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PatRussell
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quote:
Originally posted by Ted Striker
Young baby lives to age 3. Doesn't have an understanding of the concept of Christ and so is never able to comprehend how to choose or not. So never makes the choice.
Oh sorry little baby, you are going to burn in hell.
Remote Amazon South American tribe is isolated from the entire world. Nearly impossible to reach them. They have never heard of Christ.
Oh sorry evil Amazonian primitive man, you are going to burn in hell too!
Gentle Hindu spends his life feeding the homeless, giving all of himself for the sake of others. The most honest, good, and spiritual man you will ever meet. Loves God and his fellow man with all of his heart and all of his soul.
Ohhh sorry mister nice Hindu, you didn't choose Christ either so you're going to burn in hell too! |
The issue is not how much good a person does or whether they live in the deepest jungles of the Amazon. Man is inherently sinful. God requires holiness and has provided a way for us to know and be with Him despite our filthiness. Any works done by mankind cannot save, no matter how good. I again suggest your read Romans. It is clearly spelled out that man has rejected God from the beginning. I would be less concerned about those you listed as examples and look after your own soul.
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"Be still, and know that I am God." PS 45:10 |
That should be Psalm 46:10. If one wants to know God, the best place to start would be the Bible (all of it, not select verses plucked out of context for the purpose of twisting them to say what is not meant to be said).
It is obvious this is going nowhere so I will end with this. If anyone who has been following this thread wishes to have a further discussion please PM me or send an email.
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tmarcl
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Baltimore, MD USA
Feb 2001
time: 00:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Ted Striker
Young baby lives to age 3. Doesn't have an understanding of the concept of Christ and so is never able to comprehend how to choose or not. So never makes the choice.
Oh sorry little baby, you are going to burn in hell.
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Most, if not all Christian sects disagree with this belief. Most of the Conservative Christian churches believe that a person is not held accountable to God until they reach a level of maturity-basically until they are able to tell the difference between right and wrong, and choose between them. Other sects practice infant baptism, to insure the baby's place in heaven. If there are any sects that preach a baby is screwed, tou
gh ****, I've never heard of them.
quote:
Remote Amazon South American tribe is isolated from the en
tire world. Nearly impossible to reach them. They have never heard of Christ.
Oh sorry evil Amazonian primitive man, you are going to burn in hell too!
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Believe it or not, only the most uneducated Christian believes this sort of thing. When I was studying theology, we were taught that those who never have the chance to choose Christ aren't condemned for that-they are judged by their heart. Even Paul in Romans says that the conscience is the guide of those who've never heard the gospel-it either condemns them or reassures them.
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Gentle Hindu spends his life feeding the homeless, giving all of himself for the sake of others. The most honest, good, and spiritual man you will ever meet. Loves God and his fellow man with all of his heart and all of his soul.
Ohhh sorry mister nice Hindu, you didn't choose Christ either so you're going to burn in hell too!
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Same as above, really. Believe it or not, Christianity is not the horrendous evil you seem to think it is. Now I'll grant you, there are those that call themselves Christian that are evil. Then again, there are evil Muslims as well (Bin Ladin, anyone?). But the core faith itself isn't evil-Love your neighbor, don't judge, forgive others, give to the poor, help those who can't help themselves, etc.
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Also tmarc,
Yes I do realize that only applies to catholics, but since there are many Catholics in this world, that's a huge chunk. And I am just concentrating on Muslims as an example. The Catholic document specifically also cites Buddhists and Hindus as well. Wiccans are just as welcome in my book and anyone else who seeks out God.
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Thank you for the clarification. 
Marc
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Ted Striker
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United States of America
Jan 1970
time: 21:16
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In my encounters with most Christians, they are more to give me what Pat Russel said. Choose Christ or burn in hell.
You are the first person that's had a softened stance on that whole, "choose Christ or burn in hell" thing. So in my experience, I've seen more to condemn than those that do not.
That's the whole purpose of missionaries, to send them out and make sure everybody knows, "save" them so they don't burn in hell.
I never said Christianity is evil. The way it's been misinterrpreted over the centuries, yes, that IS evil, and bigoted.
Let's look again at the Hindu example. Say he does come into contact with some Christians and they teach him about Christ and he is given the "choice." He does not choose Christ. (Christ does exist in the Hindu religion, actually, he doesn't have the same role as he does in Christianity).
Is he still condemned to burn?
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tmarcl
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Baltimore, MD USA
Feb 2001
time: 00:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Ted Striker
Let's look again at the Hindu example. Say he does come into contact with some Christians and they teach him about Christ and he is given the "choice." He does not choose Christ. (Christ does exist in the Hindu religion, actually, he doesn't have the same role as he does in Christianity).
