27-11-2001 04:08									#31
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"I read a book about Genetically engineered super-humans that were 6 foot tall.....built for war and had excellent marksmanship...profiles.....endurance.all genetic traits. They cloned 800 million of these soldiers and nothing in the world could stop them. All armys became obsolete over-night as these super-men waged war against the nations of the earth and the humans were unable to reproduce at such rates...and eventually lost.'

-And who can feed that many people and train them? You do realize that clones start out as normal babies, and there's very little we could do to make them mature faster. Any third world dictator who tries it will just starve his nation.

	27-11-2001 04:08									#32
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You guys flame on some other thread please

Now I wonder if anybody shares my concerns that I mentioned above about all this?

	27-11-2001 04:09									#33
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quote: Tho while I believe this research needs to go forward for medical reasons.

As do I.

quote: I do fear some issues and I wonder if you too are worried mark...

Not really. For reasons described below.

quote: I read a book about Genetically engineered super-humans that were 6 foot tall.....built for war and had excellent marksmanship...profiles.....endurance.all genetic traits. They cloned 800 million of these soldiers and nothing in the world could stop them. All armys became obsolete over-night as these super-men waged war against the nations of the earth and the humans were unable to reproduce at such rates...and eventually lost.

Don't believe all you read. We are talking about cloning embryos here, not making a human being from scratch. We can copy, we can't design.

quote: I am also concerned about "Designer Babies". I dont want walking Clones amongst us. We shouldnt grow life like this...no love..no soul.....no chemistry.....Just made to look exactly like someone else that created them.

This is a common misconception. It really doesn't make any sense, since cloned people will be identical to "natural" people. They all feel emotions including love, they all have "souls" (whatever that might be). This is not a valid argument against cloning.

	27-11-2001 04:09									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Is it legal for me to hold an opinion around here?

You have barely even stated an opinion in this discussion, pretty much all you are doing is telling people that their opinion is wrong, and not backing it up with anything.

	27-11-2001 04:10									#35
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"Is it legal for me to hold an opinion around here?"

-Absolutely. You can hold that there is no God. I don't think too many people around here will jump on you for that one.

	27-11-2001 04:11									#36
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er....Markl....There's a problem with your OP....


As long as Europeans dislike gentically engineered products, Europe will remain behind America.

Sorry.

	27-11-2001 04:12									#37
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Okay Osweld, I will state my opinion. I am against Cloning in any way because I don't like the idea of it. It is disturbing. There. Thank you and have a nice day.

	27-11-2001 04:13									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Victor Galis "I read a book about Genetically engineered super-humans that were 6 foot tall.....built for war and had excellent marksmanship...profiles.....endurance.all genetic traits. They cloned 800 million of these soldiers and nothing in the world could stop them. All armys became obsolete over-night as these super-men waged war against the nations of the earth and the humans were unable to reproduce at such rates...and eventually lost.' -And who can feed that many people and train them? You do realize that clones start out as normal babies, and there's very little we could do to make them mature faster. Any third world dictator who tries it will just starve his nation.

Good point......but what if it isnt a 3rd world nation? ya the book was silly...It all started when the Moon Colonists revolted and shot giant rocks at earth....the revolt was crushed and they rebels waged a secret war on earth by setting up a base and creating so many clones that were through the knowledge of the Human Genome...programmed to rise up at a certain date.

God I love Sci-Fi


Its still no doubt a concern that sombody is bound to exploit this!

	27-11-2001 04:14									#39
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quote: Stop being so patently ridiculous. So you, some teenage schoolboy who knows approaching zero on the issue is trying to lecture me, an Oxford biochemistry graduate, for example, that I am wrong because I don't share your political affiliation. Well I tell you what child, let's go head to head on the issue of biotechnology in painstaking detail, and discuss the real facts here. Your arse will be spread right across these forums in no time. So don't come the condescending crap with me, because it doesn't wash.

Well said! Giani here with no education presumes to know more than one of my friends who got his MA in Biotechnology and is working on his PhD. Funny.

	27-11-2001 04:17									#40
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quote: Its still no doubt a concern that sombody is bound to exploit this!

Somebody is bound to exploit everything. That doesn't mean apocalypse is near.

quote: I am against Cloning in any way because I don't like the idea of it. It is disturbing.

Why? Arguments please. And don't tell me "cause Bush said so''.

quote: As long as Europeans dislike gentically engineered products, Europe will remain behind America.

We are talking about medical purposes here, not consumer goods. Also, if the former proves succesfull, the latter will come eventually.

	27-11-2001 04:17									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Mark L Well said! Giani here with no education presumes to know more than one of my friends who got his MA in Biotechnology and is working on his PhD. Funny.

Go take your ****ing judgement out here... you are not a judge to indict what someone's education are. You also have no right to say my opinion is wrong without considering it.

	27-11-2001 04:18									#42
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Where's the AP link?

Just a couple of points

It's very clear that people will be able to genetically engineer their children in the coming future. You don't think they won't give them excellent eye sight, better stamina, etc in a heart beat. Just from people wanting their children to succeed, the military will have an excellent pool of foot soldiers to choose from. Some sinister government won't have to do it, they can let the public do it.

But why does everyone think they'll be mindless automotons, people aren't just their genes they are the sum of their experiences and unless we could somehow erase memories and implant others theres no reason to assume someone with the same genes as say Saddam will be and think just like Saddam.

