20-11-2001 09:23									#1
	Bush Cancels trip to Pluto. Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Apparently Bush has canceled plans to send a mission to Pluto - and it's likely they'll do the same to the Europa mission. (which is really unfortunate, since it is probably the best hope for finding alien life in our solar system)


My source is from a science news show on the discovery channel, it's at the begining of this segment.

	20-11-2001 09:27									#2
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Was this to be anything other than a feel good mission with little practical scientific value?

	20-11-2001 09:31									#3
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It depends on the science you value.

	20-11-2001 09:36									#4
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk It depends on the science you value.

Arising from space travel? That would be the applied sciences. Finding seaweed on a Jovian moon doesn't count as that.

	20-11-2001 09:36									#5
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You can never go wrong with space exploration.


But you can find more information about the missions here:

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/europaorbiter/

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/ice_fire/pkexprss.htm

	20-11-2001 09:38									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld You can never go wrong with space exploration.

Get Canada to fund it.

	20-11-2001 09:43									#7
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Shame - he had such a good rapport with the folks on Pluto.

	20-11-2001 09:45									#8
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Get Canada to fund it.

I'll bring it up in parliament tommorow.

	20-11-2001 09:52									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld I'll bring it up in parliament tommorow.

What can I tell you, Osweld? We've decided to adjust our science rate down a bit and from all accounts go for either the diplomatic (the UN wonder should help us out in that regard) or the domination victory.

	20-11-2001 10:06									#10
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc What can I tell you, Osweld? We've decided to adjust our science rate down a bit and from all accounts go for either the diplomatic (the UN wonder should help us out in that regard) or the domination victory.

Can someone tell me why the US should pay for the exploration of space, especially we actually found something worth having the rest of the world would have a hissy fit if we didn't share. I'm with Dino, if its so damn important to the future of humanity lets spend some Canadian dollars on it.

	20-11-2001 10:36									#11
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Go look at NASA's budget. Ask them how much they paid for the robotics techs used on the Shuttle which were developed up here. That's the reason we get to send an astronaut up every couple of years.

Dinodoc:

	20-11-2001 10:51									#12
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Go buy a rocket and put a robot on it, yourselves. It's not that hard. Seriously. Sheesh.

	20-11-2001 10:55									#13
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Go look at NASA's budget. Ask them how much they paid for the robotics techs used on the Shuttle which were developed up here. That's the reason we get to send an astronaut up every couple of years. Dinodoc:

Well that way they can call it an "international effort".

edit: As a matter of fact, I heard that NASA was looking for Mexican robotics techs or Taiwanese robotics techs in a bid to keep the international rating but fit in an ever shrinking budget.

	20-11-2001 10:59									#14
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quote: Originally posted by GP Go buy a rocket and put a robot on it, yourselves. It's not that hard. Seriously. Sheesh.

I didn't say we could run a space program ourselves or that we should get to decide priorities for NASA. I know who's puttin' up most of the dough, GP. Most, not all.

	20-11-2001 11:18									#15
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I didn't say we could run a space program ourselves or that we should get to decide priorities for NASA. I know who's puttin' up most of the dough, GP. Most, not all.

We're not talking about Star Wars or GPS or a manned mission to Mars. Or sending men back to the Moon. You can buy a rocket or pay someone to launch for you. The French or the Chinese will do it for you. Heck, so will we.

	20-11-2001 11:46									#16
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quote: You can never go wrong with space exploration

Space exploration is a great example of what happens when someone else gets to spend your money! We (and I mean politicians who stole the money from other people) spent untold billions so one guy could hit a golf ball on the moon and a few other guys could bring back some ROCKS! Reminds me of Charlie Brown on Halloween

On a related matter, NASA spent a few hundred million or so trying to come up with a pen that would write upside down, in zero gravity, and under water (I guess the astronaut who splashed down in a lake, doh, could write his memoir). The Russians used pencils!!!

	20-11-2001 13:34									#17
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quote: Originally posted by GP We're not talking about Star Wars or GPS or a manned mission to Mars. Or sending men back to the Moon. You can buy a rocket or pay someone to launch for you. The French or the Chinese will do it for you. Heck, so will we.

You were serious? That would imply that the Ottawan politicians displayed some independence of thought on hi-tech issues. Absolutely unfounded assumption. The mindset has always (well, since ~1960) been to "carve out a niche" instead of actually attempting solo stuff. A lot of innovative projects died horrible deaths this way, to no great dissatisfaction (sorry to be trite) of Washington. The US would rather not have its allies duplicating its own efforts (thereby wasting resources), and Canada doesn't want to look ridiculous by getting hurt playing in the games of the big boys. We're a flea in bed with an elephant, and as a result, the first thought anyone has about anything is "what will the neighbours think?"

A case in point is the Canadian Space Agency. Until the early 70s we were developing independent launch capabilities. People wondered what the point was of doing something the Americans could already do better. Instead, cooperate with Washington and make sure everybody knew we could do 1 thing better than everybody else.

	20-11-2001 13:40									#18
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Arising from space travel? That would be the applied sciences. Finding seaweed on a Jovian moon doesn't count as that.

That's a mighty narrow POV; why do you think that the applied sciences are the only ones that should benefit from space flight?

