is like in Civ3 v1.17f, but with higher upkeep costs for banks, research labs and manufacturing plants. Total upkeep in a city that has built all 34 buildings would be 64 gold, which is +56% compared to v1.17f and more reasonable IMO.

I've included a compressed excel sheed with the suggested changes.

Attachment: civ3, blitz buildings.zip
This has been downloaded 5 time(s).

	02-03-2002 21:26									#389
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quote: Sorry, but I don't see how fewer 'required' techs will lessen the AI's tech whoring. TechWins and/or korn, please explain it to me.

lockstep

sorry that's a typo, i meant to say i don't see how instead of i see how, because i dodn't think there is anything i can do on the modding end to fix tech whoring as of now

quote: I've included a compressed excel sheed with the suggested changes

interesting post, i'll look over you excel sheet and see how it looks, but it sounds good and will most likely be in beta7.3

	02-03-2002 22:01									#390
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Korn,

This may sound stupid, but I have been wanting to do this. How did you get the units in the correct order in the BIC (Colonist comes right after the settler, ect...)? Did you have to recreate everything, or is there some kind of tool out there?