22-11-2001 00:07									#1
	A dark day for Denmark - the 20 november 2001 Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Yesterday.

Election to the danish paliament (wrong spelled, I know. But I do not have a dic near me).

I am close to cry (and I am not drunk).

Soon the day shall come, when the darkest government for - say nearly 100 years - shall rule the danes.

GOD save the Queen (the danish, she had guts to tell the people some thuths before some made her silent, in a new year speaking years back).

The LORD save Denmark - no one else can.

HOLY **** (Ming and/or other moderators - pls let this pass!).

	22-11-2001 00:14									#2
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Seeing how this leftist cries, I assume the conservatives won several seats in the Danish parliament. The world is waking up, with the liberal execution and the talk of revolution, it bleeds in me and it tells a great day in Danish history.

	22-11-2001 00:17									#3
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Sheesh max what did you guys do

Elect hitler......

im going to find a danish link to see what your so damn worried about

	22-11-2001 00:20									#4
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Sieg Hiel 9-11 shook the very core of the liberal philophsy




Danish PM concedes defeat, centre-right wins


COPENHAGEN, Nov 20 (Reuters) - Denmark's veteran Social Democrat Prime Minister Poul Nyrup Rasmussen conceded defeat on Tuesday to the opposition centre-right after voters deserted him in a general election.

Nyrup Rasmussen, who came to power in 1993 and is the longest serving European Union prime minister, said he would stay on as leader of his party.

"The country we are now handing over to a centre-right government is a far better one than it was when we came to power almost nine years ago," he said. "We will be a fair and constructive opposition."

Opposition Liberal Party leader Anders Fogh Rasmussen, an ex-economy and tax minister, picked up votes by promising change and to tighten access for asylum seekers and refugees. He was expected to form a Liberal-led coalition.

Nyrup Rasmussen, 58, called the snap election last month in a disastrous gamble that voters would unite behind his leadership at a time of global uncertainty after the September 11 attacks on the United States.

	22-11-2001 00:31									#5
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I feel your pain TheBirdMan

Bit it's just a minor setback! I mean the center right has to win once in a century

So how many Social Democrat governments in EU now?

12 out of 15?

	22-11-2001 00:32									#6
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This is difficult to believe. The very heart of the EU has feels like this. I had no idea danes had such a large immigration problem anyway.

Denmark's new PM denies he's hostage to extremism

By Per Bech Thomsen


COPENHAGEN, Nov 21 (Reuters) - Denmark's next prime minister brushed aside unease at home and abroad on Wednesday that a big swing to the right in a general election would leave him hostage to the vitriolically anti-immigrant far right.

The Liberal Party of Anders Fogh Rasmussen, 48, eclipsed the Social Democrats of outgoing Prime Minister Poul Nyrup Rasmussen in Tuesday's election for the first time since the 1920s.

Nyrup Rasmussen, no relation of his successor, formally handed his resignation to Queen Margrethe on Wednesday.

But the next prime minister, whose win dealt a fresh blow to Scandinavia's once-mighty social democrats, tried to distance himself from the anti-immigration Danish People's Party (DPP).

"I will endeavour to secure a broad cooperation in parliament," Fogh Rasmussen told a new conference, adding it could take days to form a new government.

DPP leader Pia Kjaersgaard has exploited fears about Muslims since the suicide hijack attacks on the United States on September 11. She has urged far stricter limits on immigration and once said she crossed the street when she met a Muslim.

"It's clear I'm worried. We now see a government which will be forced to prop itself up with anti-foreigner ideas," Swedish Social Democratic Prime Minister Goran Persson said.

Fogh Rasmussen said international concern was based on misunderstandings. "Their analyses are superficial and can lead to dangerous conclusions," he said.

But he reiterated his campaign pledge of limiting the number of newcomers to Denmark. "That will give us a breathing space to improve conditions for those already here," he said.

HOSTILITY ON THE RISE

In Copenhagen, immigrants were dismayed.

"I often get called names when I go out on the town for a beer and the ugly remarks increased after September 11," said Wallid Elamrani, a 24-year-old student from Jordan who said he might try to move to "a less hostile country."

"I fear things could get worse...with this new government," said Zarah Ahmed, a 36-year-old shopkeeper from Syria.

