23-11-2001 14:45									#121
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does anyone have a link to the eurobarometer surveys on social matters?

I tried searching the site of eurostats before but it is a DOG! One of the least user friendly sites I've seen.

	23-11-2001 15:09									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Roland "Another point of great concern is that an overwhelming number of even third generation immigrants from Moslim countries continue to find their spouse in their home country." Got any stats on this ?

The figure 7,000 this past year was given by the Ministry of the Interior for second and third generation immigrants who married through family unification. They estimated it would rise to 40,000 per year by 2020, which (momentarily) caused a bit of alarm even among the bleeding heart leftists here. You have to remember we're a country of 5,3 million people.

But numbers and statistics aren't really all that important when you happen to live in the country where you see and feel every day of the year that our policy of integration has failed miserably.

Especially in greater Copenhagen and other large cities, an entire generation of immigrants from certain areas in the World will never become integrated I fear. They don't want to, and the system certainly can't force them to, even if it had the means to - which it doesn't. Not by a long shot. So they are left to themselves, supported on welfare without a job, an education or a network to connect them to the rest of society. Groups of them following the news just enough to enable them to wave flags, cheer and praise God early in the evening of September 11...

Like someone wisely mentioned earlier, a lot of good would be done for both parties of this problem if people in unfortunate circumstances standard of living-wise would be aided in their home countries rather than brought into a culturural frame they have no desire to join. Ever.

	23-11-2001 15:15									#123
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"The figure 7,000 this past year was given by the Ministry of the Interior for second and third generation immigrants who married through family unification."

But this only works if they are citizens ?

"So they are left to themselves, supported on welfare without a job, an education or a network to connect them to the rest of society."

What about mandatory schooling ?

	23-11-2001 15:24									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Roland But this only works if they are citizens ?

They are citizens. They were born here. Hence the nomination second an third generation immigrants.

quote: What about mandatory schooling ?

It's there, but kids don't necessarily have to pay attention to anything in school, do they? Plus an increasing portion attend privately run Quran schools (100% subsidized by the government, naturally), where they can concentrate on their native language and studying the Holy Scripture. Control of these schools' tuition practices is non-existant.

We're good people. We don't force people into something they don't want...

Of course, it's still taboo to raise concern about these things, but there we are.

	23-11-2001 15:39									#125
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the road to hell is filled with good intentions...


about integrating...

we have the muslim minority in Thrace. They cannot integrate either.

In order not to force the minority to abandon its culture, we have hired turkish speaking teachers, gotten books from Turkey, build schools just for them, made it very easy for them to enter university (special slots reserved for them) etc etc etc

This system doesn't work. (those kids don't even learn greek).

And the leaders of the muslim minority care more about what Turkey tells them to do than what the best interest of their kids is. (so they support a sustem that simply doesn't work for the kids).

The albanian immigrants' kids on the other hand, attend regular greek schools (actually almost half of the pupils in central athenian schools are albanian now).

They learn greek perfectly and they master good grades (in mathematics particularly they are very strong).


Tell me which of the two systems is better...

(and religion doesn't count at all. Most of the albanian kids are muslim too but they adapt with ease - many change their religion to Christian Orthodox afterwards but that's another matter - a balkan matter - we'd have to discuss until tomorrow for that one)

Last edited by Bereta_Eder on 23-11-2001 at 16:08

	23-11-2001 15:40									#126
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Now we're getting to the interesting details.

"They are citizens. They were born here. Hence the nomination second an third generation immigrants."

Well we have a ius sanguinis system. So unless people apply for citizenship, and fulfill the criteria, you could be a 3rd generation immigrant without citizenship (but with virtually idiot-proof staying right).

"Plus an increasing portion attend privately run Quran schools (100% subsidized by the government, naturally), where they can concentrate on their native language and studying the Holy Scripture. Control of these schools' tuition practices is non-existant."

You are good, we are paranoid. Goes back to the bureaucratic tradition of the monarchy, I guess... a Quran school is not entitled to public funding. On the other hand, muslim religion classes in public schools, or muslim private schools can be state-funded - which comes with a certain control...

	23-11-2001 16:01									#127
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kids should learn the language of the country that hosts them. If they don't, you handicap them. So it should be made obligatory. Period After that they can do what ever else they want.

(that goes for the 200.000 minority in Thrace too - that system must change, sorry if some left wing comrades are not accepting it)

	23-11-2001 19:32									#128
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I am a little late in this thread,

but aren't you greeks scared of the immigrants. I guess that is the reason why Heider's party gained popularity in Austria. (Roland?)

This is a real threat, and if you don;t control it it can change your country forever. This is conquering the silent way. This happened in Fiji where the immigrant Indian majority rule now, since their number exceeded native populationand they took control of the county the democratic way, and nopw the natives have to put up with different way of life since they were not careful on time. This was the reaon for the civil war they had a few years ago.