	20-11-2001 14:47									#19
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk That's a mighty narrow POV; why do you think that the applied sciences are the only ones that should benefit from space flight?

So who does benefit? Only NASA and their technicians - that's who! No-one else.

I often see people argue that there are lots of spin offs to everyday life (like Teflon ). This is true but these things can be developed by spending the money on fundamental science research. You will still get the spin offs but you will be doing something useful as a main goal too!

	20-11-2001 15:00									#20
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I think many people would benefit from "landing on the moon Europa"

Geologists - what kind of geology does water world exhibit
Chemists - what is the chemical composition of this celestial body, and how can we make use of it
Biologists - what kind of amino acids exhibit in this environment
You and me - hopefully nice pictures!
And many others - more than I can think of right now.

But maybe it's just not the right time to send probes around the solar system, there are more important matters to deal with. You know what they are, so don't ask.

	20-11-2001 15:06									#21
	Re: Bush Cancels trip to Pluto. Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Osweld Apparently Bush has canceled plans to send a mission to Pluto - and it's likely they'll do the same to the Europa mission. (which is really unfortunate, since it is probably the best hope for finding alien life in our solar system)...

IMO the "trip" to Europa would be very interesting, it's a very strange world. I'm not so thrilled about the Pluto-mission. Though not so much is known about Pluto, I currently think there is not so much worth knowing about it. Emphasis on the word currently.

	20-11-2001 15:18									#22
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Currently. It's a key word. There have been many advances in science that had no practical application until decades, perhaps centuries later.

The Europa mission is interesting for everything you've listed, and more; the Pluto mission is interesting because of the insights it may provide on Kuiper Belt objects--which almost certainly have future economic value. Both missions can serve as test beds for new hardware, which may be used in future missions of larger scope.

There will always be 'higher priority' concerns, whether to many or a few; the question is, can we afford to spend a tiny fraction of our bounty on such a small thing as furthering our basic understanding of the universe. I say yes.

	20-11-2001 15:23									#23
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Remember a big blackout that pretty much had most of eastern Canada out of power a few years ago? That was a sun storm. The storm from the sun went into Canada's electric grid and overloaded it.

It was so strong, it was able to power many appliances in homes where the power was out!

So the only way to REALLY find out what's going on is to send satellites out to explore and monitor it.

What about other various storms that can and HAVE wrecked satellites? We just supposed to wait around and let them get smashed up?

What does this have to do with Pluto? The point is, the more information the better.

	20-11-2001 18:26									#24
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Ok, let me clarify this matter. The Pluto-Kuiper Express mission had indeed been canceled by Bush. However, during its review of NASA budget, the Congress revived the mission and provided the neccessary funding to keep it on track. Space enthusiasts need not despair - the mission is back on schedule and fully funded again.

	20-11-2001 18:55									#25
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That's a shame. The USA would be far better off if Bush went on an official visit to Pluto.

(Well, that's how the title reads anyway. )

	20-11-2001 19:05									#26
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Wouldnt it be nice if the world could spend all its money on science rather than military? Imagine what could have been discovered already

	20-11-2001 19:05									#27
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk That's a mighty narrow POV; why do you think that the applied sciences are the only ones that should benefit from space flight?

You're actually asking me why I think that something useful should arise from the government spending millions of dollars of my money. Do I understand you correctly?

	20-11-2001 19:12									#28
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quote: Originally posted by drake Wouldnt it be nice if the world could spend all its money on science rather than military? Imagine what could have been discovered already

Yeah. Humans are resourceful: why spend time and money to something good, when you can use time and money to prevent others to use their time and money in something good.

And if the oil companies were not so greedy, we would be driving cars that run with water (using the hydrogen in it as a fuel).

	20-11-2001 20:08									#29
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse You were serious? That would imply that the Ottawan politicians displayed some independence of thought on hi-tech issues. Absolutely unfounded assumption. The mindset has always (well, since ~1960) been to "carve out a niche" instead of actually attempting solo stuff. A lot of innovative projects died horrible deaths this way, to no great dissatisfaction (sorry to be trite) of Washington. The US would rather not have its allies duplicating its own efforts (thereby wasting resources), and Canada doesn't want to look ridiculous by getting hurt playing in the games of the big boys. We're a flea in bed with an elephant, and as a result, the first thought anyone has about anything is "what will the neighbours think?" A case in point is the Canadian Space Agency. Until the early 70s we were developing independent launch capabilities. People wondered what the point was of doing something the Americans could already do better. Instead, cooperate with Washington and make sure everybody knew we could do 1 thing better than everybody else.

You don't need to have independent launch capability. You can buy it on the open market.

	20-11-2001 20:36									#30
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Osweld I wouldnt be too worried about Space knwledge slowdown.

Cassini is approaching Saturns moon Titan in a few years and will send the probe to check out what appears to be an Ocean covering the surface. Camera...Sub like Probe....


**** i think when it reaches Titan there will be a wealth of information to find.

I agree...funding a far flung space mission is not America's top priority.


Question:

The Euro's and Japs have a space agency. Why the hell do you guys like chasing Comet's so much. Japs have sent about 6 probes to comets all have been destroyed.