Is he still condemned to burn? |
According to basic Christian belief, yes, unfortunately. Now, before someone jumps up (I'm not speaking to anyone in particular) and says, "So, if someone just asks him if he wants to be a Christian and he says 'no', he's screwed?", it's a little more involved than that. In order for a person to choose salvation, s/he would need to be convinced that there was in fact a need for it. Just going up to someone and saying 'you need Christ in your life or you'll go to hell' isn't going to condemn him/her if s/he tells you to bugger off. Frankly, the 'choose Christ or burn' method never appealed to me when I was a Christian-quite honestly, it didn't seem Christian.
Marc
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Chowlett
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of Candle'Bre
May 1999
time: 05:16
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Ok, here, at least in my belief, is how it works...
We have all sinned. I don't care how good someone has been, they have still sinned, just a tiny little bit, somewhere in their life. God, and by extension his domain of heaven, is perfect. He cannot abide imperfection to be with him, and therefore the tiniest bit of sin prevents us being with him. In sinning, we have effectively chosen not to be with God, it is our choice.
God, however, being a loving being, doesn't want us to be apart from him (which, incidentally, is the basic definition of hell - eternity without God. Heaven is eternity with God), but he cannot allow the sin to go unpunished. Our sin should cause us to die, that is the punishment. So God, unable to waive the punishment, says to humanity "I am willing to place the punishment onto something else that does not deserve it" In Old Testament times, this was the burnt offering, and explains why Old Testament Jews go to heaven.
However, even this isn't enough for mankind, and it continues to sin, drifting ever further from God. So God kills two birds with one stone, and decides to give humanity a role-model and a way out of sin in one convenient package - himself, made human. Enter Jesus. Jesus lives a perfect life, no sin anywhere. In doing so, he both shows man how to live and prepares himself to be the ultimate "burnt offering", as it were. He dies, although he was without sin, and in doing so can take the punishment due to all mankind.
Therefore, in order to gain eternal life, all you have to do is accept the sacrifice of Jesus for your sins. If you fail to do this, you have rejected God's offer of salvation and in effect chosen to spend eternity without him - so you will.
This provides answers to all of Ted Striker's examples earlier:
Infant: We go to hell because in our sin we choose to be without God. A child who does not know wrong from right cannot have made that choice. Therefore, probably saved (I don't know for sure, though)
Amazonian: As above, except here he is mature enough to know wrong from right (he has a conscience, and studies have, I believe [sorry, no source], shown that even primitive tribes with no outside contact have developed very similar moral codes to ours), so by sinning (which I assume he has) he has effectively chosen to be without God. Therefore, not saved.
Really good Hindu: Actually, the easiest to answer of the three. He has, I assume, heard the Christian message. Also, no matter how good he is, there is almost certainly at least one minor sin in his life. He'd be absolutely incredible if there wasn't. Therefore, he has rejected God's offer of removing that imperfection, and chosen to be without him for eternity. Really sorry about this, but he's not saved.
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PatRussell
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quote:
Originally posted by Chowlett
Ok, here, at least in my belief, is how it works...
We have all sinned. I don't care how good someone has been, they have still sinned, just a tiny little bit, somewhere in their life. God, and by extension his domain of heaven, is perfect. He cannot abide imperfection to be with him, and therefore the tiniest bit of sin prevents us being with him. In sinning, we have effectively chosen not to be with God, it is our choice.
God, however, being a loving being, doesn't want us to be apart from him (which, incidentally, is the basic definition of hell - eternity without God. Heaven is eternity with God), but he cannot allow the sin to go unpunished. Our sin should cause us to die, that is the punishment. So God, unable to waive the punishment, says to humanity "I am willing to place the punishment onto something else that does not deserve it" In Old Testament times, this was the burnt offering, and explains why Old Testament Jews go to heaven.
However, even this isn't enough for mankind, and it continues to sin, drifting ever further from God. So God kills two birds with one stone, and decides to give humanity a role-model and a way out of sin in one convenient package - himself, made human. Enter Jesus. Jesus lives a perfect life, no sin anywhere. In doing so, he both shows man how to live and prepares himself to be the ultimate "burnt offering", as it were. He dies, although he was without sin, and in doing so can take the punishment due to all mankind.
Therefore, in order to gain eternal life, all you have to do is accept the sacrifice of Jesus for your sins. If you fail to do this, you have rejected God's offer of salvation and in effect chosen to spend eternity without him - so you will.
