22-11-2001 02:24									#31
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As for the 4 million turks. How much of a percent is that compared to the rest of the population???? 2%?? Not alot.......certainly not enough to trumpet diversity! And even then, German people go nuts about these turks.

	22-11-2001 02:26									#32
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Immigration is an odd proxy issue. Apparently, it was a big issue in the election, but when it comes down to it, wasn't there a deeper argument going on? That's what Saddam is alluding to. You could look at this as a broad rebuke of socialism. In the heart of socialist country, no less! But I prefer to look at it as a healthy democratic sweeping of the stable floor... In the US, immigration is a ton of mixed up issues, not only partly related with race or racism. So comparing US v. Europe isn't apples-to-apples.

Note that the policy venstre is going to follow would still be called communism in the US, so not really a rebuke of socialism.

	22-11-2001 02:42									#33
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No, it's just another victory for the Right who are right. You Danes actually might get lower than 90% taxes. Wouldn't that be nice

	22-11-2001 02:46									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Thue Ökke ökke höj höj! Ökke ökke höj höj! Translation, please? Even a rough one?

In spite of the globalization of production and capital, today's lifestyles and production methods demand even more depth and quality of empathy than in the past, and this can't be achived through political control and moral indoctrination. Today the solidarity and community spirit in Denmark and other small countries is threadened from many sides. From within by closed and intolerant minorities and from without by the worship of globalization and international financial power.

The Danish People's party encourages increased awareness and unity around those values the Danish society is build on. It is our common responsibility to protect them. Only by doing that can we make our contribution to the development of Denmark and the creation of a more stable and fair world community. [/QUOTE]




faded glory,

in the Netherlands most of the immigration comes from africa and middle eastern countries if I am not mistaken.

actually the high percentage of immigrant people (many of whom now have dutch nationality) in the dutch population has given rise to interesting debates such as: as the dutch population changes will the new people who come from immigrants support the very liberal status of Holland (drug policies) etc.


The germans don't go nuts about the turks. There have been bad incidents by bunch of unemployed, sh!theads sure.

Of course immigration in Europe has no equivalant to the US because the US is in itslef an immigrant country.


European political schematics, ideologies and symbolisms are different than the american ones (who seem oversimplified in my eyes).

	22-11-2001 02:47									#35
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Well 2% of danish GDP goes to Africa/poor countrys. If I were living in Copenhagen Ide be smoked about that. I have to think that the 2% could be used more somehow at home rather than abroad.

Denmark isnt that perfect? is it?

	22-11-2001 03:21									#36
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 quote: In spite of the globalization of production and capital, today's lifestyles and production methods demand even more depth and quality of empathy than in the past, and this can't be achived through political control and moral indoctrination. Today the solidarity and community spirit in Denmark and other small countries is threadened from many sides. From within by closed and intolerant minorities and from without by the worship of globalization and international financial power. The Danish People's party encourages increased awareness and unity around those values the Danish society is build on. It is our common responsibility to protect them. Only by doing that can we make our contribution to the development of Denmark and the creation of a more stable and fair world community.

Actually that was the part taken from the nationalists. It is used as an argument that we should cut down on the immigration because those that come do not share our values, and so don't contribute to the mythical perfect Danish community.
When you see some of their other comments it becomes clear that some of their ideas are just paranoid. Some of their comments are quite unacceptable.

It should be noted that everybody seem to agree on helping the rest of the world through foreign aid. The Danish people's party said that we should cut down on immigration of refugees who won't fit in and instead just help them in their own contries.

	22-11-2001 03:27									#37
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well I agree with that part about globilization.

When speaking about preserving Denmark's ideals I thought they were refering to tolerance of other people.

	22-11-2001 03:37									#38
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It's a political disaster which finally convinced me I have to enter politics in some way or another. The third largest party in Denmark, the before mentioned "People's Party", has somehow managed to get away with completely absurd rhetorics. I remember how Camre, the guy who represents them in the European Parlament, made a post-September 11 speech about the evilness of the Muslims, and how he recieved a standing ovation after his conclusion: No mosque shall ever be built on Danish soil. I've never been so embarrased about my country before - I mean, we're talking about a country whose current social democratic gov't already has an immigration policy roughly like that of Jörg Haider, and it still isn't enough. Yikes.

