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korn469
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Poetic Justic
Apr 1999
time: 00:16
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_______________________
Beta7.4
_______________________
Tech Changes
*Moved Map Trading from Map Making to Navigation
*Moved Communication trading from Writing to Magnetism
*Moved Mutual Protection Pacts from Nationalism to Radio
*Moved Libraries from Literature to Writing
_______________________
Government Changes
*Changed Fascism's support to 15 free 2/3/4 2 gold
*Changed Communism to paid labor from forced labored
*Dropped all rate caps
_______________________
Unit Changes
*Added ZoC to Destroyers
*Added see Invisable units to Partisans and Marines
*Changed the Outrigger to the Galley 0.1.2 20|2 sink in seas, sink in ocean
*Changed the Galley to the War Galley 2.2.3 30 sink in seas, sink in ocean, Naval Power
*Changed the Scout to 3 movement from 1 movement all terrain as roads
*Changed the Explorer to 6 movement from 2 movement all terrain as roads
*Changed the Legion to 3.2.2 40 from 3.2.1 30 all terrain as roads
_______________________
General Changes
*Changed Barbarian Naval Unit to War Galley
*Changed worker value in shields from 20 to 25
*Changed starting distances on all map sizes to the following values
Tiny 9
Small 12
Standard 18
Large 24
Huge 32 (editor max)
_______________________
Difficulty Level Changes
*Changed the Cost Factor in Chieftan to 30 from 20
*Changed Emperor so it has the same stats as Diety in 1.17f
*Changed Diety so it is harder than Diety in 1.17f
_______________________
Wonder Changes
*Changed Shakespere's Theater to 2 happy, +50% luxuries, 16 culture
*Changed Newton's University to 500 shields
*Changed Universal Sufferage to 900 shields
*Changed Hoover Dam to 1200 shields
*Changed Longevity to 1200 shields
*Changed SETI to 1200 shields
*Changed U.N. to 1200 shields 14 culture
*Changed Forbidden Palace to 150 shields 1 culture
_______________________
Last edited by korn469 on 12-03-2002 at 22:49
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korn469
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Poetic Justic
Apr 1999
time: 00:16
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NOTE
if your version does not say beta7.4 in the version.txt then you need to redownload it
 Attachment: blitz1.06beta7.4.zip
This has been downloaded 10 time(s).
Last edited by korn469 on 15-03-2002 at 01:47
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korn469
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Poetic Justic
Apr 1999
time: 00:16
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quote:
They should have some offense for the Barbarian Privateer's. The Modern Transport has machine gun fire sound? Pirate's of the High Seas used to attack ships they all had to have some offense. I really disagree with this because it really counters real life. |
all Naval transport units including modern transports and aircraft carriers have 0 attack, the reason for this is that troops ships have never actually pursued pirates, warships have, they might have cannons but they employ defensive tactics and are not used as offensive ships, and this is what i'm trying to represent
i found a link
http://www.piratesinfo.com/browser....side_link_id=22
here is a quote, and the site has lots of interesting information
quote:
In the late 17th and early 18th centuries commercial ships were generally called "merchant ships", however mariners reserved such a term for the three masted, square rigged carrier. These ships were large and intended for passengers and cargo. The carrier was a 280 ton ship measuring 80 feet in length. While such a ship could be armed with up to 16 cannons, it is doubtful that a typical crew of about 20 could manage more than three or four such guns. This ship sports finer lines and a little more sail power than the Dutch Flute (below) and could make a trip from England to America in about 4 weeks.
