27-11-2001 07:45									#61
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quote: Originally posted by GP PH and CA, how much will the restrictions affect US biotech research. How much of a percent impact on our companies? (in terms of lost discovery space).

GP, et al.:

Hmm ... since I am not an economist nor very familiar with the firms that actually do the biotech work, anything I offer would be mere opinion.

With that in mind, I don't think U.S. biotech firms would move to Europe. Not at the rate they tax over there, anyhow. I do, however, think that the companies wouldn't be too hard pressed to spin off European-based subsidiaries or simply move the biotech part of their operations over to the Continent (someone else on this thread mentions that, too). Of course, Europe isn't necessarily *the* destination, either, as there are plenty of countries out there who might not have a problem hosting biotech research that delves into the human embryo side of research.

Personally, I don't think a ban will be enacted. Restrictions, yes, but no ban. When it comes to Republicans and Democrats, soft money seems to win the day most of the time, not ethics or morals.

CYBERAmazon

	27-11-2001 08:35									#62
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MarkL plans to troll, Ted Striker taking up this opportunity to point at him and laugh!

	27-11-2001 08:47									#63
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No 'Soul'? What the **** is a "soul"? I've never seen one....

How much does one of these soul things weigh? What is made of?

And why on earth wouldn't a clone love??
A clone would be a perfectly normal human individual, just with only one parent.

Cloning is something important to human and scientfic Progress, and cannot be held back by Dark Ages thinking.

Good for Europe. I just hope nobody listens to Stockwell Day and his band of boobs on this one here in Canada...

The only good arguments I have heard against human cloning have been technical, and recent developments are rapidly rendering those moot.

The so-called 'ethical problems' raised have all sounded like complete nonsense to me so far.

	27-11-2001 10:13									#64
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Bush stating that cloning is morally wrong does not necessarily imply that the Senate will immediately react and pass the measure banning human cloning, which was passed by the House a while back.

I believe there will be some restrictions (as there should be - after all, cloning for stem cells is one thing, cloning for specific reproductive purposes - creating the perfect baby - is quite another, IMO), and the measure will need to be adjusted before it will be passed --- hopefully.

Last edited by Narck on 27-11-2001 at 10:33

	27-11-2001 10:17									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Narck Bush stating that cloning is morally wrong does not necessarily imply that the Senate will immediately react and pass the measure banning human cloning, which was passed by the House a while back. I believe there will be some restrictions (as there should be - after all, cloning for stem cells is one thing, cloning for reproductive purposes - creating the perfect baby - is quite another, IMO), and the measure will need to be adjusted before it will be passed --- hopefully.

A couple months ago, I'd agree with you. But about 90% of the time since 9-11, our esteemed Republicrat congresspeople have been fighting for places in line to give the old Lewinski to George II. (Figurtively speaking, of course... I apologize for that mental image.) If you disagree with Shrub, you run the risk of being labelled unpatriotic, or worse...

	27-11-2001 13:18									#66
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"As for the Europe vs. America crappola, I find it somewhat amusing that societies which have a phobia for GM food seem to have no problem harvesting the human genome for the perceived greater good."

The agro and the medical uses of genetics are quite different. The stem cell issue is an ethical quagmire, but I don't have much problem with it as long as it's controlled. On the emrit and in european debate, they are almost completely separate.

But what I find rather odd is that a country that has a "constitutional" right to abortion and where some states allow late term abortions, and where the agro GM corps have pocketed the government, suddenly the looney religious right manages to outmanover big money ? Very strange times.

	27-11-2001 15:54									#67
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But has anyone thought about this:

Why don't fetuses have rights? (And skip the "natural rights' nonsense, I mean why haven't they been granted rights by the state.) The logic by which the Supreme Court has held that fetuses don't have rights is that the only definition of personhood in the Constitution is the 14th amendment's granting of citizenship rights to "all persons born or naturalized...." Since fetuses aren't born, they aren't people, and can be deprived of life without due process of law.

