29-11-2001 14:31									#31
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I was happy to get a leader to let me rush the pyramids in my recent game. me likey pyramids very much.

Shakespeare is kinda handy. With that and normal happiness improvements, you pretty much know that town's gonna stay happy.

I superoptimized when I built Evolution. I beelined research straight to that. Made sure I finshed my research one turn before finishing ToE, and bought every tech I could from the AI to backfill. Then I got two brand new techs that no one had (instant battleships, wheee!)

ER

	29-11-2001 16:00									#32
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obviously every player has his/her own preferences over wonders. Making a set guide of what wonder is the best and what is the worst is truly biased upon one's own civ experience, and I believe also (for newer players), based upon civ2's experience.

	29-11-2001 18:13									#33
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It's a pity that most wonders are useless on Archipelago maps... Personally I think that some wonders which are normally limited to it's continent (Art of War, Pyramids, Hanging Gardens, etc.) should also be carried through the trade network to other continents (harbours, airports).

Art of War and Hanging Gardens are obvious as to why, since they affect the whole continent merely because your citizens actually travel to the wonder to recieve it's benefits (it's just simplified for CivIII purposes). Why the Pyramids as well? Because I'm as sure as hell that back in ancient times, countries on the other side of the Mediteranian also benefited from the pyramids, and I'm just as sure they wouldn't have walked all the way around that very big sea in order to receive those benefits!

However, Hoover Dam should remain only it's continent, as intercontinental powerlines might be a bit unweildly...

	29-11-2001 20:37									#34
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Well, I can get many great wonders at Regent, but there's a huge gap between it and the Monarch level where the AI always beat me in wonders until mid-game. So at Monarch+ I don't even think building any from the Ancient era. Anyway as for the Great Library, I'm with the school of gamers who are thinking of it as of little importance since you can easily trade techs with money ( 70-90% economy in most Ancient era, I begin investing more on science in the Middle Ages ) - especially when playing on larger maps, where in Ancient era you'll never really speed up your research faster than the max cap (32 turns).

	29-11-2001 22:01									#35
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This guide appears to be shaping up nicely, and its nice to see time being given to the question of Wonders which has been largely ignored by the strategy threads so far.

I must side with those, however, who have questioned the worth of the Great Wall. I rarely get involved in wars when my city size is small, and if I do I've found that attack is always the best form of defence. Therefore, walls are pointless and thus the Great wall is also pointless.

I think I would only even consider it if I had serious barbarian problems, but since they can't capture cities in CivIII, I generally ignore it even then.

	29-11-2001 23:26									#36
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Ancient
Colossus- 2 Moderate effects, comes pretty handy when you got a nice coastal city plus the AI doesn’t go after it too much.

Great Library-2 I can’t understand the fuss about this one (but then, again, I’ve yet to try on Emperor-Deity, so maybe there is a reasoning behind this). Hard to get, expires very fast. Not worth it.

great lighthouse-1: Eh, what? Well, ok, for an archipelago map, I give it a 2.

great wall-1: Not a “0” because in some ICS tactics it can prove useful – but the cost/effectiveness sum-up is really bad about this wonder. Never bother with it.

Hanging Gardens-1- Expires soon and I can’t get it anyways (I go for Republic ASAP so no Monarchy for me)

Oracle-2: Not bad and attainable too – if only it lasted a bit longer…

Pyramids-5+ : The absolute must for any above-Regent game, pretty hard to get but if you have a great starting point (with a cow or two, for instance) you have a shot at it. Priceless in any serious strategy (and you can control population with various ways – rushbuild in despotism, make many workers and of course settlers – they shouldn’t call this civ3, they should call it The Land Grab

Medieval

Adam smiths-2: Nothing like the money powerhouse of civ2, still is somewhat good and you can get it moderately easy.

Copernicus- 3: If you are going to build that super-science city, you need this. Go for it.

Bach's Cathedral-4: Precious little gem and I seem to get it 50-50 with the AI.

Lenardos Workshop- 2: The best Civ2 wonder is now a mediocre one. Nuttin!

Magellons-2: Never got it, it’s not on my top priorities and the comp seems to like it.