The Dutch Flute was a prize in the early 17th Century. Primarily a prize for the shipping world, the Flute was an impressive 300 ton, 80 foot ship that proved inexpensive to build as well as man. The Flute needed only a dozen seamen. With a flat bottom, broad beams, and a round stern, this ship soon became the favoured model of a cargo ship. A large part of the popularity of the Flute for commerce was her incredible cargo capacity; about 150% that of similar ships. In this, they soon became a common prey for savvy pyrates
The Sloop was a favourable ship for pyrates and smugglers. This relatively small vessel, 100 tons drawing 8 feet of water, was quick and easy to maneuver. It wasn't undeard of for a Sloop to reach 11 knots top speed with the help of her square topsail. Along with the speed and ease of control, such a ship could carry 75 pyrates and 14 cannons. The Sloop was often the ship of choice for hunting brigands in the shallower channels and sounds |
so it might not run as counter to real life as it seems at first 
quote:
it just seems out of step to have only the "War Galley" until frigates. |
i agree, and i would be happy to add a warship in between war galleys and frigates, i'll do a little research and find something suitable 
btw are you desert fox from civfanatics?
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Ganja
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Korn, I have tried downloading the mod from the front page and from this page but the version.txt file says Beta 7.3. Is it right or wrong?
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Ganja
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korn - I ended up going over to civfanatics forum and managed to download the correct version.
around 500BC my game crashed, don't know why but I'll try playing again and see.
Yep, same again, I load my autosave from a few turn previous and the crash occurs again on the same date. I have no buildings or units finished on that turn, so I figure it must be something the AI players have built that is causing the crash. Thats my guess anyways.
Last edited by Ganja on 14-03-2002 at 06:47
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TechWins
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Arizona
Apr 2001
time: 22:16
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Before I post any comments I should note something first: I have yet to unzip.open/play beta7.4 but I have downloaded.
quote:
*Moved Libraries from Literature to Writing |
Even though I think this idea has an upside it has also has a downside; Literature becomes a very invaluable tech with the move of the library. In fact unless you have the motive to build the great library I would see no reason for a civ to research Literature, but I'm not sure if the AI will see it like that.
quote:
*Changed the Outrigger to the Galley 0.1.2 20|2 sink in seas, sink in ocean
*Changed the Galley to the War Galley 2.2.3 30 sink in seas, sink in ocean, Naval Power
|
Having that potent of a boat right off the bat will create for too much early expansion, IMO. Boat travel on large distances did not take place around 4000bc nor did it take place in 3000bc or 2000bc. I think you should add an extra boat for early naval units. However, I may be wrong because I'm not positive on what the requirements for each boat are.
*Outrigger (no req) 0.1.1 20|1 sink in seas, sink in ocean, Naval transport
*Galley (map making) 0.2.3 30|2 sink in seas, sink in ocean, Naval transport
*Wargalley (map making) 2.2.3 30 sink in seas, sink in ocean, Naval Power
Not only will this be more effective system for early naval units, IMO, it will also provide more variety for the units.
You should give a link or a reference to the wargalley graphics in your mod. That way people will be able to have unique graphics for more units. Possibly even include this as part of the files in a "heavy" download.
quote:
*Added see Invisable units to Partisans and Marines |
Good idea. And don't include anymore units with the see invisable units abiltity because as you said it will lessen the power of invisibality. Have you thought about adding an ancient day or a middle ages invisable unit?
quote:
*Changed Forbidden Palace to 150 shields 1 culture |
I was going to suggest this exact change. There is a big problem with using the forbidden palace (I'm sure you know the whole situation ) and this can only help, at least I hope so.
Well, it's pretty late right now, so I'll post the rest of my comments tomorrow.
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Ganja
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Korn - not sure if it'll help but i have attached the auto save game file. The crash occurs after a few more turns. Hopefully you can try it out and see if it crashes for you.
Attachment: auto.zip
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).
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solo
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Lowell, MA USA
Jan 2001
time: 05:16
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Tech Wins,
Moving libraries to Writing was so that the AI could build the Great Library. Before, korn's 2 library pre-req was causing them to conclude they could not build the GL, my theory being that if they can not start a wonder on the turn of a tech discovery, that they are not programmed to try this later when 2 libraries have been built. Now they are able and do attempt to build the GL.
korn,
After trying your latest, there was a slight improvement to the problem of rapid AI tech acquistion, but I felt more has to be done in this regard, so I tried two changes, using the editor, and so far have been very pleased with the results.