In Sweden, the daily Dagens Nyheter was blunt. "It is difficult to point to any winner in the Danish election but the losers are easier to identify, they are all those with dark skin, humanism and decency. Goodnight Denmark," it said.

Paradoxically, Danes' per capita aid to developing nations is the highest in the world. And for a first time, two immigrants won seats in parliament in Tuesday's election.

Fewer than five percent of Denmark's 5.3 million inhabitants are foreigners, a lower proportion than in much of Europe.

Danish newspapers hailed the landslide as showing that Danes were fed up after nine years under Nyrup Rasmussen, the European Union's longest serving prime minister. "It is clear that a basic desire for change played a role," Politiken said.

The Liberals, their Conservative ally and right-wing support won 98 seats in parliament versus 77 for Nyrup Rasmussen's bloc.

Fogh Rasmussen was expected to form a minority coalition with the Conservatives. But it will depend on informal support from DPP, the third biggest group in parliament.

Fogh Rasmussen has ruled out giving the DPP any seats in his cabinet. Thus Denmark will not swing as far right as Austria, where the Freedom Party of Joerg Haider has seats in government.

The defeat was a stinging rebuff to Nyrup Rasmussen, 58, who called the snap election in a gamble that voters would unite behind his nine-year leadership after the September 11 attacks.

Denmark is the second Scandinavian nation after Norway to ditch a Social Democratic government this year in favour of the centre-right.



Btw not to confuse anyone. I think both of there names are Rasmussen

	22-11-2001 00:33									#7
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Sorry this is in danish - but you should probably be able to translate the essence of this.

And this is the PROPER part of it. You can't find the real dirty things on the official WEB (http://www.danskfolkeparti.dk/)

quote: Trods globaliseringen af varefremstilling og kapital kræver nutidens samlivs- og produktionsformer endnu mere end fortidens en dybde og kvalitet i samhørigheden, der ikke kan opfyldes gennem politisk styring og moralsk indoktrinering. Samhørigheden og fællesskabet i Danmark og andre små lande trues i dag fra flere sider. Indefra af lukkede og intolerante mindretal og udefra gennem dyrkelsen af globalisering og international kapitalmagt.

quote: Dansk Folkeparti opfordrer til øget bevidsthed og sammenhold om de værdier, det danske samfund er bygget på. Det er vort fælles ansvar at værne om dem. Kun derved kan vi yde vort bidrag til udviklingen af Danmark og til skabelsen af et mere stabilt og retfærdigt verdenssamfund.

Saddam - I know you would probably not be worried about this. And yes. I am a half "red" person. One who worries about the reputaion of my nation, the way we treat foreingers (including refugees) and the poorest among our people.

I DO REMEMBER only 30 years ago, when most of the people who had their lifes on the long highways and visiting small towns did it because they DID NOT WANT to be part of the community. Now even we have homeless sleeping whereever they are able to find a place.

I HATE THIS.

Edit: I also do need glasses. I do see most of my mis-spellings at a second glance. I have only corrected one (until now).

	22-11-2001 00:35									#8
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Bob Dorman: You don't have a clue what is discussed here but feel comnpetent enough to disqualify the thread in one sentence?


Yes, the danish vote must be considered a disaster! But even if the Socialists had won: The xenophobic argumentation didn't halt before the socialists. If you ask me, Jörg Haider in Denmark would be an even moderate socialist...

	22-11-2001 00:38									#9
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Max since my government is a right wing one Im not particularly worried.

But since only 3% of your population are immigrants. What the hell is wrong with the danish people. Suspicoun?

Max its just odd.....

27% of our population is immigrants....nobody pays any attention to the anti-immigrantionists on the far left/right.

amazing.

	22-11-2001 00:39									#10
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quote: Originally posted by TheBirdMan Now even we have homeless sleeping whereever they are able to find a place. I HATE THIS.

Same in Greece which is much poorer than Denmark.

In the '80's there were virtually no homeless. Now I sometimes see a homeless in the street Godamn it.

First we will die and then the welfare state will be banished. I'm ready to get out on the streets and protest for its protection anyday of the week.

	22-11-2001 00:42									#11
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I guess what I mean to say what part of the 3% immigration policy has got them so freakin spooked

I have heard stories all over Europe of Immigrants abusing the tax-funded Welfare systems. But still.....reform makes alot more sense than stoopping/tightening immigration.

