16-09-2002 21:38									#121
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Culture fliping will get me a few cities and a very long time, but not enough to win anything. Sometimes a city will not flip even though it is isolated and small. I just do not see that a method that will do much more than add a handfull of cities. It is like watching paint dry.

	18-09-2002 02:56									#122
	Re: Difficulty level obviously matters Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Arrian I've been playing on Regent for a while now, and here are my thoughts on Wonders AT THAT LEVEL: -Arrian

I think your ALL CAPS bit is the most important part of any rating or tip post.

I'm a true newbie, currently still playing Chieftan, learning which Civs I like and what effects a sprawling REXed empire have on how I like to play.

And that's the second most important part of ratings and tips.

Builders and warmongers simply have different strategies and priorities.

As a newbie, I still like to get almost every wonder I can. Well, except the Great Wall.


Anyway, Difficulty Level and Play Style should always be a prominent part of any strategy post, though many strategies are a playstyle, so that one can often be inferred.


Aside from that, this is a nice analysis of the Wonders. As a newb, I'm still forming opinions about which ones I like.


The Great Lighthouse, by the way, is - IMO - very helpful for a peaceful, trader-builder civ on anything but Pangea. The sooner I can get exclusive Contact and World Maps, the better. Especially if I have exclusive contact with a Civ that is ahead in the Tech Tree. Or if I can get exclusive contact to more than one Civ, I have a monopoly. Sure, it might be shortlived, but it was an enjoyable advantage early on.

The Great Library is also very nice if you tend to go off "on your own" into parts of the Tech Tree that the AI doesn't. Assuming AI contact and trading of techs, you can get free techs AND get ahead in a branch, if you aren't doing the Tech-Trading thing.


Then again, I'm still a newb, so my opinions are tilted towards what a beginner sees at the easiest difficulty level on standard maps.

	17-11-2002 09:40									#123
	Re: Leaders Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by King of Rasslin 1/16 leaders means that you should get a leader after 16 elite wins. But you might be lucky to get a single leader during a whole game.

This is faulty logic.

Each time an elite unit wins a battle, there is a 6.25% (1/16) chance that he will generate a leader.

This sort of randomness is not cumulative - previous outcomes have absolutely no bearing on subsequent probablilities whatsoever.


If you've ever seen the movie Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead, you may recall the "coin flipping" scenes. Essentially, a guy is flipping a coin and it keeps coming up heads every time for hundreds of times.

This is how probability and randomness work - it doesn't matter how many times you roll the dice - or even that you have or have not rolled them at all - each roll is independent and random.

Now, while computer generated "random" numbers are not really random, that doesn't mean that you can completely ignore the rules of probability.


Each individual Elite victory is an independent event with an independent 6.25% chance of having something special happen.

Or you could say that there is a 93.75% chance that any given Elite victory will be uneventful.


I'm sure there are some more adept math/statistics wizzes here that will explain how you're chances over a game get slightly greater with every victory, but none of them will try to tell you that 16 Elite victories will statistically equal an Elite. Probability just doesn't work that way.

	17-11-2002 20:40									#124
	Increase the size of your Attachments

hi ,

the changes of having a leader can be increased , .....

with a bit of good play you can have one a couple turns after you have "spend" the previous leader , .....

have a nice day

	18-11-2002 01:00									#125
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Well said Ducki.

	18-11-2002 21:14									#126
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This weekend my girlfriend started a few of games on Regent level. She typically plays for a while, expanding peacefully and then either getting bored and quitting or getting attacked and quitting.

Anyway, one was utterly amazing. She chose standard, archipelago, 60% water and got one of the wierdest looking continents I've ever seen. I thought she was alone for a looong time, only to discover that the darn thing snaked nearly all the way around the world and had 5 other civs on it!