I am playing deity games on standard size maps with 8 civs, but in the editor I increased the standard map size to 180x180 (old huge setting) and increased the minimum starting distances between civs to the maximum of 32 (also the old huge setting).
The AI still grow and expand very rapidly, but contact between civs has diminished enough to slow the pace of tech acquisition down to a more reasonable level. Also, what used to be some very fine features of CivII have also been restored by doing this:
1) Less congestion and contact in the early part of the game.
2) The FUN of early mapping and exploration.
Try it, and I bet you'll like it!
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korn469
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Poetic Justic
Apr 1999
time: 00:16
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Ganja
thanks for the save game, i downloaded it and will test it in a few minutes, if worse comes to worse i will rebuild beta7.4 from an older beta i have on my computer
techwins
quote:
Even though I think this idea has an upside it has also has a downside; Literature becomes a very invaluable tech with the move of the library. In fact unless you have the motive to build the great library I would see no reason for a civ to research Literature, but I'm not sure if the AI will see it like that |
i'm just testing it to see if like solo said it helps to improve the AI, if not i'll move libraries back to literature
if it does help the AI then i'll see what i can do to make literature a more attractive tech
quote:
Having that potent of a boat right off the bat will create for too much early expansion, IMO. Boat travel on large distances did not take place around 4000bc nor did it take place in 3000bc or 2000bc. I think you should add an extra boat for early naval units. However, I may be wrong because I'm not positive on what the requirements for each boat are.
*Outrigger (no req) 0.1.1 20|1 sink in seas, sink in ocean, Naval transport
*Galley (map making) 0.2.3 30|2 sink in seas, sink in ocean, Naval transport
*Wargalley (map making) 2.2.3 30 sink in seas, sink in ocean, Naval Power
|
here is my thinking on the subject
there are three types of maps, archipelligo, contients, and pangea, and naval units are only really useful on the first two
now on archipelligo maps it is fairly easy to colonize other islands, because usually only coastal waters seperates them, but on contients there is usually 2-3 ocean squares and 2-4 sea squares
my goal is limit invasions and colonization of other contients to astronomy, but because of 4 move naval transports with the great lighthouse this becomes impossible, so having naval transports that move faster than 2 is problematic, however having a naval transport that moves one makes them seem useless IMO, it is 430bc in my last playtest game, and i am almost finished exploring the general outline of my contient, though even with the great lighthouse i don't think i would be able to make it to other contients, in one earlier game before i started modding i was able to cross over to another contient by getting lucky without having the great lighthouse
also having two ships is slightly simpler, though i would eventually like to add more resources, and maybe have some ships (like the wargalley) require timber as a strategic resource
quote:
You should give a link or a reference to the wargalley graphics in your mod. That way people will be able to have unique graphics for more units. Possibly even include this as part of the files in a "heavy" download. |
this is in the works
quote:
Good idea. And don't include anymore units with the see invisable units abiltity because as you said it will lessen the power of invisibality. Have you thought about adding an ancient day or a middle ages invisable unit? |
i'm not sure about earlier invisable units, except for possibly making the scout invisable...but if you can think of a good niche for an earlier invisable unit i'd like to hear
quote:
I was going to suggest this exact change There is a big problem with using the forbidden palace (I'm sure you know the whole situation) and this can only help |
yeap, the forbidden palace is one of the only wonders you build in corruption ridden low production cities, i might even make it 100 shields if it is still too hard to build, but making the FP easier to build should help fight corruption
quote:
The Galley (outrigger) is just something that should not be around that early. I thought that playing a few times, stone age times never invented a floating device at all. |
Desert D/F
well since most capitals don't start on the coast, and it does take 20 shields to build, about the earliest you will produce a no prereq galley is probably around 3250bc, and while that is fairly early, as unrealistic as civ is it isn't too far out of line
quote:
My privateer strategy will not work with the 2/2 War Galley they destroy them very easily
Why not make the Caravel the first realy war ship instead |
