04-12-2001 19:05									#61
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quote: this guy never actually fought the U.S. He was being bombed by the U.S. but he did not retaliate (mostly because he couldn't ). He then retreated with other Taliban soldiers. He never fired a shot at a U.S. citizen.

Being on the business end of a B-52 is still being in conflict with the US (if you're the target, that is).

And he could've very well taken part in the battle at the fortress. US and British special forces took part in that battle.

	04-12-2001 20:18									#62
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He should be treated exactly like other taliban. Because he was born in America he should get different priviledges?

His dad wants the US to send him back to the country that he hates (he approved of the cole bombing and 9-11). But that is bs. Let the little f*cker stay with his friends. He put himself in this mess, and his daddy, or his daddys lawyer shouldnt be able to bail him out.

	04-12-2001 20:22									#63
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I'll respond to your point dissident.....even though its moronic as usual.

Guilt by association? The guy openly supports the taliban. Taliban is US enemy. Therefore he is enemy. Got it? Good.

He can't just quit now and say "oh, I changed my mind, take me back US! I need to come home and help my fanatic buddies plot another great event like 911!"

	04-12-2001 20:30									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Do you think he's related to the Captain Walker who went to Central America in the early 19th century to set up his own kingdom?

Apparently not, since his full name is John Phillip Walker Lindh.

Still, you have to wonder. The US representitive in Yugoslavia was named William Walker, and he was one of the people who took the press to the aftermath of the battle of Racek, where the dead KLA had been laid out to look like they had been executed in a ditch and proclaimed to the world there had been a massacre of civilians in Kosovo.

	04-12-2001 20:37									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Lefty - It is if the accused lives in another country and is defending that country and it's government from US attacks. The act of treason requires that the accused is waging war against the US and/or aiding and abetting the enemy - no declaration of war, no enemy. Since he cannot be charged with aiding and abetting an enemy absent an actual declaration of war, the accused must be actively waging war against the US, but this guy was only defending himself from attack - from the NA and if the US was a participant, illegal attacks. Otherwise anyone who resists an unlawful (or lawful) arrest would be guilty of treason. Again, the Rosenburgs were not charged with treason because no war had been declared against the USSR.

Wrong, wrong, and wrong, you amateur lawyers get tedious after a while, particularly the one who think their is a huge legal significance to a declaration of war. Waging war does not include declaration of war as a necessary element (12/8/41 no declaration pf war against Japan, a resolution that war had existed since the time of Pearl Harbor attack, rather than from the time the Japanese note {itself not even a D O W} was delievered, and authorizing the president all war powers). In the US declaration of war is primarily an internal power balancing matter matter, not creating a state of war with the emeny (which has most commonly occurs when hotilities were begun, ala 12/7/41 or 9/11/01), the declaration is a formal grant of additional war powers to the president by the congress. Another poster is coreect in saying that legally a war powers declaration does all that a D O W does. A state of war has existed since hotilities began 9/11 for most legal purposes, other than the formal of additional "war powers" to the president which occured with the congrssional act. Waging war against the USA, in this particular instance, would be doing or assisting any act of hostilities aginst the USA or it forces abroad. Merely remaining in with the forces of some entity we are egaged in open hotilities with, the Taliban, would likely be enough of a res. The Rosenbergs were not prosecuted for treason not because of the lack of delcaration, but because we were not engage in open hostilities with the forces they were helping. USSR & USA were not shooting at each other at that time. Overall, tTreason is a very broad crime and covers a very large number of acts. It is, however, rarely prosecuted. 99.99% of its instances in the USA have recieved amnesty or been prosecuted for other crimes. Constantly repeating amateur bullshit about some majic of a D O W, does not change it from being amateur BS. Most especially stupid is the misconception that that there is a special formula of words that congress must use to declare war. Congress has plenary power over D O W, if they say it is war, it is war, regardless of how they worded the resolution.

