26-11-2001 07:57									#61
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Re: Lake vs. Coast, this is a known bug reported in the Official Apolyton Bug List. The manual and civilopedia clearly state that there is a terrain type named "Fresh Water Lake" which produces 2/0/2 and can be used as a source of irrigation. However, this terrain type is incorrectly reported as "Coast" when right-clicking on the map. You can tell the difference between "Fresh Water Lake" and "Coast" by the production 2/0/2 or 1/0/2.

	26-11-2001 08:37									#62
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quote: The units can travel between tiles that touch only on a corner but youi can't irrigate unless you cheat.

Yes, you can- this isn't Civ 2. Any square that touches one that's irrigated or a river may be irrigated in turn.

quote: Re: Lake vs. Coast, this is a known bug reported in the Official Apolyton Bug List. The manual and civilopedia clearly state that there is a terrain type named "Fresh Water Lake" which produces 2/0/2 and can be used as a source of irrigation. However, this terrain type is incorrectly reported as "Coast" when right-clicking on the map. You can tell the difference between "Fresh Water Lake" and "Coast" by the production 2/0/2 or 1/0/2.

Alright, I checked the Civilopedia and that is the only place I could find reference to it. I scoured the manual and didn't see anything, so please, if there is a mentioning point me to the page, I'd be interested in seeing it.

But that still doesn't change the basic fact that the AI does not cheat in this manner.

	26-11-2001 09:58									#63
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My automated workers have done the same thing in my game. I was actually surprised at how smart they are, I had a city on plains that couldn't grow and a worker built irrigation all the way from a river about 3/4 of a screen away (in 1280x1024) to the city (parts of it diagonal, the irrigated squares only touching at the corners), and then once the city had irrigation it built mines in it's usual checkerboard pattern, which cut off the chain of irrigation.

There are two things that the AI workers will do that I haven't seen my automated workers do yet, and that's build fortresses and build colonies. The AI in one of my games had a long road snaking up to a colony on an iron resource, and in another game the AI built a fortress at a choke point between our empires. I believe the AI can give the workers orders other than just Automate, but that's not needed to explain the not-so-mysterious irrigation picture posted, as mine have done the exact same thing.

	26-11-2001 17:49									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Cian McGuire Alright, I checked the Civilopedia and that is the only place I could find reference to it. I scoured the manual and didn't see anything, so please, if there is a mentioning point me to the page, I'd be interested in seeing it.

Well, I'll be the first to admit the manual has problems, especially with the tables. There are several places Lake should appear but doesn't.

See p. 40, last paragraph; p. 60, penultimate paragraph.

	26-11-2001 18:01									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Psiwar Osweld, when you right click on a lake what does it say? When i right clicked that one it said it was coast. So, coast can not be used for irrigation before Electricity, right? Also, there is no fresh water coming from Odessa because that's where i am. I'll would post the savegame here but it's to big.

When you right click a Lake, it says Coast, but it is Freshwater lake because it is not connected to an Ocean. I know, i irrigate like crazy, manually at first until i got bored.

It is possible for Human player to do what the Russians did, then plant mines over that disconnected link. I have done such things before and it is possible to irrigate between mountain/hill tiles., diagonally.

And it is just irrigation people! geez. And it is possible to recreate the speed the AI is expanding and etc. Just takes a lot of patient and time to keep track of everything, which the Comp as the advantage in.

-LMP

	27-11-2001 06:46									#66
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quote: Well, I'll be the first to admit the manual has problems, especially with the tables. There are several places Lake should appear but doesn't. See p. 40, last paragraph; p. 60, penultimate paragraph.

Yeah, I've read those, and in both cases it fails to say anything about an actual terrain *tile*.

Oh well.

	28-11-2001 00:47									#67
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In spite of the known bug surrounding fresh water and the mines on top of irrigation possibility, it does still look like cheating because of that one undeveloped square in between the mines near St Petersburg and the irrigation near Minsk. If Minsk has irrigation then that square would have at some point to have been been irrigated to keep the "unbroken line" of squares - but it isn't and it isn't mined either...
Could barbarians have arrived by sea and pillaged it? Or is that stretching coincidence a bit?

	28-11-2001 00:59									#68
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But in spite of the known misidentifying of lakes bug, and the possibility that mines have been built on top of irrigation, it still looks like cheating because there is a completely undeveloped square between the mines near St Petersburg and the irrigation near Minsk. This square would have had to be irrigated if there was an unbroken line from the lake in the south...
Barbarians might have arrived by sea and pillaged it, but is that stretching coincidence a bit too far?

	28-11-2001 02:31									#69
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Underneath the wheat 2 spaces south of Minsk? Nope, there's a mine under there- it's just that the game places any resource icons on top of improvements to allow them to be easier to see.

	28-11-2001 02:49									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Fromage That is a lake. They have irrigated everything from there. It's 480 AD, so they have had time time remove irrigation near ST. Petersburg. AI doesn't cheat. Perhaps you just have to think AI cheats, because you have to explain your losses somehow. It's easier to shout "CHEATER!" than admit that you just suck too much for that level

Man, you're mean! Are you French or French-Canadian?