09-12-2001 19:53									#61
	Top 5 Wonders Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

1: Pyramids - The only ancient wonder that doesn't run out. Plus Growth +++.

2: Sun Tzu - Similiar reasons to Pyramids. Especially useful for leaders/high quality, low numbers defence.

3: Sistine Chapel - With it Unhappiness is kept under control, without... Shudder.

4: Hoover Dam - Helps production, pollution, maintenance and saves time too! Just remember to sell the coal plants afterwards.

5: Intelligence Agency - A lot of people don't rate spies but you can get:
The numerical/type strength of opposing armies for free instead of we have a stonger/average/weaker military.
Propeganda, useful against communist/backward/changing gov civs - especially recently conquered and small strategic cities
To investigate cities in war time

	01-02-2002 18:29									#62
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Remember the good old days of civ II, where you would set six of your cities building the same wonder just so that when you researched the next wonder-science you could switch them. Thereby gaining a march of some 10-15 turns on the AI's quest for wonders.

Some efforts have been made to halt this process in civ III , but all is not lost as it can be achieved just as well by setting some of your cities to building the palace then upon developing the new wonder-science switching production to the new wonder. You will then get the new wonder within a couple of turns of it being available.

The best thing to do is to work out approx how many turns it will take you to get a particular wonder-science, then pick a city which will take one more turn than that to build a palace. Hey presto suddenly you've got all the best wonders no problemo.

If you appreciate this tip then show me some love!

	01-02-2002 23:55									#63
	Map type Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

One of the things missing from this thread (and a lot of strategy discussions) is the map type. Different wonders (or units or improvements or ...) have different value depending on the world type being played.

One that's often considered is archipelogo vs. pangea for Great Lighthouse, but there's more to it than that.

All the single-city wonders (Colussus, Newton, Copernicus, SETI, Iron Works (as if)) take on much higher significance on smaller worlds. Conversely, on huge maps, they're a lot less important.

Some of the "empire-wide" wonders are the opposite way. If you're only going to have ~7 cities, it's a lot easier to build the granaries than the Pyramids.

*NO* system of ranking anything can be complete without some mention of world type. It is only by recognizing this that we can improve our play. Without flexibility, you're doomed to playing one world type over and over when there's so much variety out there.

Arathorn

	02-02-2002 00:40									#64
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I do not really see SunTzu as a must, just a nice. You can afford barracks at that time if you want them. You do not need barracks in every city anyway (I often do thought). Pyramids is less important to me than Sun. In highest level games you do not really need to make a lot people as they are harder to keep happy. I do not build granaries and monarch or higher I have no chance to build that wonder first anyway. As was mentioned the level and map size is the determing factor an what wonders are best. Sistine, Colosus are the two that are valid regardless. Medieval wonders I can often get first as I have gone on the offense and get leaders. Ages after this wonders are all mine and AI civs are under serious pressure. I do try for Hanging Gardens, but rarely get it.

	02-02-2002 01:48									#65
	Re: Map type Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: [SIZE=1] *NO* system of ranking anything can be complete without some mention of world type. It is only by recognizing this that we can improve our play. Without flexibility, you're doomed to playing one world type over and over when there's so much variety out there. Arathorn

Well put, you're absolutely right.

I am curious about the Pyramid lovers... do most of you play large or huge maps?

Since I play normal maps, and my initial expansion usually ends up between 8-14 cities, the Pyramids just don't offer that much for me. I love Sun Tzu, but that's just because it makes things less tedious. The Sistine can't be compared to either the Pyramids or Sun Tzu, because it doesn't create a building in each city, it doubles the effects. That can't be duplicated.

-Arrian

	02-02-2002 04:07									#66
	Wrong on some Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Pyramids own. Period. They give you very good culture, and the granery in every city means very fast population growth in the long run. Early on, you don't need to worry about making graneries when you have the Pyramids. It amounts to faster growth and saved money from not having to pay maintenance for the essential graneries.

Shakespear's theater is garbage, period. Unless you have a size 25 city it just doesn't do anything but give mass culture to you culture assimilator freaks. Imagine what you could do with the army you would have instead of this stupid wonder.

Magellans Voyage- only for island lovers, it doesn't do very well on continent or pangaea. It doesn't make a huge difference except in naval war, and i avoid that at all cost.