Anyway, her capitol, 2nd and 3rd cities were all production monsters (capitol had river, 2 cows, 2nd city had a cow, a lake & lots of shielded grass, 3rd city had 6 shielded grass), and on Regent research is pretty easy, so I (acting as "advisor") had her beeline HARD for republic while building the Pyramids and a "palace." The result: Pyramids and GL built w/in a few turns (Colossus completed earlier), the Great Lighthouse banged out during the GA, and a comfortable tech lead from that point on. Peaceful expansion netted 5 luxuries (3 near "home" and 2 colony cities). The only wonders that are not Egyptian are the Great Wall and Oracle. I took over during the mid-to-late middle ages, gathered up most of our Cavalry and destroyed Babylon just because I could. She told me I really shouldn't play on Regent

Talk about an embarrassment of riches. But it made me think: with a good start, it's entirely possible to pull off the Pyramids/GL double build on Regent. And MAN is it powerful. It will wreck the AI cascade too (though if somebody managed to get Monarchy you may lose the HG).

I tried it on Monarch, and had more trouble. First off, the start just wasn't as good. Second, getting to republic takes longer on Monarch, and the Pyramids triggered my GA in despotism (switched to republic 7 turns in, I think). I might have been able to delay its completion some more, I suppose. Still, I pulled off the double build, and will have all of the "big three" early medieval wonders (SZ, Sistine, Leo). No Great Lighthouse and no Hanging Gardens, though.

I did these things because I had a craving for a "builder" style game. Normally, I play as a bloodthirsty sonufa***** on Emperor and will typically eschew the Pyramids and GL to build my army.

-Arrian

	18-11-2002 21:24									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Talk about an embarrassment of riches. But it made me think: with a good start, it's entirely possible to pull off the Pyramids/GL double build on Regent. And MAN is it powerful. It will wreck the AI cascade too (though if somebody managed to get Monarchy you may lose the HG).

Yes, it's very doable, but I never do.
Reason: I don't play SVC starts, so I don't need granaries. Hell, most of the time, my cities grow too fast in the first place, I sure don't want the micromanagement nightmare of doubled growth... on Regent.

quote: I tried it on Monarch, and had more trouble. First off, the start just wasn't as good. Second, getting to republic takes longer on Monarch, and the Pyramids triggered my GA in despotism (switched to republic 7 turns in, I think). I might have been able to delay its completion some more, I suppose. Still, I pulled off the double build, and will have all of the "big three" early medieval wonders (SZ, Sistine, Leo). No Great Lighthouse and no Hanging Gardens, though.

Yes, Monarch is much harder, which is why I keep going back and forth between Regent and Monarch.
I hate the despotic GA if early wonders, but I love to get Colossus and HG when I can.

GLib is what I beeline for if I'm Commercial, or if I get Alphabet very early, even to the point of prebuilding another wonder... on Monarch, but if I have to choose between the gardens and the library, I usually take the Gardens. I can buy/research/extort techs, but happiness is priceless when I don't have to manage it.

	18-11-2002 21:25									#128
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Hey Ducki, I went back and read my post that started with the notation you quoted, and I really got a kick out of it.

Though I now play primarily on Emperor, and have totally changed my playstyle, I found that my ratings didn't really change much. I would lower each of the scientific wonders to 3 from 4, up Leo's from 2 to 4 or maybe 5, and up the Great Lighthouse to a 3 from 2.

-Arrian

	18-11-2002 21:29									#129
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Ah-hah, cross post! A note on growth: believe it or not, it's your friend. I used to think exactly the way you do: my cities grow too fast as it is, how will I keep them happy? No longer.

Population is power in many respects. You can work more tiles, and build more workers & settlers. You may need the luxury slider, but trust me, it's worth it. Though I admit it can be a bit of a "micromanagement nightmare."

Hmm, a choice between the GL and the HG. I would probably choose the GL in most circumstances, because it would allow me to shut science off and rake in cash I can use to develop my outlying cities (or, alternatively, choose to research techs the AI probably won't, trusting the GL to keep me at parity on the other side of the tech tree).

-Arrian

	19-11-2002 00:31									#130
	Inflate your Upload Space

I don't bother building wonders, most of the time.

	19-11-2002 01:27									#131
	Re: Wonder Guide Got spare money?

I'm thinking that Colossus rating varies during the game.

Late Ancient Era - Early Middle Ages : 4

Remainder of Middle Ages : 3

Industrial Era until expiring : 2.

Remainder of game : 1

Colossus also generate a lot of science, especally if combined with Coperacus and/or Newton's.