Clones won't be born. By this logic, they won't be people, and will be exempt from legal-constitutional protection.

So as far as I can figure, Bush has just ruled out my lifelong dream of having a household of clone-slaves to do my bidding while I weild the power of life and death over them. Dammit. And they were going to be Pamela Anderson clones, too...

	27-11-2001 16:04									#68
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"Why don't fetuses have rights?"

No constitutional rights under the US constitution, I'd say.

	27-11-2001 16:15									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Roland "Why don't fetuses have rights?" No constitutional rights under the US constitution, I'd say.

That's what I was saying. But it's not just that they haven't been granted rights; it's that they've been excluded from the category of personhood, because personhood has been tied to being "born."

	27-11-2001 17:12									#70
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quote: But if you clone his brain...

Clone his brain? OMG! Please go take a course in biology and history! You can't clone one's memories, that's not what cloning is about at all. It's 100% impossible to clone one's memories. Also, Hitler isn't buried anywhere, his body was turned into ashes. (moron)

quote: Wasn't it just a few months or so ago that many European governments were singing the same tune as our government in terms of creating embryos for the express purpose of harvesting stem cells from? IOW, opposed to it?

Not Holland and Britain. According to today's paper, only 3 European nations have laws banning/limiting cloning...namely Greece, Spain and Italy. Holland and Britain are going to legalise it.

quote: Very strange times.

That's certainly true.



In general next months will be great for Europe! The coming of the Euro, the ERRF will be formally declared operational, and cloning will be legalised for medical research in Holland, and perhaps other countries here too. Great news indeed.

Isn't progress great?

	27-11-2001 17:38									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly But has anyone thought about this: Why don't fetuses have rights? (And skip the "natural rights' nonsense, I mean why haven't they been granted rights by the state.) The logic by which the Supreme Court has held that fetuses don't have rights is that the only definition of personhood in the Constitution is the 14th amendment's granting of citizenship rights to "all persons born or naturalized...." Since fetuses aren't born, they aren't people, and can be deprived of life without due process of law. Clones won't be born. By this logic, they won't be people, and will be exempt from legal-constitutional protection.

Actually, yes, clones will be "born". All of the animals cloned thus far have been "born", the cloned egg being implanted into a fertile female, who then gave birth at the appropriate time.

	27-11-2001 17:43									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Mark L Clone his brain? OMG! Please go take a course in biology and history! You can't clone one's memories, that's not what cloning is about at all. It's 100% impossible to clone one's memories. Also, Hitler isn't buried anywhere, his body was turned into ashes. (moron)

Oh good that is what I thought. But don't think we can't do such a thing... look at how science has been going.

As for this, it was completely misstated. What they did was no different than anything done before, all they did was clone for stem cells. This is not cloning a human, I stand corrected. However Mark L is still wrong, there is no way Europe will do this because [Northern] Europeans are so concerned about genetically modified food and science all together.

	27-11-2001 17:45									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Roland But what I find rather odd is that a country that has a "constitutional" right to abortion and where some states allow late term abortions, and where the agro GM corps have pocketed the government, suddenly the looney religious right manages to outmanover big money ? Very strange times.

I find it to be rather heartening that ethics can sometimes win out over money. However, maybe that's just me.

Now as for the procedure itself, I have a hard time seeing much medicinal use for it due to the fact that the donor's age & health limits his/her options. And let's not even talk like the possibility of reproductive cloning is off the table. Why else would ACT (I believe that's the name of the company that made this discovery) be conducting studies to show that thier have been no problems found in the cloning of complex animals such as cows?

P.S. I take exception to being called looney. It has so many negative connotations.

	27-11-2001 17:51									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Actually, yes, clones will be "born". All of the animals cloned thus far have been "born", the cloned egg being implanted into a fertile female, who then gave birth at the appropriate time.

Thus dies a dream. Oh well.

	27-11-2001 18:21									#75
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quote: However Mark L is still wrong, there is no way Europe will do this because [Northern] Europeans are so concerned about genetically modified food and science all together.

