 |
|
Venger
|
|
Keeper of the Can-O'Whoopass
Jan 1970
time: 23:16
|
|
Is this what the game has come to ALREADY? A tedious gameplay exploit to get around the poor design and mechanics of the release? Oh boy...
That I can see you guys moving 80 workers around the map planting and logging makes me wonder 1) is this game even fun for you anymore and 2) WHY DIDN'T SOMEBODY GAMEPLAY TEST THIS GAME!?!? Anyone driven to this tedious tactic after only days of owning the game because they cannot build anything in a city due to the corruption should ask for a rebate from Infogrames...
Piteous...
Venger
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Velociryx
|
 |
of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:16
|
|
Hmm....
While I don't disagree with you, lumberjacking is hardly a new strategy.
It was not as widely used in SMAC as it has been discussed here for a few reasons, one of which is certainly the differences in effect re: Effie drain vs. Civ3 Corruption (and another was simply the fact that SMAC's Terraformers NEVER ran out of things to do), but the fact is....if I'm using it and you're not, I WILL outproduce you, even if corruption is fixed.
That's just math.
And, if I outproduce you (assuming we're approximately equal as players go), odds are good that I'll beat you.
I think what we're seeing here is more an attempt to cope with a level of AI aggression that we've not seen before in this series than an attempt to fix corruption (which, by the way, I'm in the minority....I don't happen to feel that it's broken per se, but support a late-game reduction in it representing technology and cultural breakthrus....for the ancient era, middle ages, and part of the industrial era tho, I'm all for it just as it is!).
As to the strategy itself, I *frequently* make limited use of it, even in cities with GOOD production....after getting myself out of Despotism, it's a good way to build up some shields to make paying for a rush with gold cheaper.
Just my two cents.
-=Vel=-
|
|
| |
|
|
|
barefootbadass
|
|
Vel is right, lumberjacking is a powerful strategy that would be used even if corruption were manage-able. I do it in cities with low corruption even if they aren't working on wonders. When MP comes out this will likely become a necessary thing to be competitive(better get your fingers in shape )
Anyway, this is not a problem IMO and if you are going to keep complaining you should go back to the general forum and complain there with the masses that want the game to fit their strategies rather than adjusting their strategy to fit the game.
Hang on, a patch is coming(hopefully soon) that will reduce corruption. I think Firaxis's playtesting got cut short along with production of MP because Infogrames wanted them to rush production(heh, unhappy customers for 20 turns I guess). At least I think I read that somewhere once.
Last edited by barefootbadass on 22-11-2001 at 03:01
|
|
| |
|
|
|
solo
|
|
Lowell, MA USA
Jan 2001
time: 05:16
|
|
Like incremental rush-buying in CivII, lumberjacking is a tedious, yet useful trick. In fact, I find it less tedious than incremental rush-buying.
True, it would be better to have a game design where such laborious tactics were not available, but until then, there is no better way to build up totally corrupt cities, so we do it to get by.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
inca911
|
|
St. Paul, MN
Jan 2000
time: 05:16
|
|
Like most other sane people, I will play Multiplayer (MP) under the caveat that lumberjacking is strictly prohibited. I have no desire to hold lumberjacking contests instead of Civ3 contests. If you want to do lumberjacking vs. the AI, go for it, but I won't want any time wasted with the whole mess in MP. Lumberjacking is just like the food caravan trick of Civ2....
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Capt Dizle
|
|
I am playtesting the lumberjack option strictly for use to build cultural improvements in border mega corruption cities.
Its a lot of work for cities that end up with +10 culture per turn, +1 commerce and +1 shield.
I think of them as border bumpers.
If they are going to leave this in as a viable option please God give us a lumberjacking hot key.
It's mind numbing.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Venger
|
|
Keeper of the Can-O'Whoopass
Jan 1970
time: 23:16
|
|
Good to see some thoughts on it. Personally, I see it as an exploit that while not quite cheating, is working so around the margins of a system as to render it unenjoyable - it's been mentioned that workers cost 1 gold per turn - is this correct? Because that would make it a little less attractive...
I got better things to do with my life than hit plant and clear around every city 8 times a turn...
Personally, I'd just as soon they fix corruption and courthouse effects and make lumberjacking moot...
Venger
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Monoriu
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Venger
Is this what the game has come to ALREADY? A tedious gameplay exploit to get around the poor design and mechanics of the release? Oh boy...
That I can see you guys moving 80 workers around the map planting and logging makes me wonder 1) is this game even fun for you anymore and 2) WHY DIDN'T SOMEBODY GAMEPLAY TEST THIS GAME!?!? Anyone driven to this tedious tactic after only days of owning the game because they cannot build anything in a city due to the corruption should ask for a rebate from Infogrames...
Piteous...