Sistine chapel-5: Go get it, in my last game it gave me a frigging WLTCD in 2/3 of my cities.

Newtons-3: Build this with conjunction with Copernicus and you wont fall back in science any more

Shakespear-1: Ridiculus… but gives a nice culture output. But the comp likes it so it usually takes it.

Sun Tzus-3: Useful, to get those free barracks. But the era has better wonders – try to get those first and if the comp beats you to one of those, switch to S.T.’s (that’s the way I got it a couple of times).

Industrial:

Hoover Dam-5: Very, very important. Clean boost to your production – just in time to churn out those tanks

United Nations 0 or 5: IF you play for a dip victory (I disable the option) it’s a 5, otherwise a 0.

Theory of Evolution-2: I usually have the tech lead by the time I can get this, so if the AI beats me to it, it doesn’t bother me much.

Universal Suffrage 5 – I get it all the time and it’s priceless (because you can actually fight a war in Democracy)

Modern:

Cure for cancer:3- Not bad, not bad. If you need the content bonus at this point, it’s usefull.

Lengetivity- 1: I get it easily but it’s useless IMNSHO

SETI- 3: Add this to your prime science city and …wow!

Manhatten project-0: This is flawed… it should be a small wonder.

	29-11-2001 23:28									#37
	Sheakespear Theatre Tired of ads?

I know its prolly the most useless wonder out there if everything goes to plan, but in most games (especially upper level) things usually don't.

I have had one great use for it ... I conquered an enemy city on a coast so i could get my hands on saltpeter (i would thus be the only person on my continent to have gunpowder with this) ... the problem? the city was huge but garbage .... i quelled the rebellion but i had about 7 entertainers still .... so i used a great leader to build the theare and if i hadn't, i prolly would have lost the city to disorder or starvation or whatever ... the culture helped a lot too - my borders expanded so i got more saltpeter to trade to my allies and i secured my borders that way too

Helped me out that one time ... just thought i'd share that with you all

Cheers!
~Alex

	29-11-2001 23:40									#38
	The UN Support Apolyton

I don't think anyone has noticed this yet, but if Diplomatic victory is turned off you don't even have the option to build it.

Of course, I think this is wrong. I wanted to build it for the culture alone, but it didn't appear.

But in the spirit of this thread:
If you accidentily left diplomatic victory on (I the win is kinda lame I think) you must build it, for the reasons others stated. If it's off, What UN? What adavnce gives me that? Huh? did someone build it already? I didn't get a message.. oh well.

	30-11-2001 00:57									#39
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Great Lighthouse -- The usefulness of this wonder is inversely related to both land coverage and land connectivity. On a pangea map it's a zero, do not get unless you want its culture. On Continental maps at lower degrees of land coverage, it's pretty good, but its usefulness depends on your positioning. If you're on a larger continent with only a few other AI opponents, better to expand by conquest than by exploration. On archipelago maps, this is excellent, a 4, and gets better the less land coverage you have. First of all, the ability to sail across sea (and in the initial release, ocean) squares means you're far more likely to encounter other civilizations, which maximizes your opportunities for useful trades of technologies and resources. Second, it gives you a first-rate advantage in finding new areas to expand into. However, if you're playing an expansionist angle, NEVER TRADE YOUR MAP on the archipelago setting. This preserves your unique knowledge of suitable expansion territories for as long as possible. Give your opponents money or tech in trade for their map, but never grant them a peek at yours.

Shakespeare's Theatre -- I would definitely advise building this if you're going for a culture victory, especially the single-city variant. If culture's not your thing, this isn't very useful (in original release). I tend to stack high-culture improvements in a single city, to have that potential victory on the back burner, JIC, so I usually build it when I get a chance.

Longevity -- Don't you wish *this* useless POS would get booted in the patch... perhaps if its prerequisite was changed to Medicine it might be useful, but I have enough problems with cities growing and starving back as it is... this only adds to the aggravation. Besides, what's longevity done for modern civilizations except subsidize Golden Girls reruns?

Great Wall -- Well, it looks kind of cool in the city display... Seriously, with even somewhat adequate defensive units in your cities this is quite useless.

