20-11-2001 22:44									#31
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quote: Originally posted by drake Wouldnt it be nice if the world could spend all its money on science rather than military? Imagine what could have been discovered already

Are you saying that all that money the DoD spends on new Technologies is somehow..worthless?

May I remind you that Boosters have their orgins in ICBM's?

That the Internet has it's orgins in Military $$?

The SUV?

	20-11-2001 22:57									#32
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LS,

Those are tangential benefits of military development. The good reason to fund them is because they are necessary for defense not for the tangential benefits.

If you just want scientific discoveries and applied science, you're better off funding it directly, rather than as part of development.

	20-11-2001 23:13									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker On a related matter, NASA spent a few hundred million or so trying to come up with a pen that would write upside down, in zero gravity, and under water (I guess the astronaut who splashed down in a lake, doh, could write his memoir). The Russians used pencils!!!

Actually, it was one million. The result was the Fisher space pen, of which I have several. They're great for taking field notes under shitty conditions, and will write at any angle on virtually any surface. They're pretty good scuba diving, too.

The spec temperature range was pretty extreme, too. The reason for writing underwater was two-fold. One, if you have power failures or powerdowns for any reason, every surface in the spacecraft gets a hell of a lot of condensation, and in a micrograv environement, it just sits there, developing into little beads as a function of surface tension. The other is that the "ink" (it's something different chemically), if it's waterproof, will not have small particles shear and wear off over time, since it has much higher viscosity and adhesion than normal inks.

The Russians used pencils, yes. And they got graphite dust and pencil shavings in their electronics, too, which was the main reason for development of the pen.

	20-11-2001 23:15									#34
	Re: I'd rather mine an NEA than go to Pluto Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc You're actually asking me why I think that something useful should arise from the government spending millions of dollars of my money. Do I understand you correctly?

You pay that much in taxes?

	20-11-2001 23:17									#35
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quote: Originally posted by GP LS, Those are tangential benefits of military development. The good reason to fund them is because they are necessary for defense not for the tangential benefits. If you just want scientific discoveries and applied science, you're better off funding it directly, rather than as part of development.

Absolutely, GP, I think it is a travesty on how far and fast our national lab system has gone during the past decade. The Clinton-Gore administration, despite their enviromental claims, issued cuts on the Fusion project, even though we've nearly reached the break-even point.

	20-11-2001 23:20									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh So who does benefit? Only NASA and their technicians - that's who! No-one else. I often see people argue that there are lots of spin offs to everyday life (like Teflon ). This is true but these things can be developed by spending the money on fundamental science research. You will still get the spin offs but you will be doing something useful as a main goal too!

Yes, DESY and CERN have produced loads of practical applications.

Since you're a theoretical type, not an applied type, your POV amounts to little more than the traditional infighting of "fund US, not THEM, we're doing something more useful!"

Personally, I think all science funding, both government and private, should be expanded significantly, but I don't think it does much for science overall to have its practitioners infighting for spaces at the public funding trough.

	20-11-2001 23:49									#37
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Yes, DESY and CERN have produced loads of practical applications. Since you're a theoretical type, not an applied type, your POV amounts to little more than the traditional infighting of "fund US, not THEM, we're doing something more useful!" Personally, I think all science funding, both government and private, should be expanded significantly, but I don't think it does much for science overall to have its practitioners infighting for spaces at the public funding trough.

I pretty much agree with what you say here. I too support increased funding for all scientific disciplines (other than the ISS, but than again - that's hardly science ). However, I must point out that there have been practical applications from CERN. Some were merely spinoffs (eg. the structure of the internet), but some were the results of the research itself (eg. a novel radiation teraphy for cancer).

	21-11-2001 00:09									#38
	Re: Re: I'd rather mine an NEA than go to Pluto Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat You pay that much in taxes?

I think Dino's first name is Bill. He has had some trouble with the government lately..

	21-11-2001 00:56									#39
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quote: Bush Cancels trip to Pluto.

G W was so looking forward to that Disney trip too.

Maybe Mickey and Pluto can visit him soon though.

quote: The Euro's and Japs have a space agency. Why the hell do you guys like chasing Comet's so much. Japs have sent about 6 probes to comets all have been destroyed.

All satellites are destroyed or cease to function eventually, so why not go down in a blaze of glory, if it fails there is no great loss, if it succeeds then it is extremely useful.( Why did NASA crash a satellite into Mars for? Oh wait that was a calculation error.)

Seriously though more often these suicide/kamikaze missions are pretty much complete before the final moment comes, and the main goal is not to land a satellite on a comet.

	21-11-2001 01:12									#40
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat You pay that much in taxes?

Do you think I need a better CPA?

	21-11-2001 02:00									#41
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With the current birth/death rates, the mass of human flesh will equal the mass of the earth in a few hundred years. in 2000 years, it will equal the mass of the known universe. We're going to be wishing we hadn't scimped on space research before too long, especially since people are living longer and longer all the time, and the birth rate isn't slowing...