Venger |
1. I do not use lumberjacking. Yes I personally consider it a cheat and I hope they'll do something about it in the next patch.
2. However, I DO move 80 workers (sometimes more) around manually to do things and yes the game is still very fun for me.
3. I never automate anything in civ games. No governors, no autoworkers, no autopath, and yes I often check my cities to make sure that the city workers are on the optimal tiles. In fact I have never tried the autoworker thing......but the first time I saw 10 AI workers rushed to irrigate a single tile (they moved across my empire to an isolated city of theirs) I knew I was right......
4. Why does it bother you so much? MP is not out, until then, if you don't like it, don't use it. However I do agree that they need to do something (maybe option to turn off?) when MP comes out.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Velociryx
|
|
of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:16
|
|
Good points all around.
The reason I don't see it as an exploit though, is for the reason already stated. There is a limit, even under Despotism/Communism to the number of "Free" units an Empire has at its disposal, and of course, under Republic and Democracy, the limit is zero. Anything above your freebie limit, and you pay one gold a turn for each unit you have in the field.
Clearly then, you're not getting something for nothing in the case of lumberjacking. One way or the other, you're paying for it (1gold per turn, or the workers in question are occupying one of your free slots and you're paying 1g per turn for your troops).
The other reason is this: In SMAC MP, one of the mainstays of the game is the lowly Supply Crawler, which is put onto target tiles to harvest X, where X is the value of one resource type that the tile produces. This is merely an abstraction of the lumberjacking process (given that a Former's work is never quite done in SMAC, which makes it unlikely in the extreme that Formers would ever be relegated to traditional lumberjacking duties.
The argument that it is mindlessly repetitive is a good one, and probably the major reason it's not seeing widespread and consistent use.
Nonetheless, there IS an automation feature "auto-deforest" or whatever it is called.....easy enough to put a few workers on it and let them have at the trees (which most players cut down at one point or another simply because running a rail system over a forest nets you no additional gain.....you've gotta be rid of the trees and terraform it to gain a rail benefit.
-=Vel=-
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Monoriu
|
|
"Why would some of you guys not want to play with a lumberjacker? You could get 50+ free workers at once! Of course with all that production, you can bet it will be hard to take those 'jacks, but oh the rewards. "
Good question. I thought about it for a while and here is my answer:
1. Because I am lazy. (serious)
2. Because I have a fixed mindset on how I want to play the game and I don't want to insert something that is quite wierd into my cherished method (again, serious, not sacarsm).
3. Because I have a feeling that it maybe changed in the next patch.
4. Because I can stand on moral high ground on the forums and call it a cheat.
So, after thinking about it, none of the above reasons actually make any sense.
"Lumberjacking will not be moot after corruption is fixed, you will just have more money to support more workers to do it.
It is not a cheat and was built in the game as an intentional option for rushing things(except wonders which would be too powerful since firaxis wanted wonders to be hard to build). The manual mentions chopping down forests as a method for rushing stuff or helping to rush stuff. Just because planting a forest to chop it down again wasn't explicitly mentioned doesn't make it a cheat, doing so is really the only way that rushing by chopping down forests can be an option for very long. "
Thank you. I think I can justify to my consciene of using lumberjacking now. Cool, I'll have to try it out tonight.
"Auto-pathing in civ3 is now perfect in the sense that it will pick the shortest path(or one of the shortest paths) every time, but you still have to be careful, sometimes the longer, safer way is better."
K, I'll try it. Thanks.
Monoriu, recent convert to the lumberjacking technique
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Out4Blood
|
|
How does lumberjacking compare to Rush building everything in Despotism? I find workers too hard to rush (you lose TWO pop) and since I am using food and not shields...
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Venger
|
|
Keeper of the Can-O'Whoopass
Jan 1970
time: 23:16
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Monoriu
1. I do not use lumberjacking. Yes I personally consider it a cheat and I hope they'll do something about it in the next patch. |
Not sure what they could do. I think the reason people are using it is to help build in cities that have lost all but one shield to corruption. If they fix that, I think they fix this...
quote:
2. However, I DO move 80 workers (sometimes more) around manually to do things and yes the game is still very fun for me. |
Right there with you. I just think lumberjacking with them is tedious. Building infrastructure is NOT tedious...
I bet I have alot more than 80 workers in my current game (still on my first, can you believe it). Is there a way to tell how many units you have in the field? You could in Civ2, but that unfortunately doesn't mean anything anymore.
quote:
3. I never automate anything in civ games. |
Why let the AI do what I can do better?
quote:
4. Why does it bother you so much? MP is not out, until then, if you don't like it, don't use it. However I do agree that they need to do something (maybe option to turn off?) when MP comes out. |
Because it's number #491 in a list of things that tell me this product was rushed out the door without decent testing, and that gameplay lessons learned from Civ2 and SMAC apparently fell on deaf ears or small minds...that someone has to go to the trouble to exploit this just to deal with the broken corruption is the problem.