Are you stupid or what? Holland is going to pass a law legalising cloning for medical purposes in 2 months. Last time I checked, Holland is a [Northern] European country. Though if you mean by Northern Europe countries like Norway and Sweden you may be right, but Holland is definetly going to allow this. Let me give you some information on Holland's politics.


Tweede Kamer (Second Chamber), Parliament

Pro:

* Partij van de Arbeid (PvdA, Labour Party). Centre-left liberals: 45 seats
* Volkspartij voor Vrijheid en Democracy (VVD, People's party for Freedom and Democracy). Right wing liberals: 38 seats
* Democraten 66 (D66, Democrats '66): Centre liberals: 14 seats
* Groenlinks (Green-left). Left wing liberals: 11 seats
* Socialistische Partij (SP, Socialist Party). Left wing liberals: 5 seats

Against:

*Christen Democratisch Appel (CDA, Christian Democratic Appeal). Centre conservatives: 29 seats
* ChristenUnie (Christian-Union). Right wing conservatives: 5 seats
* Staatkundig Gereformeerde Partij (SGP, State Reformed Party). Right wing conservatives: 3 seats

Total: 150 votes, 37 against VS 113.


Eerste Kamer (First Chamber), Senate

Pro:

* Partij van de Arbeid (PvdA, Labour Party). Centre-left liberals: 15 seats
* Volkspartij voor Vrijheid en Democracy (VVD, People's party for Freedom and Democracy). Right wing liberals: 19 seats
* Democraten 66 (D66, Democrats '66): Centre liberals: 4 seats
* Groenlinks (Green-left). Left wing liberals: 8 seats
* Socialistische Partij (SP, Socialist Party). Left wing liberals: 2 seats

Against:

*Christen Democratisch Appel (CDA, Christian Democratic Appeal). Centre conservatives: 20 seats
* ChristenUnie (Christian-Union). Right wing conservatives: 4 seats
* Staatkundig Gereformeerde Partij (SGP, State Reformed Party). Right wing conservatives: 2 seats
* Independant: 1 seat

Total: 75 votes, 27 against VS 48.


In other words, this law is going to pass without any problems in a month or two.


Unless of course, you happen to have a degree in Dutch politics and you have some insights I don't have.

Yeah right!

	27-11-2001 18:26									#76
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Sad to see that Holland's parliament is mostly communist.

You don't even know if the law for banning continued research in this area would occur in the US. So just hold your horses.

	27-11-2001 18:54									#77
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quote: Sad to see that Holland's parliament is mostly communist.

Damn you're stupid.

right wing: 46 seats
centre: 43

That's already 89 out of 150 who aren't left wing, let alone communist. Do you have a problem with math or something?

	27-11-2001 19:01									#78
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Giancarlo, if the only line of argument you have is to call anyone who argues against you a 'commie' then you really ought to f**k off out of here in my opinion. I disagree with you and you call me a commie. I know a lot more about this stuff than you do. Debate properly or don't bother.

The ethics being placed here are totally misplaced ethics. We are talking about research using stem cells, they are the holy grail of this research, and then adding the correct hormones to get them to develop into the tissue we want. Transplants without rejection anyone? People who can get new hearts without being on a concoction of immunosuppressant drugs for the rest of their life and a high chance of rejection. We are not growing 'Hitler brains' here () or engaging in eugenics. Really, I have never seen anything so stupid. I am getting quite tired by some of the debaters here because you repeat, parrot-fashion, the dubya line on the issue. To me, it looks like the right is the cult around here. Why do you agree so blindly Giancarlo? Because dubya cannot be wrong? Is he your God? It's pathetic.

	27-11-2001 19:10									#79
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Well said Provost!

	27-11-2001 19:11									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Mark L Damn you're stupid. right wing: 46 seats centre: 43 That's already 89 out of 150 who aren't left wing, let alone communist. Do you have a problem with math or something?