	22-11-2001 00:46									#12
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 First we will die and then the welfare state will be banished. I'm ready to get out on the streets and protest for its protection anyday of the week.

And how much do you actually pay into this system? Are YOU getting your moneys worth? Or is your money going to someone who no intention of getting a job etc etc.......and just wants to be a parasite to society.

Im just asking. Dont flame me. Most americans would ask this question

	22-11-2001 00:46									#13
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Yet another weird thing is that the Liberal Party is called Venstre, which means left.

Anyway, with the lights going out in both Norway and Denmark, Sweden is Scandinavia's last Social Democratic stronghold. In one year it's election, Scandinavia's hope is up to us now...

[Nb. intentionally over-melodramatic content.]

Last edited by Juggernaut on 22-11-2001 at 00:56

	22-11-2001 00:47									#14
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory 27% of our population is immigrants....nobody pays any attention to the anti-immigrantionists on the far left/right. amazing.

Well being anti-immigrants would give a swing of 27% to the opposition. Thats why the main parties don't play that card.

	22-11-2001 00:50									#15
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And now tell me that globalization does not suck!

The bigger reason center right governments are getting to power is the sheer pressure to reform our welfare state because it «cannot be sustained any longer».

Says who?

Because we have to compete with the US in terms of productivity and because there no longer exists a USSR does that mean we must abandon the social state which is one of the most important characteristics of Europe?

I say no! I don't care if it costs us a few percentage points less in economic development!

	22-11-2001 00:57									#16
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Im no fan of the welfare state and high taxes. It slows economic growth and consumer spending which brings in just as much taxes anyway.

Lets hope this is a dominoe effect anyway...I never liked the Social Democrats. They remind me way to much of the Communists.

	22-11-2001 01:02									#17
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quote: Anyway, with the lights going out in both Norway and Denmark, Sweden's Scandinavias last Social Democratic stronghold.

Ahem! Ahm! Well, all right, if you use the tight definition of Scandinavia...

...and, considering PM Lipponen, loose definition of Social Democrat.

Anyway, it's a good thing that Finland doesn't have a far-right populist party like Freedom Party or Danish People's Party. There are the True Finns, but they are a joke with 1,1% support.

	22-11-2001 01:13									#18
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory I never liked the Social Democrats. They remind me way to much of the Communists.

Compared to the Social Democrats 30 years ago, today's Swedish SD's reminds more about the right-wing Moderate Party.

The contemporary SD's have gone neo-liberal and actually advocates 'humane capitalism'. The privatizing continues, so today they have actually very little in common with communists...

But I guess compared to US politics, all Scandinavian partys are hardcore Bolsjeviks.

	22-11-2001 01:13									#19
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quote: Trods globaliseringen af varefremstilling og kapital kræver nutidens samlivs- og produktionsformer endnu mere end fortidens en dybde og kvalitet i samhørigheden, der ikke kan opfyldes gennem politisk styring og moralsk indoktrinering. Samhørigheden og fællesskabet i Danmark og andre små lande trues i dag fra flere sider. Indefra af lukkede og intolerante mindretal og udefra gennem dyrkelsen af globalisering og international kapitalmagt. Dansk Folkeparti opfordrer til øget bevidsthed og sammenhold om de værdier, det danske samfund er bygget på. Det er vort fælles ansvar at værne om dem. Kun derved kan vi yde vort bidrag til udviklingen af Danmark og til skabelsen af et mere stabilt og retfærdigt verdenssamfund.

Ökke ökke höj höj! Ökke ökke höj höj!

Translation, please? Even a rough one?

quote: I never liked the Social Democrats. They remind me way to much of the Communists.

Interestingly, in Finland of 50s and 60s, the so called "brothers-in-arms socialists" - members of right wing of Social Democrats - formed some of the strongest opposition to Soviet Union, local communists, and appeasement policy.

	22-11-2001 01:17									#20
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Euro politics are wierd. This guy is called a 'liberal' yet his policies on immigration and welfare are pretty far-right. Even by american standerds.

Wierd

Anybody know what kind of Coalition hes going to set up? Thats the thing that matters. Will there be Right-wing elements? No doubt he will still have to work with SD on issues.

