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KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
King
Macedonia
May 2001
time: 00:16
  Old Post 23-11-2001 10:15 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by GP
I don't see why the fundamental thrust equations make a launch rocket require multiple stages. Essentially the lighter you can make the fuel container, the less you need multiple stages. The issue here is fuel container weight, no?


Right. The fuel mass itself is what causes the the diminishing returns of additional fuel.

TCO is offline TCO
Emperor
Richmond, VA
Jan 1970
time: 00:16
  Old Post 23-11-2001 10:34
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Comments on the Orion document?

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
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Macedonia
May 2001
time: 00:16
  Old Post 23-11-2001 10:55 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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Just read it. I don't know; first off, I have no idea how you'd build a 0.1 kT fission bomb. Secondly, I'm really surprised the pusher platewould withstand hundreds of detonations of size ~20 kT. Third, I wouldn't advocate launching a rocket using nuke explosions; this sounds sort of wacko. Maybe a few flights would be okay using this method, but it doesn't sound like a long term solution. Fourth, given that the chances of a catastrophic failure of any launch vehicle in existence is ~1/50, it seems sort of crazy to put...umm...~500 lbs of fissile material on board such a lunch vehicle. I really don't know what the impact would be on Earth. Would the module containing the bombs be left intact or scattered for a couple of thousand miles along its flight path?

That being said, it's worthy of furthe study at least. Dyson is sort of known as an incurable blue-sky optimist isn't he?

Ramo is offline Ramo
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Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:16
  Old Post 23-11-2001 10:56 Visit Ramo's homepage!
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quote:
If the photon is absorbed rather than reflected all the energy is maintained on the craft, as well as imparting an impulse. If you have a solar cell absorbing the laser for powering the craft then you kill two birds with one stone. You power the craft and you propel the craft.


Ermmm.. how does that work? This kind of engine can't be too accurate (or effective). I suppose you need some trippy mirror design..

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
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Macedonia
May 2001
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  Old Post 23-11-2001 10:59 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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Why not accurate? Thrust from this sort of thing is really low, though. Really low.

The have some really light reflective materials around. Stuff that will float on the air currents in a room.

Ramo is offline Ramo
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Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:16
  Old Post 23-11-2001 11:05 Visit Ramo's homepage!
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Like what?

I was thinking that the impuse on the reflective materials would defeat the purpose of the impulse on the solar cell.

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
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Macedonia
May 2001
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  Old Post 23-11-2001 11:07 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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Can't remember whast materials they were. Something's telling me they're really thin aluminum alloy sheets.

What do you mean by your second comment?

Ramo is offline Ramo
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Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:16
  Old Post 23-11-2001 11:15 Visit Ramo's homepage!
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Well, you have these changes in momentum due to impulses on a certain area of the solar cell (I assume basically the entire surface of the shuttle would be solar cells), as well as the impulse on these aluminum alloy sheets. Seems like there would always be a significant error...

Hmmm.. I suppose it might work, but it would be one helluvan engineering problem.

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
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Macedonia
May 2001
time: 00:16
  Old Post 23-11-2001 11:25 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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I think you have a central section "painted black" with solar cells to get power+half thrust (thrust in direction of photon, no "tacking" possible) surrounded by mirror which gets full thrust (depending on which direction you want to tack in, thrust normal to surface of mirror).

We're thinking BIG. Square kilometers of sail.

Rogan Josh is offline Rogan Josh
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Jan 1970
time: 06:16
  Old Post 23-11-2001 15:36
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To shift topic a little it, I think it is all a matter of budget. I mean, I am sure we would all like to see enough money going to a complete and comprehensive Space Program, but since the US govt has a very limited budget for science spending what is it instead of?

For example, you may recall that the SSC (Superconducting Super-Collider) was being built in Texas -- they had dug 100's of miles of tunnel for it and everything -- when it was canceled for political reasons. This project would have provided as many spin-offs as any NASA project (remember one of the spin-offs of LEP in Geneva, was the WWW), but even more importantly it would have switched on last February. So now we would have probed energy scales up to 40 TeV ( ) and would know why particles have masses, what symetries the laws of the Universe has, whether or not there are large extra-dimensions in our universe, and have hints towards Grand Unified Theories, String Theories and M-Theories.

So if you are really looking to back these NASA projects, ask first what you are throwing away to provide for them.