Venger
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Desert Journeyman
|
|
The Imperial Remnant
Jan 2001
time: 05:16
|
|
What is 'lumberjacking'? I have around 30+ workers terraforming all over my continent, because I began on jungle. Yet I have the feeling that conversation is not about this type of 'forest clearing', or is it?
What does this have to do with rushing production?
I like the idea of the worker, especially that it can be captured or used to build "colonies". Very excellent concept, if somewhat unwieldy during war-time.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Monoriu
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Venger
"I bet I have alot more than 80 workers in my current game (still on my first, can you believe it). Is there a way to tell how many units you have in the field? You could in Civ2, but that unfortunately doesn't mean anything anymore. "
Yes, press F3 for the military advisor, on the left side of the screen choose sort by unit (default is sort by city) and it will tell you how many units of each type you have.
Venger |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
solo
|
|
Lowell, MA USA
Jan 2001
time: 05:16
|
|
The solution to lumberjacking abuses would be to use the editor to increase the number of turns needed to replant a forest. Make it take 50 times as long as it takes to clear a forest to reflect the fact that trees can be cut down quickly, but that seedlings take many years to grow back into mature trees.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Monster
|
|
Sorry, I can't resist...
Lumberjack Song (by Monty Phyton)
BARBER:
I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay.
I sleep all night and I work all day.
MOUNTIES:
He's a lumberjack, and he's okay.
He sleeps all night and he works all day.
BARBER:
I cut down trees. I eat my lunch.
I go to the lavatory.
On Wednesdays I go shoppin'
And have buttered scones for tea.
MOUNTIES:
He cuts down trees. He eats his lunch.
He goes to the lavatory.
On Wednesdays he goes shoppin'
And has buttered scones for tea.
He's a lumberjack, and he's okay.
He sleeps all night and he works all day.
BARBER:
I cut down trees. I skip and jump.
I like to press wild flowers.
I put on women's clothing
And hang around in bars.
MOUNTIES:
He cuts down trees. He skips and jumps.
He likes to press wild flowers.
He puts on women's clothing
And hangs around in bars?!
He's a lumberjack, and he's okay.
He sleeps all night and he works all day.
BARBER:
I cut down trees. I wear high heels,
Suspendies, and a bra.
I wish I'd been a girlie,
Just like my dear Papa.
MOUNTIES:
He cuts down trees. He wears high heels,
Suspendies, and a bra?!
[talking]
What's this? Wants to be a girlie?! Oh, My!
And I thought you were so rugged! Poofter!
[singing]
He's a lumberjack, and he's okay.
He sleeps all night and he works all day.
He's a lumberjack, and he's okaaaaay.
He sleeps all night and he works all day.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Kaesar
|
|
Surrey, BC, Canada
Jan 1970
time: 05:16
|
|
Journeyman:
Lumberjacking is a way to rushbuild things. I personnally use it during mid or late games when I have tons of workers with nothing to do. Here it goes:
After you have researched engineering, your workers can plant forests. It takes 4 turns. Clearing forests takes 4 turns and yields 10 shields. But, it seems the game calculates that turn at the moment you assign the order, so you can actually plant a forest instantaneously by sending 4 workers to plant on the same square, and then sending 4 workers to cut down the forest. If you have extra workers, it's a great way to make more shields, and if you are an industrious civ, then the work is done in half the time.
My Rational for Lumberjacking:
So with 40 industrious workers, you can create 100 extra shields, and that's why it seems like cheating. BUT...... it's been said before, Firaxis already has thought about this and that's why you can't do this with wonders, palace, and space ships. You can only lumberjack rush with improvements and units. Plus, you can't switch to wonders, palace and space ships after you have lumberjacked even once(I've tried it, it doesn't work. You can only switch if you haven't rushed in any sort of way). So in my own conscience it is not cheating. It is a thought out game feature.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Desert Journeyman
|
|
The Imperial Remnant
Jan 2001
time: 05:16
|
|
Does it work with jungle squares? This could be just the "jump" ahead I need to outdo the overwhealming 7 civilizations coming at me ...
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Roytheboy
|
|
What is the point of the replant function if the game designers didnt want lumberjacking ?
Can you just turn off replanting in the editor if you don't like lumberjacking ?
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Boney
|
|
Thailand
Jan 2001
time: 05:16
|
|
Kaesar, actually 40 workers, by your premise of 4 turns to grow and 4 turns to cut would produce 50 shields, not one hundred. Growing does not gain any shields.
|
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:16.
Apolyton Time is 00:16. |
top of page
|
| archivepost |
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
22-11-2001 02:05
|