Great Library- Only if you have more than 8 opponents. They will stay dumb and ignorant as long as they can to minimize the benefits you get from this. Just get a lot of military in the chaotic, dangerous ancient era that will decide the game. This is for you turtlers...

Sun Tzu- very, very good. Heal units fast after you take and subdue a city.

Good guide, just needs to be improved some. Think of the long-term effects of a wonder. This really helps Pyramids and Sun Tzu, if you have 20 cities and these 2 wonders you will be saving 40 gold per turn, and you never have to make these structures when you make a new city. The best wonders last the whole game.

The only disadvantage to making the Pyramids is having a war freak attacking me when i beat him to it by 2 turns. Oh wait, im the war freak and i do that stuff to the computer

	02-02-2002 04:14									#67
	Re: Wonder Guide Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Alex 14 Wall Street -- 5 This wonder gives your treasury interest every turn, I'm not sure how it works exactly, but the cash pouring in is definantly noticeable. You usually find on average you get noticeable bonus amounts of gold every turn. This is one of the best wonders in the game without doubt, don't spend all your resources trying to be the first to build it, since it's a small wonder, everyone can anyway.

It increases the amount your treasury recieves by 5%, with a limit of 50 gold per turn. So though it does help, it's not really that big of a deal.

	02-02-2002 11:39									#68
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

King, I hate to say this, but you could not be more wrong if you were two people unless youar playing the lowest levels. It is true that they last the whole game, but you do no need them. It is moot anyway as you will not be getting the pyramids at Monarch and above every often, if at all. You would be better off having that city do something else. As I said, you do not need or even want granaries at higher levels, unless you are going to pop rush all the time (not my style). Barracks are not made in most cities, can not waste the resources, by the time Sun is available, it is not needed. get if I can and often I can, but if not I just take it from them. All wonders will be mine in the end (unless I raze the town). At diety, wonders are not for building, they are for taking.

	02-02-2002 20:44									#69
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

My two cents:

Culture doesn't matter to me. I consistently blow out the AI civs on culture just by making temples a high priority. In any event, I've never won via culture, or aimed to.

The UN ending is not lame, IMO. Turn it off if you like, but I leave it on. For starters, it makes for a quicker ending, and that's always good. Further, it rewards peacable types. If I were playing multi player, and it came down to a vote and I wasn't on the ballot, I'd vote for whoever wasn't a **** to me. If both the leaders were jerks, I'd abstain, maybe.

Pyramids would be nice, but not worth making a priority. I'd rather go for the colossus, with an eye on picking up Newton+Copernicus in the same city later.

I tend to play militaristic civs, so barracks are cheap. Therefore Sun Tzu isn't a big deal. Yes, Sun Tzu + Leo's = cheap and easy upgrades, but I don't play on huge/large maps very often, so my empires are managable.

Also, I play on continents, so the Great Lighthouse is quite useful. Unfortunately I tend to emphasize the colossus over it and sometimes miss out on it.

The Sistine and JS Bach's are my only major efforts. Sometimes I don't even bother with a forbidden palace. If I don't get the Sistine, well, it's going to be interesting when it doesn't happen, I guess. I'll start building a palace back in the ancient period prior to the republican revolution. That's how important the Sistine is to me.

	03-02-2002 03:48									#70
	I guess it depends on map size Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Pyramids will help explosive growth if you get them early. As for taking wonders on deity, that is just plain suicide .

Graneries are for dirty things like pop rushing and drafting. I think the Pyramids are a long-term investment. I have many cities just for guarding resources or as border shields, and the free graneries can be very helpful there. The border shield states are not for keeping people happy so i use them as soldier makers, even if it means sacrificing population.

And that gets me to another point. Graneries are so important on deity because of the very,very bad corruption. A city 3/4 of a screen from your capital might get you 3 shields, if you are lucky. To fight the deity level corruption, you need to use your cities population to fuel you war-machine. When units start to get really expensive at the medieval era, you need to start rushing/drafting up units instead of waiting 50 turns for that knight to finish building.

Sun Tzu/Pyramids will work great for the border states that take 40+ turns to make these improvements anyway.

Pyramids are for players on any map that can be won without cheap horseman rushes. You will save shields in the long run because you never have to make graneries, and you save money too.

JS Bachs Cathedral and the Systene Chapel are really good if you have very few luxeries, but i tend to get what i want.

