25-11-2001 05:16									#1
	AI caught cheating Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I only play in regent level because i like no cheats either against or for the AI. I don't mind that the AI is agressive and performs ICS and swordsman rushes because that's the way it should be played (specially expansionist civs). But...

I'm a reasonable good player and i know when i'm bulding settlers very fast but still, i could not even come near to the speed in witch the AI buidls them. I lost 2 games because of this approach (trying to build as fast as them) because i got rushed by swordsman later on. The Russians are particular good at this. :P

I began to suspect that some cheating was involved but i didn't had profs. I know that the AI puts all cities building settler even when they dont have the right size but something is fishy.

Finally, i got my prove on tape about the AI cheating.
Just look at the picture i've attached. How can the Russians have irrigation? There is no river or lake in their land! And Minsk (top) is the biggest scandal. Completly surrounded by ocean water and full of irrigation tile. While my civ at the south as to strugle to find food enough to grow.

This is even worst than cheating, it's breaking the rules!

Attachment: cheaters.jpg
This has been downloaded 1208 time(s).

	25-11-2001 05:32									#2
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I hope the computer is not breaking rules (otherwise it is horrible ).

Anyway, I think what is happening in that picture can be possible. There is a tiny lake near the bottom city so the computer just had to irrigate all the way up from that. Some of the squares are empty possibly because the computer irrigated it but switched it to a mine or planted a forest and so on (depends on how late you are in the game and so forth).

KoalaBear33

	25-11-2001 05:34									#3
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What I said above makes a lot of sense... if you look, you can see that all the irrigated squares are connected, except for in 2 locations (where there are mines).... This gives me a good idea. Maybe I should start doing what the computer is doing

KoalaBear33

	25-11-2001 05:36									#4
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No, I've noticed the irrigation thing, too...
Not often, but perhaps 30% of my games.

	25-11-2001 05:39									#5
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EDIT: On second look at the picture what i was going to say didn't make any sense.

	25-11-2001 06:24									#6
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No, that is all possible- they irrigated the northeast (7 spot) of Moscow, then up and down the coast, then built mines over the irrigation for a shield enhancement.

	25-11-2001 07:17									#7
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1. That tile that looks like a lake says coast when i right click on it.
2. Even if it was a lake tile, he coudn't got water out because the lake is surrounded by mountains/hills.
3. Even if he could have gotten the water out thru Moscow, i monitored that area thru the years and never saw anything else than mines surrounding Moscow.

Still i agree with you guys that it's possible. I didn't know that cities worked as an irrigation "conductor".

	25-11-2001 07:43									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Psiwar 1. That tile that looks like a lake says coast when i right click on it. 2. Even if it was a lake tile, he coudn't got water out because the lake is surrounded by mountains/hills. 3. Even if he could have gotten the water out thru Moscow, i monitored that area thru the years and never saw anything else than mines surrounding Moscow. Still i agree with you guys that it's possible. I didn't know that cities worked as an irrigation "conductor".

If I remember correctly, cities are automatically irrigated (along with having a road).... Unless you are paying close attention (ie. watching every turn), it is easy to miss a switch from irrigation to mine.

KoalaBear33

	25-11-2001 08:11									#9
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It's cheating, alright.

The body of water near the Cities is all made up by Coast tiles and this tiles wouldn't form a Freshwater body of water if the area surrrounding them is not enclosed by land. Now Psiwar is a knowledgeable player, I suppose. He knows which one is a lake and which one is not.

Very good job, Psiwar. Now if we show this picture to Soren and let him speak the truth. Uhh, this is going to be interesting.

	25-11-2001 08:20									#10
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BTW Koala33, cities before the founding of Electricity cannot become an Irrigation conductor if its tile is not adjacent to any irrigated tile(s) or Freshwater tile(s).

Road is ofcourse not a prerequisite of Irrigation.

From the pic, Moscow is NOT cheating (notice the adjacent lake).
St. Pete, Odessa, and Minsk DO cheat (if the body of water near to them is really a Sea, not just part of a huge Lake).

	25-11-2001 08:35									#11
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Is that square directly south of Odessa irrigated? It looks like it is, but it is hard to tell because of the button. If it is, then Odessa would also be considered irrigated. This allows the square directly north to be irrigated and by consequence, the entire network. Is there a source of fresh water south and west of Odessa?

	25-11-2001 08:56									#12
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Brothers!!!

Maybe one of us can volunteer to make a edited map without any source of water. Then will be easy to see if AI cheats on this or not.

To balance things a bit and do not make it so boring tons of wheat, game,fish should be placed.

So what do you think of this idea?

	25-11-2001 09:00									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Baloo Now Psiwar is a knowledgeable player, I suppose.

I am sure he is! He is Portuguese...

	25-11-2001 09:45									#14
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That is a lake.

If it a body of water has no ocean, it's fresh water.

	25-11-2001 10:27									#15
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Osweld, when you right click on a lake what does it say?

When i right clicked that one it said it was coast. So, coast can not be used for irrigation before Electricity, right?

Also, there is no fresh water coming from Odessa because that's where i am.

I'll would post the savegame here but it's to big.

	25-11-2001 10:28									#16
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Another cheating thing I have noticed is with Strategic Resources!! Has anyone alse noticed that the AI gets automatic access to some strategic resources like saltpeter!! In my last game I shared my continent with the Germans, I had the only source of saltpeter but they somehow also had access. Only way I can think of is trade, but just does not add up (most other civs either did not have the tech or only had one source).

Has anyone else noticed this as I find this very annoying!!