Dauphin is offline Dauphin
Emperor
Caught in a tuna net
Jan 1970
time: 05:16
  Old Post 23-11-2001 16:39
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quote:
Plus, this could just be taken as ***-for-tat


Thats the problem, we both have egos. Obviously I scored a hit, else KH wouldn't have been compelled to counter

On the technical matter:

You have to pitch at the right level.

Make it complicated and technical and some people look .

Make it nice and simple and some people will " That's not technically correct!"

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
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Macedonia
May 2001
time: 00:16
  Old Post 23-11-2001 17:22 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Big Crunch
quote:
Plus, this could just be taken as ***-for-tat


Thats the problem, we both have egos. Obviously I scored a hit, else KH wouldn't have been compelled to counter


Actually, you didn't. Your assignment now is to provide a semantic analysis of the phrase "as far as", noting most importantly whether this phrase gives any indication to direction or not.

Dauphin is offline Dauphin
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Caught in a tuna net
Jan 1970
time: 05:16
  Old Post 23-11-2001 17:27
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You mean you are tatting me for nothing?

Thanx for letting me now what injured you ego.

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
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May 2001
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  Old Post 23-11-2001 17:30 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Big Crunch
You mean you are tatting me for nothing?

Thanx for letting me now what injured you ego.


I like tatting.

Dauphin is offline Dauphin
Emperor
Caught in a tuna net
Jan 1970
time: 05:16
  Old Post 23-11-2001 17:32
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I prefer titting.

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
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Macedonia
May 2001
time: 00:16
  Old Post 23-11-2001 17:34 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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As soon as I submitted my post I knew that was coming.

Roman is offline Roman
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Bratislava, Slovakia
Sep 2000
time: 05:16
Question  Old Post 23-11-2001 17:43
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What's the equation for transfer of momentum from light hitting a solid object with a mass? I haven't done any physics for 2 years now, so I am forgeting more and more.

Roman is offline Roman
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Bratislava, Slovakia
Sep 2000
time: 05:16
  Old Post 23-11-2001 17:51
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I just read in one of the links provided that to create an acceleration of 1g for 1kg using light would reguire 3*10^9W !!! This is the power output of three medium sized nuclear power stations - devoted exclusively to accelerating one kg and this assumes an almost perfect reflective surface. I am now very sceptical of this mode of propulsion.

Dauphin is offline Dauphin
Emperor
Caught in a tuna net
Jan 1970
time: 05:16
  Old Post 23-11-2001 18:10
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That is why you would have a "launch" mirror placed on a heavy body, (e.g the Moon). If you have photon shuttling back and forth between the launch mirror and the satellite being propelled you only need to provide that energy once. It is not outside the bounds of possibility. This is what is done in testing the recession of the Moon from the Earth, and was used to test GR (the laser signals were sent to Venus satellites and back)

Once the light is Dopplered too much to be sufficiently reflected then it is absorbed or "recycled".

Roman is offline Roman
King
Bratislava, Slovakia
Sep 2000
time: 05:16
  Old Post 23-11-2001 21:31
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I had not thought of that. That's a very clever idea Big Crunch. But how difficult would it be to track a probe with such a mirror so that it constantly points at it? How quickly would significant Doppler shift manifest? AND above all, what is the equation for the transfer of momentum from a photon to a solid mass?

TCO is offline TCO
Emperor
Richmond, VA
Jan 1970
time: 00:16
  Old Post 24-11-2001 00:00
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quote:
Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Just read it. I don't know; first off, I have no idea how you'd build a 0.1 kT fission bomb. Secondly, I'm really surprised the pusher platewould withstand hundreds of detonations of size ~20 kT. Third, I wouldn't advocate launching a rocket using nuke explosions; this sounds sort of wacko. Maybe a few flights would be okay using this method, but it doesn't sound like a long term solution. Fourth, given that the chances of a catastrophic failure of any launch vehicle in existence is ~1/50, it seems sort of crazy to put...umm...~500 lbs of fissile material on board such a lunch vehicle. I really don't know what the impact would be on Earth. Would the module containing the bombs be left intact or scattered for a couple of thousand miles along its flight path?

That being said, it's worthy of furthe study at least. Dyson is sort of known as an incurable blue-sky optimist isn't he?


But the interesting thing is that it's existing technology. The issues are pretty much common-sense engineering ones. In particular, the materials issue you mentioned. I've been to the Test Site while they were still doing tests (underground of course). Their are some pretty amazing things they can do in terms of working with nuclear explosions.