Magellan's Expedition -- Same as with the Lighthouse, though in this case map size becomes more of a consideration. On a tiny map, even with archipelago land distribution, this is not really worthwhile. On a huge map, this is essential to maintaining naval power, and on archipelago is crucial to all military capability and later-game expansion.

Manhattan Project -- Total waste of time unless you are playing Chieftain, in which case you'll want it so you can lob nukes at your opponent's spearmen.

Intelligence Agency -- The expense of spy missions makes this a very low priority. Remember that your enemies have to pay just as much as you, so even the "detect mole" mission isn't of much use. Consider also that the most damaging spy mission (propaganda) can be defeated by the simple expedient of becoming a democracy, which you need to do anyway in order to have any hope of controlling corruption.

Pentagon -- Armies are virtually guaranteed wins whether you've got three or four times the hit points of the basic unit. If they attacked multiple times per turn, the extra capacity *might* prove useful, but just getting to the point where you can make this sucker takes so much effort it's not really worthwhile. This one's a turkey.

	30-11-2001 00:58									#40
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In regards to the expiration of wonders, they all expire only when the player who owns them gets the appropriate advance. I was in a very early game where I had magellan and an old war-mongering island-trapped hack had the lighthouse, and both were working at the same time!

You don't have a lot of choice with the Great Library, but with other wonders you can simply skirt around the advance which makes them obsolete if you want to keep them going for a little longer. It doesn't matter if some other civ has the advance or not.

You can prove this to yourself by trading for the tech which makes something obsolete... or trading the tech which makes something obsolete to your opponent, just to screw him up...

	30-11-2001 01:21									#41
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

eventually all of you will become good enough so that you dn't build wonders...... you capture them....

can a wonder be destroyed....i bombarded a city for 80turns just for the hell of it......and i destroyed everything but the wonder....and if you take a size one city it doens't disappear like in civ1/2

so is the only way to destroy a wonder to raze the city

	30-11-2001 04:37									#42
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I understand the lack of appreciation for the great lighthouse. However, in a recent game it pulled me from last place and into first. I was alone on a relatively small contenent (think Austrialia) which I had all to my self. I knew I was being left behind technologically by my isolation so I built the great lighthouse. After being built I was able to repeatedly trade my maps of the world for multiple techs, and huge per turn gold payments (15-20). This made me catch up really quickly and the AI never recovered.

I realize that this wonder isn't for every situation, but it saved my butt that day.

	30-11-2001 04:48									#43
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Yeah, wonders are on a 'need only' basis ...

Sometimes i find it better to build more military and city improvements where needed instead of concentrating on a wonder ... of course, if you need the culture a wonder is fantastic - and (of course) if you get a great leader, what else will do with him/her??? I know i know ... armies, but lets get real here

Cheers!
~Alex

	30-11-2001 05:38									#44
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Many of you are forgetting one of the important aspects of wonders: culture.

Though Shakespeare's Theater is bad as a wonder, it gives you enormous culture, especially after 1000 years, when it doubles to 12 per turn. Copernicus' Observatory costs the same and gives the same benefit as Newton's University, but it gives 1 less culture, so I will always go for Newton's University unless I can get both only if I build the Observatory first. I build many of the happiness wonders for their high culture, often more than for the happiness benefit.

	30-11-2001 12:29									#45
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Thanks everyone for the support, I have now successfully completed the enitire guide with all 32 wonders and just 4000 charecters under the word limit.

Out of common interest what are your top 5 favourite wonders?

	30-11-2001 13:01									#46
	Increase Your PM Length

I have to disagree with the Great Wall's ranking of 3, as this might actually make someone consider building it. For the 200 shields, there are far better investments than the Great Wall. Ranking it higher than Theory of Evolution is, IMO, nonsensical. Especially when you've managed to wheel and deal for all the non-required techs, Theory of Evolution can give you pure gold.

Great Wall has one application - giving the Chinese a Golden Age.
Theory of Evolution - even if you have not researched all the non-required techs, two techs are two techs and you can't argue that you won't have gone for, say, Nationalism and Communism anyway.