	04-12-2001 20:41									#66
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He can neither be tried nor convicted of treason. The Constitution sets a very high standard both for the crime and the conviction thereof. He has to have either given aid and comfort to the enemy or waged war upon the US and there must be two witnesses willing to testify against him. It is unlikely that any of the conditions can be met.

He could be charged with seditious conpsiracy (wtf is that, btw?). I'm not sure I like the sound of that. I'm seditious most of the time. I'm even in an active seditious conspiracy (I act together with people who want to over throw the US government). Anyone know what the heck this law is? I thought sedition was legal.

	04-12-2001 20:47									#67
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara He could be charged with seditious conpsiracy (wtf is that, btw?).

This is the best I could find for you, che.

(3) A seditious conspiracy is an agreement between two or more persons to carry out a seditious intention.
(4) Without limiting the generality of the meaning of the expression "seditious intention", every one shall be presumed to have a seditious intention who
(a) teaches or advocates, or
(b) publishes or circulates any writing that advocates, the use, without the authority of law, of force as a means of accomplishing a governmental change within Canada.

I assume there is a similar law in the US.

	04-12-2001 20:51									#68
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So if he cant be tried for treason, what should he be tried for? Surely you can't suggest that such an obvious threat to society should go un-punished?

	04-12-2001 20:52									#69
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Probably, except Canada doesn't have a guaranteed right to free speech. None of the Commonwealth countries do. One of those things I do love about the United States. I can't imagine having to shut up all of the time (as opposed to just while I'm at work).

	04-12-2001 20:54									#70
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Probably, except Canada doesn't have a guaranteed right to free speech.

Found the US law:

18 U.S.C. §2384, Seditious conspiracy (June 25, 1948)

If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.

	04-12-2001 20:54									#71
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BTW, drake, love the Botticelli. Definately one of my favorite painters.

	04-12-2001 20:57									#72
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Well, that pretty much describes me, at least in general. I wonder if it requires a specific act, rahter than organizing to over throw the government sometime in the undefined future?

	04-12-2001 20:58									#73
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Che, what make you think that it will be difficult to get the testimony of two witness to Walker was maong the 300 odd persons in the taliban unit which was fighting aginst the Na & USA forces at Mazr I Sharif. We do not even not foreigners that were plenaty of USA Personel when he was pulled out of the basement, beside the millions who have seen his owm statement of TV, were corraberat much of what is neeeded. All that is needed is two witnesses saying that he was part of a Taliban unit which was egaged in hostilities with USA forces. Remaining with that unit would after hostilities began would be a sufficient res.

	04-12-2001 21:03									#74
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I agree with lefty. I think he's in some pretty hot water. Daddy and his lawyer probably can't get him out of this.

(che- titian is my fave renaissance painter, but you gotta appreciate venus )

	04-12-2001 21:03									#75
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I dunno, I'm thinking they won't rat on each other. Maybe I give them a little too much credit. But you know what, I don't know enough about the situation he was in, so I'll shut up and just seditiously conspire here in Jacksonville. . . .


Now if I could find someone around here to conspire with.

	04-12-2001 21:09									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo This is not war but police action, rather. They call it to root out a government that needs to be rooted out.

Therefore this man, who looks like Charles Manson, is guilty of nothing.

quote: It is called Police Action, and he did not commit any crime.

He is guilty of crimes against the civilians of Afghanistan.

	04-12-2001 23:45									#77
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well guess what? my point was not moronic, because I am right.

this guy is going to be sent back to the U.S. with a slap on the wrists. His family will just claim he was brainwashed.

	04-12-2001 23:58									#78
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The only brain that should be washed, is his brains, off the walls after we shoot him

Why don't we let all the other "brainwashed" afghanis go as well? They let someone like this go, just because he is american and you compromise a lot of integrity! He doesn't desrve anything more than any other taliban soldier.