Rating of Great Libary depends heavilly upon the level your playing at and number of civs. On the Monarch level or below, I'd call it 1.

On Emperor level, the usefulness depends upon how quickly you build it. Maybe a 4 if you build it quick enough via storing shields on second city or Great Leader, quickly degrading as date of construction delayed. Post-Education it's value is 1.

Great Lighthouse: Depends upon # of major landmasses.

On Pangena: 1.

On contenants: 2.

Starting on a small deserted island: 5.

Great Wall: 2.

The Hanging Gardens 4 on Emperor/Diety level.
3 on Monarch, 2 on Regent, 1 on lower levels.

Oracle Wonder: If built early enough in Emperor /Diety : 2. Otherwise a 1. It just expires way to quickly to be much use at all.

The Pyramids: Initally 4 on Monarch and below. 3 on Emperor. 2 on Deity. The problem is on higher levels, you don't want your cities growing too fast. Ratings will increase up to 4 as more Happiness problems solves. Also on maps with lots of islands and no contientants, this gets degraded.

Adam Smiths Trading Company : 3

Copernicus' Observatory & Newton's University :3
If this is built on the Colossus and/or in the same city 4.

JS Bach’s Cathedral: 2 on most maps. So maps are go bad that this is a 1.

Leonardo's Workshop: 2

Magellan's Voyage : See Great Light House above.

Sistine Chapel: 3 on most maps. On some maps, this gets degraded.

Shakespeare’s Theatre: 1 unless you are going for a cultural victory, in which case it's worth much more.

Sun Tzu's Art Of War : This is another one that's limited to the contietant, so there are some maps where this is worthless. You really only need 1 baracks for upgrading, so it's not worth much for that, and is more usefull for the building of military units. I'd say that if you are a pure war mongler, it might be a 5. A pure builder would find it a 1. A balanced player will find it a 3.


Hoover Dam : 4 unless the small size of contientatns degrade it.

UN: 5 simply because you can lose the game if you can't filibuster.

Theory Of Evolution: Highly depedant upon careful reserach slider tweaking and selection. This can be a 4 if done correctly. (2 of the highest Industrial Age Techs discvored for free.) But if you happen to be researching and old dead end Middle Ages tech because you weren't paying attention, this can be a 1.

Universal Suffrage: I'd give it a 2. If you plan your wars correctly, you don't have war werriousness problems because you win the war before the citizens start wanting peace. When somebody delcares war on you as a Democracy, your happiness initally goes up.

Cure For Cancer: 1. Comes too late in the tree to be useful.

Longevity: 1. Tends to come after every city in your empire is working all tiles in addition to being too late in the tree.

SETI Program: 3 if you can combine this on the same city that has Copercaus and Newtons and do so quickly. If you can't combine it, 2. If you don't have it by the time the Apollo Program is built 1.

Manhattan Project: NEGATIVE value if you have a small tech lead. (Why let the AI sudenly start nuking your cities.) Postive 2 if the AI is also building this.

Forbidden Palace : 5. I don't think it's possible to win this game without it, simply because of the massive corruption in your empire from number of cities.

Heroic Epic : 4 if your a War Mongler. 2 If Balanced. 1 if a builder.

Iron Works : Usally an NA. When you can build it, 2.

Military Academy : 4 if your planning on using Armies of Calvar against Infentry. 2 otherwise.

Wall Street: 5 if used properllly.

Battlefield Medicine: 4 if a war mongler. 2 if a builder. 3 if balanced.

Intelligence Agency: 3

The Pentagon : 2 if a war mongler or are interested in the culutre. 1 otherwise.

Apollo Program: 5. Much quicker to win the game via Space Race than culture.

SMD : Usaually NA because the game is over by the time you can start building it. If for some reason, the game is still in progress and you can built it, it is a 4.

	20-11-2002 07:27									#132
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I like Leonardso Workshop, cheap upgrades are great.. they can be really expensive later, upgrading cannons to artilerry, rifles to mech inf. etc.
This wonder should be more useful in PTW, with swordsmen upgrading repeatedly till guerrilas.

There are also good Wonder combinations..
and silly combinations..