I'd even argue that the Great Lighthouse, despite its ridiculous cost, has more application than the Great Wall since the cost of the Great Wall is 200+ shields anyway (and as I said before, 400 shields to make it an efficient investment).

I especially disagree with the ranking of Sistine numerically equal to the Great Wall. The Sistine Chapel, even on lower difficulties, will offer a lot more than the Great Wall. Sure, you need a Cathedral, but then Sistine essentially supplies you with an extra Cathedral, giving you an effective bonus of 140 shields + 2 gold/turn for EVERY city you build a Cathedral in. Build four Cathedrals and Sistine will have effectively paid for itself, and everyone will have more than four Cathedrals. Oh, and the six culture is gravy.

You should probably clarify why UN is a 5. You need it because otherwise you could lose regardless of other factors on any turn. Independently of whatever kind of victory you are trying to get, YOU WANT the UN if Diplo is on.

Cure for Cancer comes late, is 1000 shields, and any empire across 3 continents will be three-quarters dead from corruption anyway. You may want to rethink this one, especially since its 1000 shield cost is...rather hefty.

Why rate Copernicus' and Newton's (henceforth C+N, since they're identical) as 3 while SETI's a 5? SETI does the exact same thing C+N do, but at a cost of 1000 shields instead of 400. For less than the cost of SETI you could get both of them.

Colossus surely deserves more than a two. Yes, it only affects one city, but you can get it early (especially since the AI doesn't prioritize it, a major point!) . If you run the city up to 12 pop quickly, it can give you +12 commerce for over a hundred turns, before you acquire Flight. 1200 commerce is nothing to sneeze at for a 200 shield investment. I'd call it a three with the other power one-city wonders like C+N. Also, with early acquisition comes early culture doubling, so Colossus will end up rating a six for most of the game.

You should probably note that Adam Smith's pays for Airports too. Key aspect since Airports are the only one of Marketplace, Bank, Harbor that won't naturally pay for themselves.

Probably a good idea to clarify Apollo Project to "space race victory". No need confusing people, especially beginning players, with the words "science victory", even though that's essentially what Space Race is.

That said, in general I think you've put together a concise summary of wonders useful to at least some beginning players, and the ratings are generally along the right track.

-Sev

	30-11-2001 13:54									#47
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It apears that some people are not quite understanding my marking system, maybee I should clarify things.


Mandatory
____________________
1) Required to win the game in some sort of way.
2) Or/And influences one aspect of your civilization that cause the others to expand. (eg. happiness promotes growth, growth promotes production ect...)
3) Or/And it's effects are massive. (eg. Great Library giving you nearly 20 free techs, or Wall Street, giving you large money bonuses for free ect...)


Very Useful
____________________
1) Affects one aspect of your empire heavily.
2) Or affects many things in your empire equaling a reasonable effect. (eg. Heroic Epic, which gives your civ the ability to build better wonders faster)


Benificial
____________________
1) (eg. Great Wall, provieds you with significant military advantages for a short period of time) Nice effects for a short period of time.
2) Or improving the effects of a city improvment.


Decent
____________________
1) Giving you a bonus (eg. Money) for a short period of time .
2) Or given this mark because other better wonders are avalible at this time.


Mediocre
____________________
1) Affects one very small aspect (eg. Sea travel) that gives you a good effect, but doesn't really do anything for your empire as a civilization.


Hope this clears things up.

	30-11-2001 23:28									#48
	Battlefield Medicine Tired of ads?

I'm big on Battlefield Medicine! If you are a war monger and want to be efficient at it, you need to be able to heal while in enemy territory. If you're placing 2 or 3 Mech Inf on an enemy mountain as a distraction, they're so much more effective.

	01-12-2001 00:41									#49
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Hmmm...with your marking system that way, you should probably clarify it on the first page, as the marks will then be quite misleading. If you do intend it as a guide as to which wonders you should build, ranking Sistine and C+N both as 3 is going to confuse novice players who equate rankings with "how good" a wonder is. Sistine fits under 4 in your definition anyway, it gives significant benefit and never expires. Yes, I agree the rest of your ratings make sense given this marking scheme, but then you should clarify that "This Guide is not a measure of which wonders are better than others, or which wonders you should build." Your statement that it is a quick guide in which order wonders should be built is false, as it implies that, among other things, people should beeline for Sun Tzu's Art of War in the Middle Age, when Sistine and Bach's are clearly superior choices at this time.

