27-11-2001 03:10									#1
	US plans to ban cloning, Europe taking up this oportunity to get ahead in research Remove this text

Bush and other American politicians made it clear that cloning in whatever form is going to be banned.

Meanwhile, in Europe various countries are deciding to legalise cloning, thus creating a haven for bio-tech engineers, researchers and scientists worldwide. Holland is ahead as usual, the governement is going to allow cloning (with possible subsidies even) next month. I believe other European countries have been working in the same direction.

The results of this are obvious. Biotech companies worldwide will focus their efforts in Europe and will leave the US en mass, at least the parts of their companies that are involved with cloning. This means that new medical breakthroughs will come from Europe, and Europe will catch up and overtake the US in a matter of years in that field.

Since I'm personally, and most dutchmen with me, 100% for cloning for medical purposes, and since I personally would love to see Europe surpassing the US in this research field (or any research field), I think this is a great development!


And I want to give my thanks to President Shrubya for making a stupid choice for his country, and for making a great choice for Europe. Who knows, maybe in a year or so we'll here Bush say that America's future lies in Europe

NOTE: That last part was a troll of course, and shouldn't be taken too seriously.

	27-11-2001 03:14									#2
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What kind of cloning are you talking about?

	27-11-2001 03:20									#3
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Embrionic cloning, like that American company just announced two days ago.

	27-11-2001 03:25									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld What kind of cloning are you talking about?

What kinds do you know???

quote: Since I'm personally, and most dutchmen with me, 100% for cloning for medical purposes

I hope that Belgium follows quickly.

quote: and since I personally would love to see Europe surpassing the US in this research field (or any research field), I think this is a great development!

Second that one

Shade

	27-11-2001 03:28									#5
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Yes, our government is rushing the legislation through as soon as it can. It is strange to watch the religious right in the US slam the door on this vital area of research and giving the rest of the world a major head start. Very strange, in terms of biotech, it is unlike the US to look a gifthorse in the mouth. True ignorance at work here people...

	27-11-2001 03:33									#6
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I don't see how you can mess with evolution. Anybody that tries should be shot. Simple.

As you notice I support this ban... cloning does nothing to help anybody besides mess with the evolutionary chain. It is disturbing.

You dumb North Europeans think this would solve everything... just wait until Saddam gets his hands on this. He will clone himself.

	27-11-2001 03:35									#7
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Reilgous rant:

I think that creating an actual...souless...human is scary. Im thinking along the lines of frankstien (were mentioning the birth defects of cloning that are irreversable.....)


But along the lines of Stem Cells...Since clones 'arent' considered life I dont see whats the big deal. Were gonna need the stem cells. Better to take the coating out of Microscopic embryos and mulitply them then Discarded fetus from abortion which might potentially create some sort of Abortion-for-cash-market.

	27-11-2001 03:36									#8
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Your desire/glee for Europe to be better at anything always amuses me. It shows a real insecurity on your part.

Yes, a little teasing.

Some food for thought.
You're making the assumption that making it illegal is going to stop it in the US. You are obviously not a student of US history. It will just be done more discretely. As long as money is involved, there are always many willing to cross the line. It's just that their accomplishments will appear in Journals that will say the research was done somewhere else. And many people will just wink.

I won't even discuss what would happen if the US military decides that it has potential.


RAH

	27-11-2001 03:37									#9
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So Britain is going ahead with legalisation as well. Very nice indeed! I also believe Italy and France is taking steps in that direction, but I'm not completely sure about that. But it's great news, it will incease Europe's prestigese in the field of research, it will help Europe's economy, it will weaken the US, and most importantly...it will deliver cures for some of the worst illnesses in the world. Cancer, diabetes, parkinson, etc. My thanks goes out to the researchers, for helping in getting rid of these illnesses once and for all. Though probably only in Europe, since it will illegal in the US and many other countries. This will create bizarre situations in which people from all over the world will go to Europe to get treated, because their own countries don't allow them to get treatement there. Very sad.

	27-11-2001 03:38									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo I don't see how you can mess with evolution. Anybody that tries should be shot. Simple. As you notice I support this ban... cloning does nothing to help anybody besides mess with the evolutionary chain. It is disturbing. You dumb North Europeans think this would solve everything... just wait until Saddam gets his hands on this. He will clone himself.

Giancarlo, you don't have the vaguest notion what this technique is about. It is not about cloning people but being able to produce cell lines at will, eg, easily available skin grafts, transplant organs with no risk of rejection, nerve repair, things that to our present medical knowledge are a dream.

So keep going Giancarlo, you are proving beyond a shadow of a doubt there is no end to your ignorance. Stop towing the party line, because you don't have the vaguest notion what these techniques are about. Sounds like you are towing a very 'catholic' line on this issue. Strange for a self-professed atheist.