Good combos:

Leonardos and Sun tzu's - for upgrading in any city on continent .

Bad combos:

Michaelangelo and JS Bach - only good for a 2050 score win maybe, otherwise its overkill. I prefer Michaelangelos on its own, as its not just continental like Bachs.

It would be interesting what areas need more wonders and peoples ideas, i've added several more in my Reality mod i'm working on (its great, new govs, 30 units etc)
Maybe new industrial wonders, like Labour Unions, gives free Factories to every city!

	20-11-2002 12:21									#133
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

JS Bach, I never build it, so I would lower it more. The more I would need it the less likely I am to get it. IOW on monarch or lower, I do not need it, on deity I would like it but can't get it (well maybe I could I just don't).
Apollo is 0 if you turn off space race.
Leo depends on a lot of things, the rest I would agree, especially on Oracle another I do not often bother with. I will tend to get it when I miss some other wonder.
Another fine job catt.

	20-11-2002 20:24									#134
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

For my part, I actually like Bach's it really helps discontent citizens on a huge continent, especially if I can't secure or negociate more than 2-3 luxuries in the middle ages. More useful than some people think, unless if playing a religious civ ( cheap cathedrals ) and always having at least 5 luxuries, then Bach's & Sistine are quite less useful. The fifth luxury + marketplace is what can give you an edge later in the middle ages, otherwise go for either Bach's or Sistine.

	20-11-2002 22:03									#135
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Any one else notice that the Great Library seems more attainable in PTW than in classic Civ III? It used to be a real gamble for me to get (Monarch difficulty level), and I grew reluctant pre-building for it since I frequently found myself taking a city out of production for 30 or so turns and ending up with ... the Great [?] Wall.
But the last few games I've played (PTW, not always as scientific civs, either), I've landed it -- I assume because the AI civs are taking new, more varied paths through the tech trees. I now seem to reach literature first if I beeline for it -- which makes for either a great shot at the GL or a very lucrative tech to trade.
Can anyone confirm this impression?

	20-11-2002 23:15									#136
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Master Marcus no question that Bachs is useful. I tend to not want to take the time to get Music as it is not required to get to the next age. Since I do not play larger than std maps very often, it is of less value.

	21-11-2002 02:15									#137
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Master Marcus: I find Sistine to be more useful when playing Religious - cheaper cathedrals mean twice as many content citizens twice as fast.

Robber Baron: I've found the opposite. In PtW, I find the AI emphasizing the Library, as well as most of the other (used to be easy) wonders more than in Civ 3. Maybe it's because I play at Regent and sometimes Monarch.

	21-11-2002 03:03									#138
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I play Regent on a Large map and I go for Sistine when I play the Egyptians. The happiness bonus is awesome when you can build cheap cathedrals. The next best is Hoover. Again, playing continents on a large map this gives 90% of your cities a power plant with 0 pollution.

	21-11-2002 05:11									#139
	Remove this text

I agree on most of what's been said here, and Hoover Dam is one of the very few GW that's equally useful whatever the map size. I prefer Sistine over Bach's, and I can do it at Regent, but at Monarch the AIs generally beat me to it ( for Sistine ) so if I can't get Bach's at Monarch, I carefully plan for Smith's. The most important GW for me remains Hoover, and having that sole GW is sufficient to win when I play huge maps 'til modern era.

	21-11-2002 05:45									#140
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Do you find that having Hoover = Win means that ToE = Hoover = Win?

I love ToE, enough that it might be in my personal top 5, maybe.

	21-11-2002 05:49									#141
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Good point, Ducki. ToE is basically a Hoover strategy, and as such invaluable. Then selling the techs you acquire (carefully, preserving your window on exclusive Hoover construction) is bonus.

	21-11-2002 07:09									#142
	Remove this text

ToE is a strategy in and of itself, for me. It's often the only or at least the first wonder I build.

	21-11-2002 08:28									#143
	Increase Your PM Length

ducki, I would not state it like that, more like AI=Hoover equals what the heck am I doing. IOW the hoover doe not give me the win it is something I get because I am winning.

	21-11-2002 08:37									#144
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That's a very interesting viewpoint, vmxa1, I never thought of it that way.