	22-11-2001 03:46									#39
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Yes, whenever The People's Party writes something bad about foreigners you should think "muslim".

Actually I to some degree agrees with their political goal of accepting less immigrants and helping more in the near areas. The ressources used to integrate a person (and remember that since we are socialists this is the responsibility of the state) could be better used in their original country.

	22-11-2001 03:52									#40
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There's nothing wrong with a decision to cut down on immigration based on a concrete, thought out study and assessment of the situation.

But political refugees seeking heaven from oppresion and persecution of their political ideas should ALWAYS be welcomed in Europe.

	22-11-2001 04:06									#41
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Of course political refugees deserves to be helped.

It just seems that the world today has an inexaustable supply of refugees. Given limited ressources you then have the choice between integrating one in a european country, or helping 10 equally deserving people in their home country.

Note that I have nothing against ressourcefull, openminded immigrants, no matter their skin color, culture or religion. We actually need more of those.
But weak immigrants will invariantly settle at the buttom of society, requirering lots of ressources that could be better used to help more people elsewhere. It is a tough world, but thats the facts.

Last edited by Thue on 22-11-2001 at 04:54

	22-11-2001 04:07									#42
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BirdMan, welcome to what liberal Australians are going through

Not surprisingly, your election got a lot of coverage in the Australian media

	22-11-2001 05:08									#43
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"Something is rotten in the state of Denmark"

-Shakespeare

What the fvck happened to the country that stood up to the Nazi's- that had "no Jews, only Danes"- where the Gentiles took to wearing Star of Bethlehem armbands when the Nazis finally starting making the Jews wear them- where they smuggled the Jews out to Sweden, and minded their homes, business, pets and even their gardens for over a year until they could return???

"No Mosque shall ever be built on Danish soil!"???


Well fvck Camre and the pig he road in on.

I cannot believe this will last. The coalition will fall. I cannot believe this represents either the youth of Denmark nor those who can remember the war.

What % of seats does Venstre / DPP have amongst themselves?

	22-11-2001 05:18									#44
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Viking "Something is rotten in the state of Denmark" -Shakespeare What the fvck happened to the country that stood up to the Nazi's- that had "no Jews, only Danes"- where the Gentiles took to wearing Star of Bethlehem armbands when the Nazis finally starting making the Jews wear them- where they smuggled the Jews out to Sweden, and minded their homes, business, pets and even their gardens for over a year until they could return???

Yeah, but did you fight the Nazis?


I think this is happening in places in Europe because:

_people have forgotten
_unemployment
_rampant uncontrolled immigration

	22-11-2001 05:23									#45
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The Mad Viking: No, the people who matter don't think like that. As I said, me and my friends would laught at them if they hadn't gotten 12% .

paiktis22: In the case of Denmark I think it is all coming out now, after it hasn't been possible to talk about the problems there have in fact been for PC reasons. This is just an overreaction. Plus of course a good deal of ignorance and stupidity.

	22-11-2001 05:25									#46
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Ok, maybe I missunderstood and haven't read carefully the news that were provided.

Who is or will be in power in Denmark now?

The center right, right?

	22-11-2001 05:31									#47
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ok I read it all from a greek news site.

What are the parliamentary seats of :

the danish people's party
the liberals
the central christian democrats
and the conservatives?

those are the ones that will make the new government right?

	22-11-2001 05:57									#48
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 What are the parliamentary seats of : the danish people's party the liberals the central christian democrats and the conservatives? those are the ones that will make the new government right?

Venstre, Liberals 56
Danish People's Party 22
Conservative People's Party 16
Christian People's Party 4

Social Democrats 52
Socialist People's Party 12
Radikale Venstre, Social Liberals 9
Enhedslisten, Radical Left 4

Also 2 seats each from The Faroes and Greenland for a total of 179.

The new government will be one of Liberals and Conservatives, with the parliamentary support of the Christians and DPP, but naturally without their participation in the actual cabinet.