	27-11-2001 03:41									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Mark L So Britain is going ahead with legalisation as well. Very nice indeed! I also believe Italy and France is taking steps in that direction, but I'm not completely sure about that. But it's great news, it will incease Europe's prestigese in the field of research, it will help Europe's economy, it will weaken the US, and most importantly...it will deliver cures for some of the worst illnesses in the world. Cancer, diabetes, parkinson, etc. My thanks goes out to the researchers, for helping in getting rid of these illnesses once and for all. Though probably only in Europe, since it will illegal in the US and many other countries. This will create bizarre situations in which people from all over the world will go to Europe to get treated, because their own countries don't allow them to get treatement there. Very sad.

It won't weaken the US and you don't know if it will help at all. Afterall messing with the evolutionary chain will cause devastation.

quote: Sounds like you are towing a very 'catholic' line on this issue. Strange for a self-professed atheist.

So all atheists belong to one group of opinions? Uh no. Catholic? Nope, god doesn't exist, I am using different elements to fight this.

	27-11-2001 03:44									#12
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Giancarlo: Stop your ignorance please. This is used for curing illnesses, not cloning Hitler. And even if one could clone Hitler it will mean nothing at all since he will turn out completely different. Please go take a psychology class. Please. And after that a biology class. You need it.

quote: Your desire/glee for Europe to be better at anything always amuses me. It shows a real insecurity on your part. Yes, a little teasing.

Fair indeed

quote: You're making the assumption that making it illegal is going to stop it in the US. You are obviously not a student of US history. It will just be done more discretely. As long as money is involved, there are always many willing to cross the line. It's just that their accomplishments will appear in Journals that will say the research was done somewhere else. And many people will just wink.

Why on Earth would any company go through all that, if it can just get settled somewhere else legally. Doesn't make much sense to me. It's a global economy now, we aren't stuck in some 1930s-type ban.

	27-11-2001 03:46									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo So all atheists belong to one group of opinions? Uh no. Catholic? Nope, god doesn't exist, I am using different elements to fight this.

Giancarlo, what you quoted was pseudoscientific drivel. Effect the evolutionary line. Excuse me? It is what we have done since the dawn of civilisation in crop breeding, and more refined recently in genetic modification of crops. So your argument falls flat on it's face.

Evolution doesn't come into this at all because the aim is not to produce a new line of humans but to produce stem cells with the genome of a human, from which skin, nerve tissue, liver or a new heart could potentially be grown in the right kind of environment. This is why the technique is so essential, not to generate an ubermensch or an army of beefy brainless clones.

	27-11-2001 03:47									#14
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Good for Bush.

	27-11-2001 03:47									#15
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quote: It won't weaken the US and you don't know if it will help at all.

On second thought, take a course in economics first. Let me spell it out for you. Biotech companies that clone will leave the USA. Companies leaving is not good for the economy. On top of that, the USA will fall behind in technology in this field. As simple as 1+1.

quote: I am using different elements to fight this.

Yes. Ignorance and stupidity.

	27-11-2001 03:49									#16
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Mark L.......nobody will be going to Europe for treatment any time soon. (Give the technology/bio-researchers 10 more years)

The neccessary things will be shipped. Just not researched. And for once the Euro's will profit from somthing of there own making.

	27-11-2001 03:49									#17
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quote: Good for Bush.

I'm sure Europe will thank him too jk

Giancarlo: We have been cloning plants and animals for quite some time now. What''s the freakin difference? A lot of food you eat is genetically altered. Ever thought about that?

Please take some more courses in school. Please. You need it if you want to become a lawyer someday. You're too far behind others of your age it seems.

	27-11-2001 03:50									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Mark L On second thought, take a course in economics first. Let me spell it out for you. Biotech companies that clone will leave the USA. Companies leaving is not good for the economy. On top of that, the USA will fall behind in technology in this field. As simple as 1+1.

Alright you are entitled to whatever bullshit you have flushed down your pathetic mind. You do realise that more research in this area could bring up a new era of weaponry, biological and chemical kinds.

quote: Yes. Ignorance and stupidity.

Oh, so Mr. Judgement here can judge my opinion. *******.

	27-11-2001 03:52									#19
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quote: Mark L.......nobody will be going to Europe for treatment any time soon. (Give the technology/bio-researchers 10 more years)

Well duh I'm talking long-term here. We're still years away from actually curing all those terrible illnesses. But we are definently making great progress! Thumbs up for biotech researchers!

	27-11-2001 03:53									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Mark L I'm sure Europe will thank him too

Possibly but that's not anywhere near my main concern in this case, Mark L.

	27-11-2001 03:56									#21
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quote: You do realise that more research in this area could bring up a new era of weaponry, biological and chemical kinds.

You are a conservative right? And a republican? And pro-US? How do you feel about Nuclear Power and research? See what it did in Japan 1945. How about all the CBN weapons the US currently has? don''t become a hypocrite please. You really believe everything Bush shoves down your throat. Can''t you form your own opinion for once? If you are so terrified of new weapons, then I''m sure you must be against everything the US has in stock, and all the research the US is still doing in those fields.