No real comment on this, as it means very little...but its a small peek at public opinion (even if it is from "biased" cnn):

Attachment: cnn.gif
This has been downloaded 50 time(s).

	05-12-2001 00:56									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident my point was not moronic,

Yes, it was. Don't worry though. It is par for the course for you.

quote: because I am right.

Yes you are and let me tell you why. He was an active part of the Taliban unit that fired on NA & US forces at the Mazar e sharif prison riot. Now how does that qualify as never actually fight the US.

quote: His family will just claim he was brainwashed.

Too late.

	05-12-2001 01:01									#80
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dp

	05-12-2001 01:01									#81
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how do you know he actually fired on allied forces in that battle? Were you there.

You know nothing. Yet you claim other people are moronic.

I can only go by this guys word. And in the article I read last night he said he did not fire on anyone during the uprising. He was hiding in the basement area for 7 days with a wounded leg, when the area was flooded and the survivors were flushed out. This guy spent a week among dead bodies down there. He was hiding like a little rat, he was attacking no one.

	05-12-2001 01:05									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I can only go by this guys word.

That's why I called you a moron. Imagine believing a criminal, of all things, trying to save his own skin.

	05-12-2001 01:07									#83
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A soldier is a soldier. Why try blurring the lines? If he didnt want to be a part of it, he shouldnt have been there. He made a choice, and now must deal with the consequences of his choice.

A pow gets the same treatment whether he killed 100 of the conquering force or 0. Don't do the crime if you cant do the time.

	05-12-2001 01:19									#84
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yes but did he have a choice

many of you are forgetting he joined the Taliban prior to Sep11. Do you think they would let him desert the military? We don't even allow that in the U.S. Desertion is a serious crime.

Yes he supported Sept 11. But I heard guys in bars here in the U.S. say the same thing. They said they didn't care about the rich people in the WTC, and he was glad they were dead. Shall we try him for treason as well?

	05-12-2001 01:27									#85
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He envied the taliban and their strict islamic beliefs. He sought them out. You can be damn sure they werent out recruiting white americans!

Yes, it was his choice and his choice alone. He's guilty by association. Anyone in the taliban is.

As far as people that would say that anyone deserved to die on 911 dont deserve to be tried for treason because they werent in afghanistan, carrying a machine gun, siding with the enemy

They do however, probably need a good ass kicking. Boy, if I ever heard someone say something like that in public

	05-12-2001 03:27									#86
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Just put him in prison as a POW, and then later sentence him for life or something. Killing him would be an act of barbarism, so just lock him up and throw away the key and be done with it.

	05-12-2001 08:46									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Lonestar - If we are to charge and convict a US citizen of treason, they have to be convicted of waging war against us - the Congress never declared war.

That isn't relavent. If it were, spies during the cold war couldn't have been tried for treason.

	05-12-2001 11:36									#88
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Which they weren't, IIRC.

	05-12-2001 18:54									#89
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What people seem to be missing here is that he joined the Taliban way back in May, which is 4 months before 11-9...

Consequently I don't think he was guilty of committing a treasonous act per se, especially considering the Taliban were receiving US aid and were in negotiations over the oil pipeline etc...

Now if he'd joined as a direct result of 11-9 that would be a different matter indeed, as he would be responding directly to an attack on the US.

Add to that the fact that he has effectively been brainwashed from spending time at Madrassas in Pakistan, I think what we have here is the case of 'Patty Hearst Syndrome'.

He didn't declare war on the US - the US declared war on him!

Finally, while I abhor and condemn the attacks on the WTC, I would say they were similar to in their effect as say Dresden or Hiroshima where tens of thousands of civilians were incinerated...

So if a person can condone and support those attacks, I cannot see how they can turn round and cry foul for the 11-9 attacks.

	05-12-2001 19:22									#90
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I have heard he supported the attack on the USS Cole, although I haven't been able to verify the claim.

He has confirmed that he DOES support the 9-11 attacks.