This provides answers to all of Ted Striker's examples earlier:
Infant: We go to hell because in our sin we choose to be without God. A child who does not know wrong from right cannot have made that choice. Therefore, probably saved (I don't know for sure, though)
Amazonian: As above, except here he is mature enough to know wrong from right (he has a conscience, and studies have, I believe [sorry, no source], shown that even primitive tribes with no outside contact have developed very similar moral codes to ours), so by sinning (which I assume he has) he has effectively chosen to be without God. Therefore, not saved.
Really good Hindu: Actually, the easiest to answer of the three. He has, I assume, heard the Christian message. Also, no matter how good he is, there is almost certainly at least one minor sin in his life. He'd be absolutely incredible if there wasn't. Therefore, he has rejected God's offer of removing that imperfection, and chosen to be without him for eternity. Really sorry about this, but he's not saved. |
I would agree 100% with this.
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tmarcl
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Baltimore, MD USA
Feb 2001
time: 00:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Ted Striker
Good findings Urban.
I agree in many cases, the missionaries condemn people to hell! If they had never known about the "Good News," and still were good people, they would be saved. But noooo the missionaries teach them about the "choice" and therefore NOW they have to make it or go to hell. That's BS.
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No, not by his works, by his heart. How to explain? Ok. The way it was explained to me was that if a person realizes that 1)S/he doesn't live up to God's (the gods/the goddess, etc) expectations, and 2)That they can't do that without the help of their deity, and 3)Has faith that they are justified by the Deity's mercy (as opposed to their own efforts), then they will be saved even if they never heard of Jesus Christ.
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So say some guy spends his life raping children, killing people, and eating their bodies. Just at the last second before they send him to the chair, he takes an oath to Christ. He's saved.
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Not exactly. Anyone can say, "Oh, I repent. I'll be good from now on." Witness all the atrocities committed in the name of Christ. If those people had truly repented, they would not have done the things they did. Do you honestly believe Torquemada is going to heaven?
It's not enough that a person just says "I'm sorry." They need to repent. They need to look at the things that they did and recognize that they were in fact sins, and that they deserve the wrath of God for them. Then they need to make a sincere committment to no longer do those things, and make an effort to obey the laws of God.
The rapist in your example wouldn't be going to heaven if all he said was, "Oh, sorry, didn't mean it," and yet still hadn't repented of his deeds. The "I'm sorry" would have been just words, and meaningless. He'd still be judged by God and sent to the lake of fire.
On the other hand, if that rapist looked at the things he had done, realized that what he had done was sinful, and agreed that he did in fact deserve God's wrath, and sincerely repented, yes, he would still go to heaven.
quote:
Another guy spends his life in servitude of others. He is the most unselfish person on earth. Others are fed and clothed and are saved from death because of this man. He is taught the "choice" but doesn't make the conversion. HE goes to hell.
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Again, where is his heart? Theoretically, if he's doing them because of a dependence on his Deity's mercy (ie, read paragraph one-I don't want this to be an insanely long post), he likely would receive the message of Christ and except it. Note, that's theoretically. If he's doing the deeds because he believes he's a good person, and that they bring him honor, then he won't receive the message.
In Christianity, God looks at the heart, and at the intent behind the deeds, not the deeds themselves.
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Would you guys be Christians if it weren't for the fear of eternal damnation? I doubt it.
It's a great selling point though. Even if it makes no sense. |
Honestly? I was. I will admit becoming a Christian out of fear of eternal damnation. Then again, I wasn't exactly being a good person anyway, so I was likely going to be damned regardless of whether I heard the message or not. Once in, however, I didn't fear God-I didn't need to. I believed God had granted me mercy, and that it was now up to me to live my life the best I could. I knew that if I screwed up, God would still forgive me so long as I was sincerely making the attempt to live by God's laws.
I stopped being a Christian simply because I couldn't see a loving *human* parent ever being so angry with his children that he wouldn't speak to them except through an intermediary, let alone a perfect God. I stopped being a Christian before I stopped being a theist. It appeared to me that if something had created the universe, it was no longer taking an active interest in it's creation, and so likely didn't want worship, let alone deserve it.
I still agree with the basic message of Christianity, and try to live by most of it's principles (those that make sense). I do my best to love my neighbor and help those who cannot help themselves. Beyond that, there isn't much I believe is necessary.
Marc
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Chowlett
Ok, here, at least in my belief, is how it works...
We have all sinned. I don't care how good someone has been, they have still sinned, just a tiny little bit, somewhere in their life. God, and by extension his domain of heaven, is perfect. He cannot abide imperfection to be with him, and therefore the tiniest bit of sin prevents us being with him. In sinning, we have effectively chosen not to be with God, it is our choice.