There are the wonders for 1 city like the colossus, the observatory, and newtons college. And there are empire-like wonders like the pyramids and sun tzu. On a normal map, these are all useful.

But never even try to take wonders on deity level. Thats the easiest way to get wiped out.

	03-02-2002 08:53									#71
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I am not sure I followed whay you mean, by take wonders. I play all levels with all victory conditions off, except military. This means you must eliminate civs. In so doing I sometimes grab their wonders, other times I raze them (mostly). You do need to pop rush at diety, and that is why I no longer play it. I prefer to not use that technic. You sure as hell are not going to build any ancient wonders first (colosus can be snuck in). At least not using the rules that came with the game (maybe some freak start could net one). Since they start with 12 extra unit (plus type 1 and 2) you have to be careful and let them spread out so you can pick off some before they can mass. So to me either I can not get the pyramids or if I can I do not need it.

	03-02-2002 13:29									#72
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

You said wonders are for the taking, i guess they are if thats the only way to win the game! My mistake, didn't know you set it to military only.

Anyway, i have been thinking that the large and huge map sized are more balanced because it allows you to get more cities, more units, and a reasonable chance to get a leader! Because you will have more units, it means you will have a better chance of getting a leader and make armys.

Because of this thought, i think the pyramids are very valuable. They make more of a difference on a large map where you actually get leaders!

If you have a 1/13 chance to get a leader, why didn't i get one after winning 13 battles? Or 20? OR 25!!!!!!!

Thats why large maps are better and wonders that work best with them are best.

	04-02-2002 00:10									#73
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Yeah I agree that that pyramids are a good thing. I no longer play on maps greater than std as it was fun, but gets to tedious at the end. If I allowed all forms of victories, then it would be fine. Other wise, once you have grab 60-70 cities and see scores left, it is depressing. I actualy like small maps no as I can get after a civ very soon. I would like to see a game option to turn off goody huts. I do not want to go to an editor and find them and remove them.

	04-02-2002 07:27									#74
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Rasslin,

You're not getting leaders after 25 victories with elite units? Do you have a leader somewhere already?

You're not guaranteed a leader just because you've won 16 times with elites, tho, or 100 times. You'll be likely to, tho.

1/16 chance is the figure I've usually heard.

	05-02-2002 09:15									#75
	Leaders Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I killed dozens of warriors with my immortals/legions and i didn't get a leader. I have also killed a lot of people with elite impi.

1/16 leaders means that you should get a leader after 16 elite wins. But you might be lucky to get a single leader during a whole game.

Large maps are more balanced since you have a decent chance of ever getting a leader. The Heroic Epic is probably the best wonder since it raises your chances of getting that free wonder from a leader.

Leaders are so stupid, they don't belong in Civ 3!

They take away the strategy and it becomes all about luck. Some people are born to be stupid, some people are born to be champions, some people are born to never get a stupid leader in Civ 3!

	05-02-2002 21:26									#76
	Increase the size of your Attachments

if you play a militaristic civ, your chances improve to get a leader. Some games I get more leaders than I have options to build wonders - that is I get a leader rush a wonder, get another leader rush another wonder, etc etc, to the point where I just have a leader sitting idle until I get a tech with wonder building.

	06-02-2002 14:37									#77
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by player1 Sheakespear Th. - 0 (ZERO) What's the point of this wonder.

Shakespeare's Theater has the highest cultural rating of any wonder in the game (8!). It's a good wonder to get if you're going for cultural victory of a single city, but otherwise is probably a waste of time

- Windwalker

	06-02-2002 20:35									#78
	Remove this text

asides from it cultural value, shakespeare's theatre makes tons of people content. Say you have a city smack in the middle of grassland and/or floodplains, you can imagine how large in population it will reach. Build the theatre and you won't hardly have to worry about that city ever going into disorder.

Very useful wonder for me

	07-02-2002 00:18									#79
	Support Apolyton

I happened to be looking at the box yesterday and there's a screenie of a city view with what looks like every wonder in the game, even the iron works. I thought, wow, how'd they get their city to look so good? Oh. Not so hard when you have the gardens, shakespeare's, and the sistine all in one neighborhood.