	25-11-2001 10:30									#17
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Freshwater lakes call themselves Coast. The only way to tell the difference is that saltwater Coast is 1 food, 2 commerce and freshwater Coast is 2 food, 2 commerce.

-Sev

	25-11-2001 10:49									#18
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Also I am currently in a game where I seem to have the only coal, and saltpeter is not too common either.

If that picture had no lake shown then maybe we should be concerned. Also note the computer can use your irrigation to make his own.

	25-11-2001 11:56									#19
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LOL- there is no Freshwater tile.

Any body of water not connected to the *main* body of water is considered a lake.

	25-11-2001 13:07									#20
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Boy...

Firaxis is becoming greater and greater since Yin was the first to say that Civ III was a beta...


Hey Yin, you know you were 2 weeks before time? Maybe you should play stockmarket.

	25-11-2001 13:54									#21
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That is a lake. They have irrigated everything from there. It's 480 AD, so they have had time time remove irrigation near ST. Petersburg.

AI doesn't cheat. Perhaps you just have to think AI cheats, because you have to explain your losses somehow. It's easier to shout "CHEATER!" than admit that you just suck too much for that level

	25-11-2001 14:22									#22
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I understand what you are thinking Fromage, but it's true the AI cheats. I wouldn't ever use that word to describe it though, because it sounds like whining. What the AI does to increase it's difficulty on higher levels is lower the number of sheilds for things, lower the amount of food for population growth, and probably other things like lowering corruption. It's too bad that they can't just be wiser, smarter, and more devilish to increase the difficulty, but they have to resort to mathematically stacking the game against you. The AI will get more units, buildings, techs, everything, and you have to be a super player to outwit blatant "cheating" on these higher difficulty levels.

Last edited by Lord Chambers on 25-11-2001 at 14:57

	25-11-2001 14:27									#23
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Hi, some things I've noticed in my games:

- City's do work as irrigation conductors if they are linked to an irrigated square or a source of fresh water. The inland lake is fresh water so every elligible square around Moscow can be irrigated.

- The computer does not have 'automatic' access to saltpeter (you should have seen the begging of the French for salpeter in my last game while their empire was slowly eaten away by the germans

- The map does not contain anything that is impossible so I think cheating is not proven (yet). I must say the computer gives a hell of a fight on regent level, but it's possible to stay on a par with the computer by making good use of the special resources. (In my last game I even grew faster than any computer opponent, only to be burned to the ground when I didn't have Iron and my hated enemies the Russians noticed that when the showed up with swordman on the doorstep of my palace

Ah well... back to the drawing board I guess

	25-11-2001 14:52									#24
	Support Apolyton

It is the inland lake that is providing the irrigation for the Russians. Stop making a big fuss without taking the time to inspect the situation closely.

And if the AI cheats, it will be in the area of bonuses that will be hidden from the players. There is no need for them to cheat so obviously as to irrigate without having a source of fresh water. The AI could simply be given food or production bonuses without the player even knowing.

But according to Soren, the AI programmer, there are NO AI cheats/bonuses below Prince difficulty. And even the cheating the AI does is just mostly enhancement bonuses, no build improvement in one turn at no cost type deal.

	25-11-2001 15:41									#25
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The difference between difficulty levels is AI aggression and bonuses/penalties to food, shield and commerce production. What this means is that you can have an easier game without haveing a clueless opponent. Other than this the game does not cheat.

	25-11-2001 17:00									#26
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Yep, I should've said "Freshwater" tiles instead of leaving it without a quote, even though I know there's no such thing as a Freshwater tile. Do you just love people correcting other people mistakes? Thx, BTW. I mean it.

About a huge lake, look at the mini-map. There's no huge lake overthere. And, hello - Minsk is NOT connected to any irrigation that's allegedly comes from a source of lake or river (St. Pete and Odessa is - I should
ve corrected my earlier statements). Check it out. If you spend the game more than 2 hours, you might already know how to irrigate your land.

Scepticism is a blessing, not a bane.

	25-11-2001 17:10									#27
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"Minsk is NOT connected to any irrigation " So what? It doesn't matter, because couple of hundred years ago it was connected to that lake near moscow. After that AI build mines south of the Minsk, so there aren't any connection anymore.

Hmm. What huge lake? It's 1x1 lake east of Moscow. That is the source of water.

	25-11-2001 17:34									#28
	Inflate your Upload Space

If the computer cheats, then atleast it's fair. In my first few games, back when I still trusted the fully automated workers, I noticed things like this happening in my own territory as well.

This leads me to believe that either I am very unobservant, or there is a bug in the automated worker AI...

	25-11-2001 18:51									#29
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Ok. This screenshot takes all doubts away. I had never come across a lake in my games so i was thinking that the tile would say something like fresh water. Also, that tile is connected to the sea by position 5 and i thought that a lake should be completly inclosed by land (all tiles around it with land).

It was never my intention to to whine or call the AI cheater to "hide" my defeats. I started a new game with an industrious civ and my starting position had a good food output. With the combination of both it was possible to spit out settlers twice as fast. I understand the need that the AI has to do ICS better than you because it needs to compensate for it's poor strategy.

The bottom line is that the russians are mean.

So, the world is still flat (?) and we can all sleep better because Civ3 is great indeed. (just needs that patch)

Attachment: itsalake.jpg
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	25-11-2001 18:59									#30
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This is not shocking. The very same cheat was in civ2. I have several former AI-cities that have irrigation and no source of fresh water. This is on Emperor level. Some of these cities was even irrigated without workers and in the 10-20 turns it was capital before being conquered.