Still have to disagree with Great Wall at 3, since that says Beneficial, which by definition means conferring a benefit. I'd argue that in 99% of situations, you do not get a benefit out of building the Great Wall, since you lose on net shields.

And how is SETI "mandatory" when C+N aren't, when they're identical wonders? SETI does the same thing, and costs two and a half times as much. Its effects are no more "massive" than C+N's.

-Sev

	01-12-2001 01:17									#50
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Not to mention that SETI comes too late to be useful, whereas Copernicus and Newton can give your research the kick it will sorely need after having spent so many years binging on free Great Library techs.

quote: Originally posted by Sevorak And how is SETI "mandatory" when C+N aren't, when they're identical wonders? SETI does the same thing, and costs two and a half times as much. Its effects are no more "massive" than C+N's. -Sev

	01-12-2001 05:08									#51
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Thanks for the note, I thought SETI had the same effect as in Civ 2. I composed version 1.2 today, though it does need some more fixes.

	01-12-2001 19:41									#52
	Great Lighthouse more valuable due to bug Enter the AD-FREE zone

Presently, the Great lighthouse allows Galleys to travel over ocean squares as well as sea squares (This may be a bug, and if so, I hope they fix it).

As it presently works, this makes the Great Lighthouse very valuable - at least a 4 and maybe a 5.

If you are on a continent or Pangea type world, you become the only civilization that can explore the oceans. This is good for 5 to 10 extra cities on the unexplored land that you find.

Mike

	03-12-2001 06:38									#53
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Hi, first time poster here

It seems to me that if you have trouble keeping up with the AI on wonder creation, playing an archipelego map really helps minimize the effect of the Wonder. In fact, it might possibly make the Wonder counter-productive (for example, on small islands it's cheaper to build multiple granaries than the Pyramids).

But, the AI probably doesn't take these calculations into account.

	03-12-2001 20:26									#54
	TOE error in guide Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Just wanted to point out that there's an error in the guide. I've seen this mentioned somewhere, but I can't remember if it's on this thread. Anyway, the TOE does NOT give you two secondary advances. It gives you the two cheapest advances available, period. Many players grab essential advances first and leave the secondaries for later, so that the TOE ends up getting them only secondary advances (perhaps even secondary advances from a previous age--imagine building it just to get Monarchy!) As such, you maximize the advantage gained by building the TOE if you fill in as much of the tree as you can. Alternately, when you're 2-3 turns from completing it, you can improve its effect by trading for all the secondary advances you don't have yet. Then TOE fills in primary advances you need.

	03-12-2001 20:33									#55
	Got spare money?

The Lighthouse is definitely underrated. You can explore and find other civs, trading with them and trading the contacts with your friends (depends on how you play). It's a great tool -- and best thing is, if you wage a war with those off the continent, they can't hit you back!!!

	04-12-2001 03:22									#56
	GL Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

IMO the Great Library is highly overrated, at least for my style.

I make a TON of gold/turn by developing a tech, then trading it to every other civ. I think I make more gold through this method than through reducing research to 10% and making $$ through taxes.

	04-12-2001 09:22									#57
	Re: GL Increase the size of your Attachments

You can do that with the GL too. Just because 2 civs have a tech doesn't mean all the others do. I often have gotten a tech from the GL and sold it to other civs, as well as doing my own research (deep rather than broad) and selling the results of that.

quote: Originally posted by Quurgoth IMO the Great Library is highly overrated, at least for my style. I make a TON of gold/turn by developing a tech, then trading it to every other civ. I think I make more gold through this method than through reducing research to 10% and making $$ through taxes.

	05-12-2001 08:20									#58
	Score Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Pyramids - 4 - Even if you cannot build it 1st, be sure to to capture it later.

Oracle - 2 - only 1 more happy face & it requires you to build a temple to get it... also expires.

Hanging Gardens - 3.5 - Nice. If your small cities are happy from luxuries or an easy level this is useless, if you have no luxuries or are on Diety/Emperor level it's priceless, but much harder to get 1st too. Expires.