	07-02-2002 01:50									#80
	Odds of Getting a GL Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

A comment on the odds of getting a GL issue:

Think of this just like flipping a coin. The odds of getting heads on any flip are 50/50. If you flip a coin 10 times it is possible to get no heads, 10 heads, 5 heads or any other number of heads between 0 and 10. Getting anything other than 5 heads out of 10 coin flips does not mean the odds of getting heads are not 50/50. But, the more times you flip the coin the closer you will be to a 50/50 split between number of heads and tails you get.

Similarly, the odds of getting a leader from an elite unit victory for each individual attack are 1/16 (1/12 for militaristic civs). Out of 100 battles you could get no leaders and out of 3 battles you could get 2. This does not change the odds.

So, if you want to see the "expected" result -- a GL every 12 or 16 battles -- you'll just need to make a lot of attacks with elite units

Last edited by KithrupFugitive on 07-02-2002 at 02:10

	07-02-2002 03:30									#81
	Great Leader Generation Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well said. That's it exactly. I can see that it could be frustrating for those who expect to get 1 leader per 16 elite victories. I've had 30 or so w/o a leader, and I've gotten a leader from the first elite victory.

On Shakespeare's:

Great for the culture points, and it can be nice to have 1 city that will not, under just about any circumstances, go into disorder. But to be honest, I usually skip it for other wonders I feel are more important.

-Arrian

	07-02-2002 04:21									#82
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Actually, Shakey's is one that you don't mind an enemy getting. It makes it easier to keep their city.

	08-03-2002 04:50									#83
	Increase Your PM Length

How come so many people are dissing the Great Library??? Do they realize just how much money it can make you??? When i build it, i usually set my science to zero and load up on the cash. Then when somebody finally gets education, you will have enough cash to by all the other techs and open a huge lead in the space race. It is also very usefull if you wan't to go to war in the ancient era and dont want to fall hopelessly behind.

Thx

	08-03-2002 20:37									#84
	Increase Your PM Length

Trickey,

on higher levels the tech acceleration goes too fast, reducing the benefits of GL.
By the time you've built the GL (that is IF you succeed in beating the AI civs), education will lure (or lurk?) around the corner.

AJ

	08-03-2002 20:58									#85
	Remove this text

I play on Monarch, and I love the Great Library. I usually build it right around the same time as the AI gets the Pyramids (I use Pyramids as a shield holder, and sometimes build the GL before the AI gets done with the Pyramids... though not usually). At that point, I have usually researched my way to literature, along with math, and have bought the wheel. The GL gets me pottery, warrior code, ironworking (though sometimes I buy this), mapmaking, mysticism, polytheism, monarchy, construction, horsebackriding, and whatever else there is besides currency and republic, which I research myself. Then I'm into the Middle Ages, and the GL will get me Monotheism, Engineering and sometimes Invention before I get Education (either through the GL or by researching it myself).

I'm sure one could buy oneself to tech parity w/o the GL, but I like doing it this way, and it does provide a ton of culture.

-Arrian

	08-03-2002 21:25									#86
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Theory of Evolution now gives you two techs; whatever you are currently working on plus whatever you choose after that, so it works like it did in civ2.

	09-03-2002 07:10									#87
	Re: Re: Wonder Guide (incomplete) Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Monoriu Personally I'll give it a 0.

Then personally you are stupid.

The GL is well worth the leader rush. That's how you have to get it. Pretty much the only way too, I've never got it normally on a high difficulty level.

	09-03-2002 21:12									#88
	Shakespeare i Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Windwalker Shakespeare's Theater has the highest cultural rating of any wonder in the game (8!). It's a good wonder to get if you're going for cultural victory of a single city, but otherwise is probably a waste of time - Windwalker

Shakespeare's Theater isn't a must have wonder, but it isn't that pointless/useless as many of you state. Imagine a city surrounded by masses of grass lands ... imagine yourself succeeding in building or rushing Newton's University, Shakespeare's Theater and SETI Program: you'd experience the best science output ever possible in civ3. A side effect of the combined use of these three wonders in one city (the so called super science city) is that you'd probably be able to lower your civ's science rate, generating more gold, useable for instantly buying the newest and necessary improvements or for building up your army.

Generally, I think most Great Wonders have some use, and if possible (which of course isn't) you should build almost all of them.

AJ

	09-03-2002 21:54									#89
	Full PM-box? Change here!

for a super science city Copernicus' Observatory can't be left out of course ...

AJ

	10-03-2002 05:06									#90
	Inflate your Upload Space

AJ,

Thanks i never thought of that.

-trickey