	27-11-2001 04:19									#43
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The problems with GM crops is because of how greedy multinationals (*ahem* Monsanto *ahem*) manipulate technology to their own ends, and quite frankly, their implementation of crop modification has not been in line with the needs of humanity. High level pest resistance against all ecological advice? Terminator gene? These are the proper arguments against it. Not against the technology, but the way it is abused. You should try kicking up a stink about this kind of technology, not the cloning/stem cell research stuff, which is very much in the field of medicine. And as for cloning big armies, that would require a massively more sophisticated knowledge of the interaction of the genome. Something not even really in the scope of this technique. But remember, every powerful technology can be abused, that is the lesson of the argument. Fission gives the nuclear bomb yet gives nuclear power. Nothing is black and white. But as anything, if you can control the application of the technology (something that is allowed to run unchecked so often, and seemingly more so in the US as is the case with genetically modified lines), then you can reap the benefits of the technology, which medically speaking, are vast. Not only are the applications that can be envisaged dramatic, but what avenues may be opened as well...

	27-11-2001 04:20									#44
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Yup, just like its legal to point out when certain bald assertions are remarkably idiotic.

	27-11-2001 04:23									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Zhu Yuanzhang Yup, just like its legal to point out when certain bald assertions are remarkably idiotic.

Likewise. It isn't like you support anything you say with anything unbiased. Bald assertions? Were did that come from? I was speaking from my mind... leave Bush and all the scientists out of this.

	27-11-2001 04:25									#46
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quote: You also have no right to say my opinion is wrong without considering it.

Cause you don't have one. You say you're against, but you don't say why. Besides lame claims that Sadam will clone himself. And about your education...you're not even in University, so how high can your education be? And how can you possibly know more than people with a degree in that field?

quote: It's very clear that people will be able to genetically engineer their children in the coming future. You don't think they won't give them excellent eye sight, better stamina, etc in a heart beat. Just from people wanting their children to succeed, the military will have an excellent pool of foot soldiers to choose from. Some sinister government won't have to do it, they can let the public do it. But why does everyone think they'll be mindless automotons, people aren't just their genes they are the sum of their experiences and unless we could somehow erase memories and implant others theres no reason to assume someone with the same genes as say Saddam will be and think just like Saddam.

Good post, but very sci-fi. We are nowhere near that now in any form. That will take decades, if not centuries.

PH: excelent post (as all your posts in this thread). Same goes for VG.

	27-11-2001 04:30									#47
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quote: leave Bush and all the scientists out of this.

This whole thread is about Bush and scientists.

	27-11-2001 04:40									#48
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BAM is unusually hilarious today.

	27-11-2001 04:46									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo BAM is unusually hilarious today.

So you are talking about yourself being hilarious, ramo? After all you are BAM.

	27-11-2001 04:47									#50
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Yep, you are my dl.

	27-11-2001 04:49									#51
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Even if you cloned hitler.....he wouldnt be like the same hitler. He would be different. Maybe loving, caring, and humanitarian. All depends on how he would be raised

	27-11-2001 04:51									#52
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Even if you cloned hitler.....he wouldnt be like the same hitler. He would be different. Maybe loving, caring, and humanitarian. All depends on how he would be raised

But if you clone his brain... well, we haven't reached that yet. And he isn't buried anywhere, or is he?

	27-11-2001 04:54									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo But if you clone his brain... well, we haven't reached that yet. And he isn't buried anywhere, or is he?

Are you suggesting we make a zombie hitler?

	27-11-2001 04:57									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld Are you suggesting we make a zombie hitler?

Hello no.

	27-11-2001 05:05									#55
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cloning is immoral, as is creating life only to destroy it. bush made the right choice, there wasn't anything ignorant about it. although, he did prove that america has a much higher moral standard than the commie europeans who slaughter the young in an attempt to surpass us in technology and then brag about it as superior politics.

bush ethics
desperate, tech deprived eurocoms

	27-11-2001 05:13									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo But if you clone his brain...

Widespread panic has broken out in Paris and several other French cities already

	27-11-2001 05:14									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo But if you clone his brain... well, we haven't reached that yet. And he isn't buried anywhere, or is he?

Clone his brain? Gian, I know you mean well, you're trying to make your case, but you just don't know enough about cloning and biology etc. etc. etc. to be taken seriously on this topic, at least not when you say things like that. The brain is, like every other organ, a collection of cells. Organs themselves are not cloned; organs are grown from stem cells. Honestly, this is not something you should spend a lot of time worried about.

	27-11-2001 05:17									#58
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Everyone:

I imagine some good will come from scientific advances achieved in this fashion. I also imagine that some darkness will come from it as well. That's human nature. The question is: Will more good than darkness be derived from going down this particular scientific path? After all, two nuclear weapons were used in war following the refinement of atomic theory into fissionable weapons. What might the equivalent be in this arena?

As for the Europe vs. America crappola, I find it somewhat amusing that societies which have a phobia for GM food seem to have no problem harvesting the human genome for the perceived greater good. Wasn't it just a few months or so ago that many European governments were singing the same tune as our government in terms of creating embryos for the express purpose of harvesting stem cells from? IOW, opposed to it?

It would be nice if we could achieve these long-sought scientific breakthroughs w/o having to create, and then destroy, embryos in order to do it. Something's amiss with that approach, and I suspect it's rooted in ethicism and morality.

CYBERAmazon

	27-11-2001 06:44									#59
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Bad news about the US banning cloning. This will IMO hamper medical research.

Very good news about the European governments' openness to this technology. I must say I am pleasantly surprised.

Before Europe can gain a lead in biotech, though, we also have to allow genetically modified crops and get rid of those freakish animal rights activists, who seriously impede animal testing - especially in Britain.

Only once the above is accomplished will I be confident that Europe can pull ahead in biotech.

	27-11-2001 07:32									#60
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PH and CA, how much will the restrictions affect US biotech research. How much of a percent impact on our companies? (in terms of lost discovery space).

[sarcastic comment] human vivisection would also be extremely useful for helping drug development.[/sarcastic comment]