For me, it's usually still quite a close game at the start of Industrialism, but fortunately, the AI never seems to head for Electricity.

I, on the other hand, (when it's a close game) always beeline for Electricity, knowing the power of a)Free Tech and b)Hoover Dam.

I've never not been able to buy the Nationalism branch, and depending on how close the game is, I have even skipped Steam Power (*gasp) to ensure I get to Scientific Method first. It's worth so much that I can't afford to let the AI get there first.

I'm probably not doing something "right" in the Middle Ages for it to always be that close when the decision comes between Nationalism, Steam, and Medicine, but at least this time around (AU205) I'm at the 4-turn per tech stage.

Also, I didn't say Hoover=Win, someone else did, I just expanded Hoover to be equal to ToE. Or at least strongly related.

I've never not gotten ToE and Hoover, but it's also never been a "sure thing" because I'm in the driver's seat. It's been a decision, not a reward.


I do really like the viewpoint you gave me on it, though.
Thanks v.

	21-11-2002 15:10									#145
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hi ,

in the later stages of the game its usefull to have the CFC and Longevity , the later one is usefull when you go to war , if there is enough food in the city ( at place x ) then you very quickly get rid of unhappy expatriots (citizens from the previous civ )

have a nice day

	21-11-2002 20:29									#146
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I agree that ToE is important, but it doesn't speed me to Hoover. I usually discover Electricity before I have the ToE built and I will change over to Hoover from ToE if I didn't start a 'false palace' in anticipation.

RE: Smith's... This is the 'Nail in the Coffin'. Assuming you have all the important resources, Smith's puts you in the financial position to have your way with the AI.

	21-11-2002 22:22									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Bierkieser I agree that ToE is important, but it doesn't speed me to Hoover. I usually discover Electricity before I have the ToE built and I will change over to Hoover from ToE if I didn't start a 'false palace' in anticipation.

Ah, I will usually go back and get whichever tech has Factories and Replaceable Parts while it's building(only about 10 turns in my latest game) and then catapult to Electronics with a couple of towns that have factories already built working on a prebuild for Hoover.


Actually, I should note that the 10-turn build for ToE was in a town with rail around most of the tiles and the IronWorks, so it's probably a 20-turn build in a "normal" good wonder-building city.


Another option is to turn off your research for the 10-20 turns it takes to build ToE. If you've never tried it, do so. You wouldn't believe how much money you can accumulate in just a few turns. Especially if you've been at 70% research.

	21-11-2002 23:32									#148
	Increase Your PM Length

I will never skip steam power, it is always my first tech in the age. Once I get my rails up it is lights out. For one thing, you will get the boost from the tiles for getting the RR in place and for the other, now I can defend with fewer troops. The boost lets me get research done faster. What comes next maybe up for debate.

	21-11-2002 23:48									#149
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by ducki Another option is to turn off your research for the 10-20 turns it takes to build ToE. If you've never tried it, do so. You wouldn't believe how much money you can accumulate in just a few turns. Especially if you've been at 70% research.

I will try this in my current game. I'm usually at 60%-70% research at this stage so the extra gold could be worth it. Especially because this is the stage where I find out that I don't have coal or rubber within my borders so I have to go populate some small isolated island and rush build a harbor.

	22-11-2002 00:46									#150
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vmxa1 - now you mention it, I think I get Steam first, then beeline for Scientific Method, for exactly the reasons you gave - smaller required defense, boost in production, with the addition of faster reinforcements for whatever military campaign I may undertake. being able to transport a defender or artillery or attacker from deep within your empire all the way to the front in 0 or 1 turn is invaluable. Good catch.

Bierkieser - on my recent AU205 game, I found that I'd complete the ToE exactly in the middle of my current Research, so I reapplied my beeline to Electronics(Hoover), set research to Zero, and went from Net Income of 60 or 70gold to about 1000 or 2000 gold per turn. Which gave me enough money to upgrade all my old Numidian Mercs, Muskets, and Riflemen(no pikes) to Infantry with plenty left over for a rainy day.

Good luck, and don't ever pass up an opportunity for Ironworks, especially in your capitol or FP city.