Great Wall - 1 - Barbarians are already extremely weak & walls often vanish. Expires. Civ2 Great Wall atleast gave free walls to all your cities. Only thing good is the little bit of early culture.

Great Lighthouse - 5 - Pangea value = 0. Columbus & Ponce de Leon await to set sail. You can cross oceans with this centuries before the other Civs! This allows you to be the 1st Civ to settle the "New World(s)" as well as contact other AI Civs 1st. Great Strategic Benefits too. It's HUGE.

Great Library - 4 - Firaxis yanked MOST of the thunder that was in this wonder during Civ2, since now it expires MUCH sooner. Although, it is the best wonder for culture dominance & will guarantee you get/keep the tech lead for a bit. Also important if you need to catch up. Warmongers won't have to study.

Colossus - 2 - Does very little & expires.

Adam Smith's - 3 - Weakened from being the "money powerhouse" from Civ2, but still good to have.

JS Bach's Cathedral - 4 - Good. Value drops for archipelago maps.

Leonardo's Workshop - 3 - Depends on map size. Larger map = more troops. Since AI Civs cannot upgrade units this is almost useless to them, so letting them have it won't hurt you.

Magellan's Voyage - 2 - +1 speed ships isn't going to do much.

Sistine Chapel - 4 -Great regardless of the map you're on. Only Bloodlusting warmongers who never build chapels may disregard this.

Shakespeare's Theater - 1 -1 happy city.

Sun Tzu's Art of War - 3.5 -You will likely be defending your cities or conquering new ones. Veteran troops are more important than in Civ2. This brings flexible offense & defense to your entire empire regardless of how scattered you might be. Not something you want a militaristic enemy to have.

Hoover's Dam - 5 -Automatic increased production to factory cities & no pollution! Verrry nice. Not as valuable on archipelago maps.

United Nations - 5 -Allows for victory. Ignoring it could cause you to lose. Multiplayer... having your name on the ballot cannot hurt & you can deny the most popular person victory.

Theory of Evolution - 3 -2 more techs are 2 more techs. I sware once I only got 1 advance (Radio) from thing!

Universal Suffrage - 4 -Democracy wars. I've fought democracy wars without it tho.

Copernicus' Observatory - 3 -Good science.

Newton's University - 3 -Good science.

SETI Program - 1 -You either have the tech lead at this point or you don't. And since this only doubles the base & not double what Copernicus or Newton bring it's benefit is very small. You might get 1 more future tech out of this, but that's it.

Cure for Cancer - 2 -Only 1 content citizen for each city & is VERY expensive. However since the other Great Wonders are crap at this point this may be the best to default to.

Longevity - 1 -Game is almost over. More citizens do mean a higher score, but unless you're still playing for conquest & still attacking your growth is over. 2 x 0 = 0

Manhattan Project - 1 -Double-edged sword. And global warming could ruin your best cities or dissolve your lead.

Last edited by Pyrodrew on 05-12-2001 at 08:36

	05-12-2001 08:44									#59
	Stupid AI Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Quurgoth IMO the Great Library is highly overrated, at least for my style. I make a TON of gold/turn by developing a tech, then trading it to every other civ. I think I make more gold through this method than through reducing research to 10% and making $$ through taxes.

The AI Civs pay FAR too much gold for techs. They should not give up their soul (entire treasury & future income for 20 turns) for only 1 tech... but they often do. That's a stupid AI... hopefully they will make the AI smarter in the patch.

	09-12-2001 10:33									#60
	Pyramids Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I give Pyramids a 5+ (and a ) . In my opinion, it is the most impotant wonder in the game. It saves you the trouble of build granaries in every city and spares you the upkeep cost you would usually have to pay. Instead, you can build military units, settles, or temples and just have big cities. Worried aoutyour cities topping off at 12 for a while? Don't! No harm coms from the city not having a sewer system. Just change the tiles that it's taking from to the ones that give the most commerce an production. Then you have a bunch of large cities ready for production of whatever you want. Also, pyramids don't go obselete. Meaning your cities grow to enormous amouts after sewer systems w/o having to worry about granaries.