	27-11-2001 03:58									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Mark L You are a conservative right? And a republican? And pro-US? How do you feel about Nuclear Power and research? See what it did in Japan 1945. How about all the CBN weapons the US currently has? don''t become a hypocrite please. You really believe everything Bush shoves down your throat. Can''t you form your own opinion for once? If you are so terrified of new weapons, then I''m sure you must be against everything the US has in stock, and all the research the US is still doing in those fields.

Hypocrit, eh? How do I feel about the Bush reduction in missiles and the defense system? Very well.

You form your opinion and stop listening to your communist traitors.

	27-11-2001 03:58									#23
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quote: Possibly but that's not anywhere near my main concern in this case, Mark L.

Let's put it this way. I'm sure people with cancer, diabetes, parkinson's, etc will NOT thank Bush. Think about them for a sec. How would you feel if the governement denied your right to proper treatement?

	27-11-2001 04:00									#24
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"It is strange to watch the religious right in the US slam the door on this vital area of research and giving the rest of the world a major head start. Very strange, in terms of biotech, it is unlike the US to look a gifthorse in the mouth. True ignorance at work here people"

-Well, you know how I keep saying this American dominance in most things will end soon and the American Empire will crumble by itself. Well, see, Conservatives are people who don't believe me, and want to help the process along

"I don't see how you can mess with evolution. Anybody that tries should be shot. Simple"

-Sounds like something a 13th century clergyman would say... well, replace evolution, and shot with burnt at the stake.

"He will clone himself"

-Oooh! Another baby Iraqi mouth to feed... so threatening. It's sad how people don't understand the real implications of cloning research

"You're making the assumption that making it illegal is going to stop it in the US. You are obviously not a student of US history. It will just be done more discretely. As long as money is involved, there are always many willing to cross the line. It's just that their accomplishments will appear in Journals that will say the research was done somewhere else. And many people will just wink"

-Still puts something of a damper on things. Thank Allah Bush has other things to worry about (Now, I just know this comment will be misinterpreted. I am thanking this myth of Allah that bin Laden used to launch his suicide bombers at the US. No, Allah and paradise story equals no suicide bombers.)

"It won't weaken the US and you don't know if it will help at all. Afterall messing with the evolutionary chain will cause devastation."

-Silly us, here we are worrying about human cloning, when people around us can't even read

	27-11-2001 04:00									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Mark L Well duh I'm talking long-term here. We're still years away from actually curing all those terrible illnesses. But we are definently making great progress! Thumbs up for biotech researchers!

Tho while I believe this research needs to go forward for medical reasons. I do fear some issues and I wonder if you too are worried mark...

I read a book about Genetically engineered super-humans that were 6 foot tall.....built for war and had excellent marksmanship...profiles.....endurance.all genetic traits. They cloned 800 million of these soldiers and nothing in the world could stop them. All armys became obsolete over-night as these super-men waged war against the nations of the earth and the humans were unable to reproduce at such rates...and eventually lost.

I am also concerned about "Designer Babies". I dont want walking Clones amongst us. We shouldnt grow life like this...no love..no soul.....no chemistry.....Just made to look exactly like someone else that created them.

i have many others but I wonder if you share some of these concerns.

	27-11-2001 04:01									#26
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quote: Hypocrit, eh? How do I feel about the Bush reduction in missiles and the defense system? Very well.

How about all the ICBMs the US still has? How about all the research in weapons of mass destruction that is still being financed and conducted?

quote: You form your opinion and stop listening to your communist traitors.

Oh grow up giani. There are not communists here, and it doesn't offend anyone. It only makes clear that nobody takes you seriously.

	27-11-2001 04:01									#27
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I feel bad for people who have such uninformed opinions... basically all leftists here.

	27-11-2001 04:05									#28
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"Alright you are entitled to whatever bullshit you have flushed down your pathetic mind. You do realise that more research in this area could bring up a new era of weaponry, biological and chemical kinds."

-As if we can't already destroy the world a hundred times over

"How do I feel about the Bush reduction in missiles and the defense system?"

-Good and bad. THe missile defense system will only further destablize the current balance of power.

"You form your opinion and stop listening to your communist traitors"

-Which communist traitor would that be. Identify the party line we're toeing? What's that, you can't?

	27-11-2001 04:06									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo I feel bad for people who have such uninformed opinions... basically all leftists here.

Stop being so patently ridiculous. So you, some teenage schoolboy who knows approaching zero on the issue is trying to lecture me, an Oxford biochemistry graduate, for example, that I am wrong because I don't share your political affiliation. Well I tell you what child, let's go head to head on the issue of biotechnology in painstaking detail, and discuss the real facts here. Your arse will be spread right across these forums in no time. So don't come the condescending crap with me, because it doesn't wash.

	27-11-2001 04:06									#30
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Is it legal for me to hold an opinion around here?