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Buck Birdseed
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Khoon Ki Pyasi Dayan (1988)
Nov 2000
time: 05:16
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I'm not sure where this story/bug/strategic question should go, so I'll put it in here. To me, it is clear evidence that the AI in the game cheats, so clear it almost borders on proof. But you be the judge.
I'll be the first to say that I'm not a brilliant Civ player- I could beat both Civ2 and SMAC on deity, but only with difficulty. After dominating my first game on Chieftan (as the Indians), I decided to try an ultramilitaristic strategy on a large map for my second game- enter the Aztecs (love those Jaggies!). I only picked 8 civs because I wanted space to explore.
So, I start the game, produce a bunch of Jaguar Warriors and explore about for a bit. After a few dozen turns, and with a fledging 3-town empire, I stumble upon the hapless americans some 15 squares to the south of me. After meeting, greeting and techschanging, I park four Jaggies outside his capital, capture it, two settlers and another city, and (stupidly enough) raze them to the ground. Unfortunately, his last city seems stronger, and my two remaining Jaggies are killed off by his only offensive unit, an Archer. Oh well. I decide to leave it for the moment. Note that his only contact with me has been through my jaguar warriors. He's never been near my territory to the best of my knowledge.
I now concentrate on exploration and building up my empire, increasing the number of cities to six. During one of these expansion phases, I send out what I thought was one of two spearmen from the capital (but which turned out to be the only one) to protect a new settlement from Malibu Barbie (set to Restless). So, my capital, pretty much at the center of my empire, is undefended- not a single unit is stationed in it. I'm not really paying attention at that moment, but it's important to understand for what happens next.
About a dozen or so turns later, an American unit, an Archer, appears on my southern border. My immediate thought is "stupid AI! I've got six well-defended cities up here!", but I send a jag warrior to intercept him in a few turns. No Workers down there, so I thought myself safe. What happens? He marches on my capital, which I thought was well-defended, and razes it to the ground.
Now, of course, this was entirely my fault. However, as well as showing my stupidity (leave undefended cities during wartime? What was I thinking?), I personally see it as evidence that the AI is cheating. What sensible player, unless he knows that he can do damage (which the AI supposedly didn't) sends up their single attacking unit to a much-superior civ? To me it seems as if it "knew" what was going on in a place it had never seen. Not even been near. I had basically uncovered and patrolled a radius of 5-10 squares from my civ's borders. Before this attack, the Americans had never been up there.
Is this an example of the AI cheating? I think it is. Concievably, he could have stumbled up randomly to exactly the right spot at exactly the right time. Somehow I doubt it.
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dr.charm
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I don't know. Once he was in range, obviously he would have known whether or not it was defended, the same way that you do about the enemy (when units are on top)
As to getting there at all, did you run into any other civs? Did you trade maps with them? Did you trade maps with the Americans?
Cheers,
Dr. Charm
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Sevorak
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It's not a cheat, per se. In all games that involve a map and units on it, be they RTS or TBS, it is well accepted that the AI knows the entire map and the location of every unit on it. It's the same thing that's behind the uselessness of submarines, since they're only undetectable to human players. It was this way in Civ II - so why complain about it in Civ III? The AI needs all the help it can get.
-Sev
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Compugasm 2
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quote:
Originally posted by KrazyHorse
... pretty sure I caught the Egyptians with more cities than was mathematically possible... Also, there have been instances of AI units "disappearing". |
I've noticed these things also. I play Monarch/China and I've built cities on food squares producing a new settlers. Then, build a city 3-6 squares away on another food resource. After building 5 cities, i quit and viewed the timeline. The Russians had 10-11 cities. This isn't possible and you can't rush build settlers early in the game.
I've noticed my own units disapearing. A few times I've sent a settler to automatically goto a food square and eventually realize he never got there. He could have been captured, but by the time i realize he never got there, its a total mystery.
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Compugasm 2
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Also, on the same map, different game, the Russian and English AI is so "good" at building wonders i don't even bother anymore. I can squeeze out the Pyramids as long as i start on the 20th turn. It must be completed by 1100BC before Japan finishes them, otherwise you've just bought a 300 shield granary.
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Sevorak
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Compugasm,
On Monarch it's well known the AI cheats outrageously to the tune of a -20% to the cost of anything it builds. Regent is the highest level where the AI doesn't cheat.
-Sev
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mharmless
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The AI does cheat on Monarch and above, no suprise there at all. It has been stated several times that the AI gets no such production advantages on Regent. If you see it cheating there (provable), then we want to hear about it.