On the othe hand smaller european countires, and tere are many, Austria, Denmark, Greece, Croatia (we are too poor to have this problem yet, can really suffer if not careful. If a country is too friendly there is no problem that you get 5 million Indian immigrants to Austria in 10 years if you would open your borders. For Croatia that would mean more than 50% majority (that number) and it would mean that Croats just lost their state.

That is going to happen to Macedonians in FYROM (or FYROMians :P ) Albanians have much highre natality ratem and in 20-30 years they will be the majority. What I see as a problem is that Albanians already ahve their own state, while this is the only one for Macedonians, and if they cannot have their own way there where can they have it???

So immigration - tricky stuff, did anyone mention what is the percentage of immigrants (and their offspring) in UK, France Germany and accross Europe?

	23-11-2001 19:41									#129
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one word: no permanent visas

no really, you raise very serious issues that have occupied the minds of a lot of people here.

	23-11-2001 19:51									#130
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in the balkans there are special parameters to be taken into consideration.

while an upheaval in western countries can only lead to serious social problems, in the balkans it can very well rip a large chunk off your country.

assimilation or temporary stay for people from neighbooring balkan countries (meaning... Albania) ... sorry... at least untill the balkans become safe.

	23-11-2001 20:22									#131
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but what good are theories if you can't put them to practice?


In less than 10 years the number of immigrants in Greece has risen from almost 0 to 1.2 millions

and people are determined to keep on coming from everywhere, every single land or water border Greece has. (except the one with italy)


virtually half of Albania lives here and sents its money back to Albania while the greek state keeps puring billions into the Albanian "economy". And if this was not enough now FYROM has become destabilized and Turkey's economy is down the slumps.


A country can never hope to stop rampant immigration if it is surrounded by much, much poorer countries than itself. It's impossible.

I want Greece to be open and kind to immigrants but there must be a plan and the means to enforce it. We can only take so many.

Anyway, we have talked to the EU about the need to boost our guarding of the frontiers.

Prodi said that the european south gaces the most acute problem in this regard and Greece faces the worst of the south (due to its -surprise - surprise geography).

But the little weak weazel said there won;t be additional funds in order to boost the guarding.

So let me get this straight:

1) we have to spend billions upon billions for our defense against Turkey (and WE BELONG TO FECKING NATO!!!!) and Turkey is Europe's problem not just ours.

2) we have to spend billions for boosting the guarding of the frontiers against rampant illegal immigration

3) we have to spend billions in building a welcoming infastructure (social, educational etc) for the hundrends of thousands of new immigrants

4) our land trade roads to Europe are cut off in FYROM and Kosovo and boat travel to Italy is much more expensive

5) and while doing all that we have to send peacekeeping forces all over the balkans (that's ok though)

6) and tourism will be somewhat hurt because of sept 11th terrorism

Actually I'm surprised we manage to have 4,5% economic growth this year.

something has to give.

anyway, we have called the EU on discussions about the immigration issue. The spanish and the Italians also face similar problems with us.

something concrete has to be done.

	23-11-2001 21:30									#132
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*ugh, really bad typing (but I was in a hurry)*,

anyway it is true, and I am suprised how can you cope. One good point being not in EU, and having your borders closed is at least national integrity. For example once when Croatia sorts its economy out (who knows when but eventually we will) I think that immigration will be the biggest problem, It's all right if you have maybe a 1-2 percent of new foreigners in your country over 20 years, they can assimilate and became Croatian (or British, or whatever) but if you have a sudden influx of people (like you say more than 1 million albanians in Greece in 10 years, they stay the same, and it is almost as a quiet invasion. If you walk trough their part of town you fell as if you are in another country, which is still fine as long as they don't became a huge minority or majority. That could happen to Croatia if we are not careful, there are only 4.5 million of people living there, and there is almost negative natality rate in the country. That means if you get an influx of 10% of other culture that lives their life the other way, and breeds well . In 20-50 yerars you are in trouble. man it is like Civ III . And if such cultures are very conscious of their values, like muslims, than they effectivley cause problems since they now want to set up their own ways in your land. That thought is scary.

I say that once when you move somewhere you should assimilate, and assimilation process is a slow one (2 - 3 genereatios) and it depends on the culture. The problem arises when one way of life prevails over the old one just because of huge number of immigrants in the country, and than the natives lose their way of life and their state, only the name stays. That happened in Nort America to the Indians, in Austraila to the natives, and in last few years to Fiji, I think that Trinidad and Tobago have a problem with indian immighrants too, but I am not too sure. Macedonia is another country that is on the same way. The problem that I see is that the native population loses the control of the state, while the immigrants have a state already. That is not to say that immigration should not be allowed, heck I am in UK for 6 years already (but I'll go back eventually), but for a country with small population of a few million like many in Europe it can be really dangerous, and should be controlled.