*source: Isaac Asimov's Book of Facts.

	21-11-2001 02:14									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch [q] All satellites are destroyed or cease to function eventually, so why not go down in a blaze of glory, if it fails there is no great loss, if it succeeds then it is extremely useful.( Why did NASA crash a satellite into Mars for? Oh wait that was a calculation error.)

Oh c'mon we all know the martians shot it down

	21-11-2001 02:17									#43
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quote: All satellites are destroyed or cease to function eventually, so why not go down in a blaze of glory,

Pioneer is still sending a signal once every month. Its way.....way beyond pluto.

	21-11-2001 02:41									#44
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Bugger, because I have heard that the trip is one-way only

	21-11-2001 02:41									#45
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Why should we waste money on Osweld's sick scientific tastes? Maybe a bored country with science fanatics like Canada should fund space exploration. We gotta spend on military here. And why can Faded glory use racial slurs but no one else?

	21-11-2001 02:45									#46
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"The SUV?"

-The world would be a far better place without it.

"Pioneer is still sending a signal once every month. Its way.....way beyond pluto."

-Yes, but are we getting anything from it? Not really. I'm all for a probe or two in deep space just to see how long we can keep track of them, but this is no more useful than crashing into a comet.

	21-11-2001 02:47									#47
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"Why should we waste money on Osweld's sick scientific tastes? Maybe a bored country with science fanatics like Canada should fund space exploration. We gotta spend on military here. And why can Faded glory use racial slurs but no one else?"

-I see you would preffer going back to the dark ages then. All military spending, none of that silly learning stuff. Besides, NASA's budget couldn't buy too many more $900 hammers and $600 toilet seats.

	21-11-2001 02:50									#48
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Yes, but voyager has been very, very useful in the past and given us a great deal of info.

Well I am keen on seeing more science spending, not such fruitless pursuits as military spending...

	21-11-2001 02:56									#49
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I have a feeling most right-wingers wouldn't like what I would do to the defense budget if i could

	21-11-2001 02:58									#50
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Absolutely no point in saying that. I already know what you'd know, of course I don't like it, but I don't ponder on it. You're too radical and weak to ever be in any power dealing with military.

	21-11-2001 03:05									#51
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Pioneer is still sending a signal once every month. Its way.....way beyond pluto.

IIRC

Pioneer 10's transmitter died in 1998.
Pioneer 11's transmiter died in 1995.

Guess it didn't last forever either.

	21-11-2001 03:25									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar Absolutely, GP, I think it is a travesty on how far and fast our national lab system has gone during the past decade. The Clinton-Gore administration, despite their enviromental claims, issued cuts on the Fusion project, even though we've nearly reached the break-even point.

I remember hearing this kinda crap when I was your age...

	21-11-2001 03:26									#53
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It'll come eventually.

	21-11-2001 03:28									#54
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My memory scares me at times

http://sse.jpl.nasa.gov/missions/sa...ns/sat-p11.html

quote: Launch Date: 05-Apr-1973 Saturn flyby: 01-Sep-1979 End of Mission: 30-Sep-1995

quote: The power source for the spacecraft was exhausted in 1995, so it can no longer be commanded.

http://sse.jpl.nasa.gov/missions/ju...ns/jup-p10.html

quote: Launch Date: 02-Mar-1972 Jupiter Encounter Date: 03-Dec-1973 End of Mission: 31-Mar-1997

quote: it will take another 2 million years for Pioneer 10 to reach the first star on its trajectory

quote: Its way.....way beyond pluto

Way, way beyond Pluto is a relative phrase. In cosmic terms it hasn't pulled out the driveway.

	21-11-2001 03:31									#55
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It's gonna be as far as the Centaurus system in as little as ~41000 years.

	21-11-2001 03:38									#56
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat The result was the Fisher space pen, of which I have several. They're great for taking field notes under shitty conditions, and will write at any angle on virtually any surface. They're pretty good scuba diving, too.

They're part of the plebe issue at USNA...

	21-11-2001 03:38									#57
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Do you think I need a better CPA?

Maybe you'd be able to afford MP, then...

	21-11-2001 03:40									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Victor Galis I have a feeling most right-wingers wouldn't like what I would do to the defense budget if i could

We don't care what you do with your country's defense budget.

	21-11-2001 03:44									#59
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Oh im sorry crunch. I was under the impression it was still beaming.....


Ya its out there...bu tyour right. Only a few thousand years and we will be in alpha centaurii


Btw didnt we put an engravement message inside for extra terreriastials? Engraving in Hyroglyphics who we were..we come in peace.if we were no longer on earth we probably wiped each other out with Nukes.

	21-11-2001 03:44									#60
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse It's gonna be as far as the Centaurus system in as little as ~41000 years.

Yep, as far as, but its not headed in the direction of the Centaurus system.