Just treating you like you treat me. Like you deserve.

quote: Giancarlo, if the only line of argument you have is to call anyone who argues against you a 'commie' then you really ought to f**k off out of here in my opinion. I disagree with you and you call me a commie. I know a lot more about this stuff than you do. Debate properly or don't bother.

Again I treat you the same way you treat me... like ****ing ****.

	27-11-2001 19:24									#81
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You're funny giani! In a stupid way

Anyway, back on topic (ignoring giani).

The Congress is likely to pass the law, and as has been said, after sept 11th the senate usually tends to vote in Bush' favor as well. Since in some European countries, like Holland and Britain, cloning for medical purposes will be made legal, it's likely that biotech firms will invest more money in Europe and move part of their research there.

And of course someone someday will abuse it. But laws passed in one country or another won't stop that. It's a global economy now, it doesn't matter if the US is going to ban it, since research will simply continue elsewhere. Only a world-wide ban might stop it, but that's impossible to achieve. In the meantime the US will miss the boat.

	27-11-2001 19:26									#82
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Rufus:

"That's what I was saying."

Sorry, couldn't resist:

"Why don't fetuses have rights?... the Supreme Court has held that fetuses don't have rights...definition of personhood in the Constitution is..."

All fetuses ? Everywhere? Which supreme court ? Which constitution ?
You might have been talking about Turkey...

	27-11-2001 23:02									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison To me, it looks like the right is the cult around here.

Hey, we are not all the same.

I consider myself to be on the right side of the political spectrum and I am fully in support of both cloning and genetically modified crops. Perhaps a different correlation would be more appropriate - people who are religious seem to be against human cloning, while atheists (like me) support it.

	28-11-2001 00:19									#84
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quote: But if you clone his brain... well, we haven't reached that yet. And he isn't buried anywhere, or is he?

When you clone a human being, you clone their brain, too, Giancarlo.

And when if you cloned Hitler, you don't clone the 1930s German political situation along with him.

	28-11-2001 00:49									#85
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quote: And when if you cloned Hitler, you don't clone the 1930s German political situation along with him.

Exactly. I sincerely hope that giani will stay out of this thread now with more moronic replies.

	28-11-2001 02:23									#86
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I would agree that banning cloning research is a bad thing. I've never heard an ethical objection to it that made much sense, and it could be useful.

If humanity can be improved through genetic engineering, that's all the better. I think when such a thing is possible it would be grossly immoral to allow unimproved humans to be born - who are we to burden future generations with all kinds of defects just because it's "natural"? Who are we not to play God?


If an unimportant, fairly harmless thing such as cloning already causes such a scared reaction, I wonder how people will react to the technologies that could really change life in many ways, if they can be reached - nanotechnology, high levels of artificial intelligence and the like.

And to the left-wingers here who oppose genetic engineering when done by corporations: I hope this will not cause you to reject the technology itself - it would make much more sense to support the technology while arguing for a somewhat better implementation.

	28-11-2001 02:54									#87
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Well it isn't technology I distrust, it is those who apply it without evaluating the full implications of it or understanding it fully.

	28-11-2001 03:01									#88
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I have no objection to that Provost (though I don't necessarily agree that's what's happening here), but I hope it won't make you against the technology itself as seems to have happened often to people in the left wing. The way I see it the misuses of the technology people are protesting about are (even if correct) trivial issues compared to ensuring that the technology itself is used fully (or almost fully, whatever).
So, I'm not saying you're wrong (or right) about this misuse, but that your concentration (and that of people who have similar opinions) should be elsewhere.

BTW - I don't think anyone can ever understand every implication of a technology.

	28-11-2001 03:03									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Mark L Exactly. I sincerely hope that giani will stay out of this thread now with more moronic replies.

It isn't like you are any better than I am, your replies are extremely moronic and completely uninformed. I shifted my opinion somewhat as you would notice because I was originally uninformed, I actually got no problem with stem cell research but cloning an actual human being should be downright illegal.

	28-11-2001 03:05									#90
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America loves money more than she loves religion. I hope for her sake that Europe realises that, and takes full advantage of her temporary opportunity.