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kamosa
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I've seen the AI march right past perfectly viable cities to attack, just so it can get to that one city in the back with it's original spearman. In the last game I played, I used this fact to my advantage. The Persians were marching threw English lands to get to my spearman defended city. I waited until the got just about to my border and then bribed the English to join my side.
Then I rallied several Samuri to the path they would need to take and ambushed the rest.
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Raleigh
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If I remember his transcript, he said AI's knowledge of your forces was a "gray" area where it sorta did and sorta didn't or did know but didn't always act on it, etc. I also believe he said, they would continue to tweak it in this gray area and that they never intend a black or white solution of whether it knows where you are or not.
From my own aztec/America experience (do they always start near each other?) I can tell you I found him first and he had no idea where I was. I kept invading him and he sent his military WAY in the wrong direction to find me. I hardly find this dispositive, but it indicates the computer might NOT know where I was at any given time. Maybe the computer's knowledge really isn't black or white?
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xane
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I'm clutching at straws here, but what is apparent is the Americans had little choice in your cities and little knowledge to formulate (via an algorithm) which was best to attack, it may have just chosen at random, or if anything, put a weight on the capital.
Lack of knowledge can sometimes be just as dangerous, you can't "bait" or "decoy" an AI in such cases.
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Yoleus
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quote:
Originally posted by CyberGnu
[...] He also claimed the the AI in CTP2 doesn't know where your units are, with the result of an overly passive AI, incapable of waging offesnive warfare.
I wish there was a middle ground [...] |
I did not know about CTP2, I agree it was awfully passive, and yes, please, definitely give me a middle grass. I mean, you can't hide!!! The AI should implement an info gathering routine of some kind. Otherwise if they start on a crappy island they will go for mapmaking and mindlessly run to the next best one instead of dying - as they should. Or WORSE, place cities in spots right over RESOURCES they are not supposed to see yet...
Apart from the "amphibious assault" capability, I think that no improvement has been made on the AI since CivII-Smac, just on the game rules. I would like some feedback on this issue.
I do not know if MoO3 will have the AI gathering info, but I hope so.
P.S. CyberGnu: "Gnu ex machina" means "Gnu OUT of the machine"... 
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zapperio
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Halifax, NS
Nov 2001
time: 05:16
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Here you go:
Soren Himself>>>
SITS>AI question - Does the AI cheat and know
where your weakly defended cities are?
Soren_Johnson_Firaxis> ...as for the AI, well, the AI does not interface with the map like the player does.
There were, however, some AI bugs in the original release in which the AI obviously was target the weakest
city. We are working on that... I just want to emphasize though that the AI is not a human. They don't have
a keyboard, mouse or monitor, so the answer to that question is never going to be "Yes" or "No." It will
always be somewhat grey
That makes it clear doesn't it? Oh, it doesn't? oh well...
Zap
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AHO
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Sorry but I just don't buy the argument that the American archers just accidently stumbled on to your one undefended city, nor do I buy the argument that the question of the AI's omniscience is a "grey" area. I went to war (to get the ONLY source of coal in my hemisphere on a "huge world" map--but that's for another thread) and instead of going for the heavily guarded, strategic frontline cities, they made a single-file bee-line to the other end of the continent to attack the only city in my 30+ empire that was only defended with an archer. As some of you have pointed out, there was NO WAY a normal opponent could have known that that was my weak point. The AI OBVIOUSLY sees all.
By the same token, this AI strategy/cheat, while annoying, is completely illogical and can be turned to your advantage. Here's my strategery: when you go to war, PURPOSEFULLY leave a city WAY on the other side of the empire lightly defended--if at all. Now you know where he's going, there'll be no mystery about where his troop strength will be amassed, and you can lay traps for his troops as they string across continent. The AI will send the entire kitchen sink straight towards that city in single-file like ants to a picnic, and you can pick them off one by one as they go by your choice of ambush positions. In the meantime, you can focus your attack on the ACTUAL cities of value while he sends his troop masses off on the wild goose chase. Take the cities you want, then, either wipe out the bee-line at your ambush sites, or take your newly acquired coal and sue for peace. I like to play with a "militaristic" civ like the Germans or Aztecs, which gives you more chance for battlefield promotions and, therefor, leaders who can rush-build your Wonders. Since you've ingeniously stretched his forces across hell's half-acre with your trap, you can keep up the hit and run attacks until you get the leaders you need--or until they get too close, whichever comes first!
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Raleigh
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I am not sure that is completely true (that the AI sees all, or goes after the weakest city like ants) because the Americans kept attacking my extremely heavily fortified large city right on their border, the way they should have been. I certainly had much more lightly defended cities further behind enemy lines, and some of them were also big and rich.
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20-11-2001 01:48
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