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What makes you think that we instantly become perfect and live with God after this life? I believe perfection takes a very long time to attain and that this life is just the beginning. We have a lot to learn before we reach perfection.
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tmarcl
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Baltimore, MD USA
Feb 2001
time: 00:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Hm.
Two points:
1. If that's the case why didn't/don't missionaries leave these people alone?
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I'm going to make a wild assumption and say that 'Because the bible says so' isn't going to fly here.  Most missionary groups these days don't use the old method of going into the wilderness and telling the savages that they're screwed unless they convert (probably because they realized the same thing you did-if these 'savages' are living the way God wants, there's no reason to warn them). Today, most missionary groups (at least the ones that I knew of) go out and perform good works. The Mercy Ships program is an excellent example. People volunteer on these ships and bring free food, medical care, clothing, etc. to Third World countries. The strategy is, rather than tell people 'if you want the goods, listen to the message (though I'm sure some do use that strategy), they wait until a person asks 'Why are you doing this?' and respond with a) The directive by Christ to care for the sick, naked, etc. and b) The gospel message.
Before someone asks 'So, why don't they do that in the US/Western Europe,' realize that it's extremely unlikely (read, very near impossible) that there is a person in the US or Western Europe that *doesn't* know who Jesus is. Therefore, if you're going about life as a non-Christian, you're in trouble because you know better (supposedly).
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2. What if that person's deity is supposedly expecting something very differently from their followers? For example, this deity expects his followers to be self-reliant?
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Self-reliant how? That they make it to heaven by their own efforts? Many religions do teach that a person's deeds are weighed when s/he dies. If the good outweighs the bad, they go to Paradise. If not, they go to wherever else. However, the reasoning is that this is not a good system, and that most intelligent people (including the savages) will realize that a 'works' system doesn't work. (What exactly is a good/evil deed? How many good deeds have I done? How many evil ones? Am I really sure that I'm going to Paradise?) Trusting in the Deity's mercy (depending on the deity) is a more logical alternative (As long as I'm doing my best and *intend* to do good, the Deity will be merciful.), and a spiritual people will figure that out.
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It seems though that the Christians have departed en masse.  |
Huh, and I thought Catholics weren't going to be Raptured.
Marc
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Chowlett
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of Candle'Bre
May 1999
time: 05:16
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quote:
Originally posted by PatRussell
I would agree 100% with this. |
Thanks for the backup.
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What makes you think that we instantly become perfect and live with God after this life? I believe perfection takes a very long time to attain and that this life is just the beginning. We have a lot to learn before we reach perfection. |
Because at the point we die corporeally, our sin is effectively wiped out. The punishment is paid by Christ, and, as if an accountant tore out each debt in hiss book as it was paid, it doesn't exist anymore. Hence we are perfect. The standard English translation of Jesus's last words (which are usually rendered as "It is Finished") is actually not a good translation. Far closer to the original Hebrew/Latin text is "It has been paid in full" - not that he completed what he came to do, but that he has completely paid the price for what we've done.
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Would you guys be Christians if it weren't for the fear of eternal damnation? I doubt it. |
Err, yes actually. Until quite recently, the thought of eternal damnation didn't even cross my mind, to be honest. However, it's nice to have God there. I treat him as a friend, because he is. An incredibly powerful friend, but a friend none the less. For some reason, there's something intensely comforting about looking for my keys while going, quite conversationally, "Ok, so where are my keys? Give me a hand, will you God? I've got to be out the house in a minute or two, and I haven't a clue where they are. I'm sure I put them down there yesterday... Oh, there they are! Thanks!"
Seriously though, I am quite convinced that he's very powerful. The most recent example is too long to recount, but boils down to this. A friend of a good(ish) friend of mine injured their back quite seriously in a rowing accident the other day (the oar cought on a rock, pushed the rower back in their seat, which is of course completely fixed. Back bent over far too far to be natural, rower in a lot of pain and nearly unable to walk). My friend was naturally a little distraught about this, particularly as she considered it her fault (she was coxing) and told me what had happened. I took it to God, and prayed that a) both of them would be calmed and looked after, and that b) the rower would be healed. This was on Friday. On Monday, when I saw my friend again, I discovered that she was a whole lot happier, her usual bouncy self again; that she had coxed again, successfully, after having declared on Friday that she couldn't possibly cox again, it'd be too scary and frightening, and she's be bound to do the same again; and the injured rower had rowed again that morning, not much the worse for wear, and as happy as ever. I'm convinced that's not just coincidence. I realise I can't convince you, but it does for me...
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It seems though that the Christians have departed en masse. |
No, it's just that some of us had our PSU's blow up. Pretty much literally.
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22-11-2001 17:00
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