First time since 1920 that my party, Venstre is the country's largest...

Contrary to popular foreign belief, this general election wasn't decided solely on issues of immigration. Most people here agree that it was also a matter of people wanting reform of the welfare state and that they didn't see the Social Democrats being able to perform such a change.

Plus people finally realised Poul Nyrup Rasmussen was all form and no substance, compared to Anders Fogh.

DPP is anti-EU BTW, so there'll have to be a broad consesus across the centre on that important issue, which should be no problem.

	22-11-2001 06:15									#49
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paitkis,

quote: So how many Social Democrat governments in EU now? 12 out of 15?

Well...

Spain is centre-right
Denmark is centre-right
Italy is centre-right
Austria is centre-right
UK is centre-right (but centre-left in name only)
Germany and France and centre-left but increasingly moving to the right.

Sweden, Luxembourg, Belgium, Holland, Finland, Portugal, Greece and Ireland are irrelevent.

	22-11-2001 06:19									#50
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When did the UK join the EU?

I was right then. 11 out of 15 EU governments are Social Democratic! (I include the UK in the EU just because it has a 3 way thingy )

	22-11-2001 06:33									#51
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Ok let's see then.


Center Left EU governments:

France
Germany
Britain
Sweden
Luxembourg
Belgium
Holland
Finland
Portugal
Greece
Ireland

Center right EU governments

Spain
Italy
Denmark
Austria



Ok I'll relax then

But do we know how things were before?

I think at a certain time ALL EU governments were social democratic or center left?

	22-11-2001 06:36									#52
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 I think at a certain time ALL EU governments were social democratic or center left?

Yes, that period of time is commonly refered to as the Middle Ages. Society has come a long way since then.

	22-11-2001 06:40									#53
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I thought this was EU's Golden Age?

But now the barbarians just keep on coming No sweat though

	22-11-2001 06:46									#54
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Actually, parliamentarians from my party, Venstre, are sometimes refered to as Vikings.

No kidding. Due to their persistance and durability or something.

	22-11-2001 06:50									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Winston Actually, parliamentarians from my party, Venstre, are sometimes refered to as Vikings. No kidding. Due to their persistance and durability or something.

Well considering they had to wait more than half of a century to see the light of day I say they've earned it

(when was the previous time they were in power? 1920? )

	22-11-2001 07:10									#56
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Heh. They've been in government 1968-71, 1973-75, 1977-79 and 1982-1993 (longest serving cabinet since WWII), plus numerous times in the past.

But this election was a true landslide. Shows what an inept Social Democratic government for 8 years can do for the opposition... I guess they weren't totally useless after all.

Social democrats lost 11 seats, Venstre gained 14, DPP 9, minor fluctuations for the other parties. Quite unheard of here.

	22-11-2001 07:10									#57
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Calling the Blair government "centre-left" is really clutching at straws.

Interesting to see you didn't refute my calling of most EU countries "irrelevent".

	22-11-2001 07:15									#58
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EiF, the only irrelevant country in the EU is the UK



Winston,
It's true that the Social Democratic «frenzy» is beggining to fade. But I think it is special for each indivindual country. I don't think it's a trend that social democracy or the left wing is fading. Quite the contrary.

BTW, aren't you uncomfortable that you'll share power with DPP?

	22-11-2001 07:22									#59
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The left-wing *is* fading. The only reason that there are "centre-left" governments in Germany, France and the UK is because they've had to move so far to the right. "Social democracy" is a dead term anyway - it died in 1977 in the UK for sure, and ironically the fallout from it's demise (the winter of discontent) shifted the UK political spectrum even further to the right. And it hasn't moved back - New Labour only came to power by becoming a Tory party without the bad connotations.

	22-11-2001 07:27									#60
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It is true that the left wing has moved increasingly to the right. But this mostly applies to financial policies. And still there are concrete differences that separate it from the right wing. (as well numerous other aspects that create a defining difference).

I'm more «left», than your typical Social Democrat (whatever that means in a paneuropean level). So I also am critical of the Social Democratic mainstream.