	22-11-2001 01:17									#21
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The only two times I have seen the Nazi symbol spraypainted to a public fixture were both in Europe. One was in Munich and the other was on a bus stop in Finland.

The first time I heard a truly offensive racial joke was in Finland.

Sometimes I wonder if Europeans truly understand the diversity that America is saturated with.

	22-11-2001 01:21									#22
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quote: Originally posted by monolith94 Sometimes I wonder if Europeans truly understand the diversity that America is saturated with.

The answer is no

They do put on a good face for the International Community. But its all exterior whoring. Nothing is really meant by it. Europe has no clue what diversity is. Except england and france having large Muslim/African minoritys.

	22-11-2001 01:24									#23
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory And how much do you actually pay into this system? Are YOU getting your moneys worth? Or is your money going to someone who no intention of getting a job etc etc.......and just wants to be a parasite to society. Im just asking. Dont flame me. Most americans would ask this question

To some degree because we basically trust each other - Denmark has one of the lowest rates of corruption in the world (and a bit of control, of course). And we see it as the responsibility of the state to help people who have problems.

	22-11-2001 01:25									#24
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err faded glory,
don't be so quick to judge.

For example in the Netherlands 50% of the population of the big cities are not dutch. Scandinavia has had large immigration waves, in Germany alone they reside 4 million turk immigrants and so on and so forth.

	22-11-2001 01:26									#25
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European liberals = social liberals, libertarians or "libertarians light".

	22-11-2001 01:53									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Stefu quote: Trods globaliseringen af varefremstilling og kapital kræver nutidens samlivs- og produktionsformer endnu mere end fortidens en dybde og kvalitet i samhørigheden, der ikke kan opfyldes gennem politisk styring og moralsk indoktrinering. Samhørigheden og fællesskabet i Danmark og andre små lande trues i dag fra flere sider. Indefra af lukkede og intolerante mindretal og udefra gennem dyrkelsen af globalisering og international kapitalmagt. Dansk Folkeparti opfordrer til øget bevidsthed og sammenhold om de værdier, det danske samfund er bygget på. Det er vort fælles ansvar at værne om dem. Kun derved kan vi yde vort bidrag til udviklingen af Danmark og til skabelsen af et mere stabilt og retfærdigt verdenssamfund. Ökke ökke höj höj! Ökke ökke höj höj! Translation, please? Even a rough one?

In spite of the globalization of production and capital, today's lifestyles and production methods demand even more depth and quality of empathy than in the past, and this can't be achived through political control and moral indoctrination. Today the solidarity and community spirit in Denmark and other small countries is threadened from many sides. From within by closed and intolerant minorities and from without by the worship of globalization and international financial power.

The Danish People's party encourages increased awareness and unity around those values the Danish society is build on. It is our common responsibility to protect them. Only by doing that can we make our contribution to the development of Denmark and the creation of a more stable and fair world community.

	22-11-2001 02:00									#27
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Immigration is an odd proxy issue. Apparently, it was a big issue in the election, but when it comes down to it, wasn't there a deeper argument going on? That's what Saddam is alluding to. You could look at this as a broad rebuke of socialism. In the heart of socialist country, no less! But I prefer to look at it as a healthy democratic sweeping of the stable floor...

In the US, immigration is a ton of mixed up issues, not only partly related with race or racism. So comparing US v. Europe isn't apples-to-apples.

	22-11-2001 02:08									#28
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Basically, the far right got their votes by making paranoid comments that our socialist wellfare system was threadened by immigrants that would misuse it, cause crime, etc.

While immigrants as a group do have some bad stats (higher crime and unemployment), it is mostly just paranoia and ignoring that Danes in many cases are also far from perfect. And their hate talk isn't helping the integration. Some of them are doing ridiculous stereotyping. As we said at the university, we would laugh at them if they didn't get 12% of the votes .
We have discrimination and hate speech laws which should have been used many times in this campain, but probably as a side effect of sep 11 they have not been used much.

	22-11-2001 02:17									#29
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In related news 87% voted, not bad.

	22-11-2001 02:22									#30
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 err faded glory, don't be so quick to judge. For example in the Netherlands 50% of the population of the big cities are not dutch. Scandinavia has had large immigration waves, in Germany alone they reside 4 million turk immigrants and so on and so forth.

Whats the other 50%??? German? Its all Euro Laced......