privateers move double the rate of war galleys, and then have slightly better odds of surviving because of the defensive terrain bonus, but i might consider making them have a 3 defense...i just want to make it so that frigates rule the sailing ships
and i have added a warship that comes with astronomy to the list of units, i'll probably call it a sloop, unless somebody else has a better name
quote:
I am not sure where your going with the above changes. I think you are making the mod only interesting to certain players or something. I personally do not agree with the tech changes. Moving them around will make the tech tree unbalanced I beleive. |
i stand behind all of my tech changes, and i want to see how they work out before i make any further changes, but in case you were wondering
*Moved Map Trading from Map Making to Navigation
*Moved Communication trading from Writing to Magnetism
those changes are made to try and combat AI tech whoring
*Moved Mutual Protection Pacts from Nationalism to Radio
i have heard many people complain that the AI self destructs in the industrial era, and my hypothesis is that MPPs create a situation in the normal game where the AIs are almost constantly at war and they switch to communism and then over whip and over draft until they almost disappear, i has used MPPs to start general wars that i remain out of, also i think this is the number one reason why all of the AI seem to choose fascism
so if i am right the industrial era won't see the AI self destruct every game, and if i'm wrong i'll change this back
but either way it needs testing
quote:
Or make a "modern infantry" unit with lower cost, low movement, and just slightly lower defense ability (20 or something), much lower attack than the mech inf. This unit would be draftable (mech inf isn't) and obviously "infantry" would upgrade to "modern infantry". I think you agree that it's also strange constructing tons of bradley-like fighting infantry vehicles (drafting mech inf) suddenly when someone declares war. |
kettyo
good idea, i'll add it to the list
quote:
The AI still grow and expand very rapidly, but contact between civs has diminished enough to slow the pace of tech acquisition down to a more reasonable level. Also, what used to be some very fine features of CivII have also been restored by doing this:
1) Less congestion and contact in the early part of the game.
2) The FUN of early mapping and exploration.
Try it, and I bet you'll like it! |
i would except i only have a p2 400 with 128mb ram...the last time i played on a huge map right around 500bc the turns started taking 5 minutes or more to process 
so i only play on standard size maps or smaller...what about the rest of you? which size map do you play on?
my brother recently got a computer with win XP a p4 2.2ghz cpu and 512mb rambus ram...so i want to try civ out on that and see how it runs 
quote:
just built a city on a DYE. It's about 40 squares a away from the nearest city. The ocean is between the two, but there is a route that my galleys can travel. The city is on a shore facing NW. The closest city is 40 tiles SW from it.
I expected to get the dyes added to my list of luxuries when I built a harbor, but it says that it's still unattached and that I need a sea route. How come this city is not attached to the rest of my cities? |
micokeman
do you have a harbor at the other side of your empire for it to connect to? if you don't then you need to build one
but if you have the great lighthouse and are using it to cross seas, then you don't actually have a sea route, because in civ3 (iirc) you need astronomy to have a sea route across seas, and magnetism or navigation either one to cross oceans
EDIT:
the correct version of the blitz mod should be on apolyton now, when you try to load a file with the same file name it apparently doesn't replace it
also i'm searching for crash bugs and hopefully i'll find it
Last edited by korn469 on 15-03-2002 at 01:51
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lockstep
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Vienna, Austria
Aug 2001
time: 06:16
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Some comments/suggestions regarding the naming of the three 'culture-only'-buildings (currently forum/theater/museum):- I don't asscociate the term 'forum' (building no. 1) with culture, art etc. It may be a good term for a Republic government-specific building (when such a thing finally works in Civ3).
- While it is somewhat intuitive that 'theaters' (building no. 2) are available with Free Artistry (the same tech that brings 'Shakespeare's Theater'), real theaters have been present since the ancient age, at least in Greece.
- I don't have a problem with 'museums' (building no. 3), except that they come with Atomic Theory (which doesn't deal that much with culture). When we start tinkering with the tech tree (and this has a very low priority IMO), we should attach 'museums' to a new tech (let's say, 'Histiography', available with Nationalism).