Why so hard to beleive that they could desing a plate to take the impacts. That stuff is pretty easily tested and worked on as part of nuclear weapons research. Of course, most of the results are classified. But it should be pretty easy to envision some of the experiments.

Please note: I'm not an advocate for this. Or an Orion "nut". I just think it's fascinating. Sorta like how the SR-71 is the fastest airplane and it's 4 decades old. There is some cool **** out there. Like the Fulton Skyhook, etc.

TCO is offline TCO
Emperor
Richmond, VA
Jan 1970
time: 00:16
  Old Post 24-11-2001 00:05
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I'm not so sure solar cells are the answer. What are you going to do with the energy. What efficiency will you have (it isn't anywhere near 100%). and will it be able to handle the power densities you need?

Roman is offline Roman
King
Bratislava, Slovakia
Sep 2000
time: 05:16
  Old Post 24-11-2001 00:46
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As I understood it, you would use mirrors, not solar cells.

Roman is offline Roman
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Bratislava, Slovakia
Sep 2000
time: 05:16
  Old Post 24-11-2001 22:04
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Could some resident physicist post an equation for the transfer of momentum from photons to matter with mass? Thanks.

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
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Macedonia
May 2001
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  Old Post 24-11-2001 23:10 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Roman
Could some resident physicist post an equation for the transfer of momentum from photons to matter with mass? Thanks.


Assuming probe is moving non-relativistically (v/c < 0.01)

Well, a photon of frequency "f" carries momentum hf/c (h is planck's constant; ~6.6*10^-34 Js IIRC and c is the speed of light; 3*10^8 m/s) and energy hf. Given a massive (mc^2 >> hf) body, the momentum transfer from the photon is simply hf/c for absorption and 2hf/c for reflection.

Last edited by KrazyHorse on 24-11-2001 at 23:19

Roman is offline Roman
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Bratislava, Slovakia
Sep 2000
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  Old Post 25-11-2001 00:09
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quote:
Originally posted by KrazyHorse


Assuming probe is moving non-relativistically (v/c < 0.01)

Well, a photon of frequency "f" carries momentum hf/c (h is planck's constant; ~6.6*10^-34 Js IIRC and c is the speed of light; 3*10^8 m/s) and energy hf. Given a massive (mc^2 >> hf) body, the momentum transfer from the photon is simply hf/c for absorption and 2hf/c for reflection.


Thanks.

TCO is offline TCO
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Richmond, VA
Jan 1970
time: 00:16
  Old Post 25-11-2001 06:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Big Crunch
That is why you would have a "launch" mirror placed on a heavy body, (e.g the Moon). If you have photon shuttling back and forth between the launch mirror and the satellite being propelled you only need to provide that energy once. It is not outside the bounds of possibility. This is what is done in testing the recession of the Moon from the Earth, and was used to test GR (the laser signals were sent to Venus satellites and back)

Once the light is Dopplered too much to be sufficiently reflected then it is absorbed or "recycled".


What percent of the photon energy is given to the vehicle on each bounce? I would think that if you are relying on mulitple bounces you will have some real issues here with beam spreading.

Roman is offline Roman
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Bratislava, Slovakia
Sep 2000
time: 05:16
  Old Post 25-11-2001 08:51
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quote:
Originally posted by GP
What percent of the photon energy is given to the vehicle on each bounce? I would think that if you are relying on mulitple bounces you will have some real issues here with beam spreading.


That depends on the reflectability of the mirror.

With regard to problems, I agree especially the spreading of the beam and the targeting of the spacecraft despite movement of both the spacecraft and the mirror seem daunting.

TCO is offline TCO
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Richmond, VA
Jan 1970
time: 00:16
  Old Post 25-11-2001 08:59
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What does it depend on? To what extent? Give me a bench mark. Anyway, I'm asking for an individual photon. Isn't the collision elastic in that extreme? Anyway assume a faceted single crystal of Ag that has been micro polished and was cut on the 111 plane.

Roman is offline Roman
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Bratislava, Slovakia
Sep 2000
time: 05:16
  Old Post 25-11-2001 09:35
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Well, assuming a perfectly reflective mirror I dare say the energy conversion is 100% efficient if Big Crunches idea of recycling the light (using a second mirror and bouncing the light back and forth between the spacecraft and the mirror) is used.

 
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