- To get rid of 'forums', I suggest to call the culture-only-building no. 1 'theater' and make it available with Literature (not from the beginning).
- Building no. 2 should still become available in the middle ages, its name should be strongly associated with culture (and its tech shouldn't be the one that brings Shakespeare's) ... so I suggest 'opera', available with Music Theory. (IIRC, the first operas date from the 17th century, so this is at least somewhat historically accurate.)
- Last but not least: Make 'theaters' a prereq for 'operas', and 'operas' a prereq for 'museums'. This is not historically accurate, but it makes for a less cluttered build menu. (Just like cavalry upgrading to tanks. )
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korn469
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Poetic Justic
Apr 1999
time: 00:16
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quote:
I don't asscociate the term 'forum' (building no. 1) with culture, art etc. It may be a good term for a Republic government-specific building (when such a thing finally works in Civ3).
While it is somewhat intuitive that 'theaters' (building no. 2) are available with Free Artistry (the same tech that brings 'Shakespeare's Theater'), real theaters have been present since the ancient age, at least in Greece. |
so how does this sound, instead of calling them theaters, call them amphitheater which has strong greek and roman overtones
then like you said make it come with literature which would make it a worthwhile tech once more
and making it required for the opera (which is another good idea) which would keep the same stats as the old theater...also operas seems to be more present in other cultures than what theaters are, and it overlaps less in function
the only critism i can think of is that ampitheaters, operas, and musuems are too isolated to western culture, but that is a general problem of civ3 that somebody else can fix!
quote:
1) Perhaps a better "human" unit such as modern infantry should replace old infantry at the appropiate point in the game. By the end of the game, the only units battling it out with each other are Modern Armour and Mech. Infantry. |
modern infantry is one of the new units that would fill a good niche, so i am going to add it and see what happens
hehe, though one of us needs to come up with some better names for these units
modern armies --> task force? or just army?
modern armor --> main battle tank?
modern infantry --> light infantry?
quote:
Maybe this is pushing it a bit, but if at all possible there should be more abilities that can only be carried out by "human units" such as military policing or attacking the final unit in a city's defence (troops always march into cities first in real life) as well as travelling in helicopters. |
it is impossible with the editor right now, though i would love to have the SMAC infantry gets +25% when attacking cities rule in civ3, especially if all special abilities like that carried over to armies
quote:
Hey Korn if you need to upgrade that old PC of yours let me know. My son and I have a business upgrading/repairing custom building PC's. Give you upgrade at cost. Just a thought! |
well i am getting ready to buy a new car, so a new computer is off till later in the year or early next year, plus the only upcoming game that i want to play that my system most likely won't be able to handle is WarCraft 3...hehe but my brother already has it preordered, so i can play it there, and by the time blizzard releases it i might have a new computer anyways
_____________________________
ok so here is the list of possible units to add to the blitz mod
*sloop, a warship that comes with astronomy that is weaker than a frigates and sinks in oceans
*special forces, a guerrilla unit (either invisable or hidden nationality) that cost alot of shields but no pop and is amphibious plus can airdrop and is primarily made to fight partisans
*commerce raider, a moder version of the privateer, historically something like one of the german pocket battleships
*modern infantry, a unit that falls between infantry and mech infantry and is draftable
*supersonic bomber, a moder version of the bomber that doesn't have stealth
*modern worker(engineer), the name says it all
___________________________________
these are more debatable ideas
*spy plane/AWACS, currently impossible to do properly with the editor, but a super recon plane
*assault carrier/amphibious task force, currently impossible to do properly with the editor, but something like the USS Tarawa, that carries helicopets, harriers, and lots of marines
*SAM, currently impossible to do properly with the editor, but a ground based unit that could move with modern forces to give them some airprotection
*attack helicoper, unsure about this one, but if i did implement it it would go with the assault carrier
please if you have any ideas for other units please suggest them
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11-03-2002 23:28
Of course my opinion, it just seems out of step to have only the "War Galley" until frigates. 
Peace
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