03-12-2001 09:44									#1
	Mars Mod Thread 1: Planning Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Well someone had to make one eventually

This project to be hosted at my soon to be website, http://www.trakoria.f2s.com/index.php which is currently being re-re-re-designed

Will not actually start the mod yet, it is my opinion that you need to know a game backwards to know what to mod, and therefore I need more time. However this thread is for ideas. Throw them in; units, civs, citizens, techs, anything. This is an ambitious mod: everything will attempted to be changed, over the course of about 1.5 years I am thinking long-term here

So shoot and post all ideas.

And a few questions from me:
1. If you place folders in the scenario directory can you overwrite exisiting files?
2. Is there any game out there that uses futuristic modern units and it is knowon of a way to extract them? For example AOE2 has many middle-age units that can be extracted, but not modern-age units. CTP has modern ages units, but there is no un-spriter. What about Empire Earth?

Last edited by heardie on 03-12-2001 at 11:58

	04-12-2001 02:54									#2
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C'mon. Anyone?

	04-12-2001 14:23									#3
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ok... lemme see here.
when does the game start, in the near future i presume?
how about that colony pod from SMAC as a settler, or something like that.
there's low gravity on mars, so aircraft would have an increased range.
Wasn't the 8-range limit hardcoded?
The map should have very little food, unless farms or something like arew build on them.

i have more ideas, but first i have got some questions:
does global warming raise sea levels, and can you modify global warming effects, like turning off that grasslands turn into plains.

personally i don't think you can make a total conversion, too many things are hardcoded.

	04-12-2001 16:38									#4
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good, i was hoping someone would start working on a mars mod. Wont it be kinda hard to mod civ3 that much? mod-makers are having a tough time as it is. Guess we'll have to wait for firaxis to provide us with some more tools!

	04-12-2001 16:42									#5
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here's a suggestion: a unit that pollutes the surface to heat up the planet - this is what scientists are considering when we send humans to mars. Perhaps you can give a worker the option of terrraforming land (if that's possible), and make a new animation for the unit. once the temperature climate rises, it becomes easier to produce food or whatever.

	04-12-2001 16:44									#6
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water/ice will be a strategic resource! LOL

	05-12-2001 01:53									#7
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quote: Originally posted by ElitePersian here's a suggestion: a unit that pollutes the surface to heat up the planet - this is what scientists are considering when we send humans to mars. Perhaps you can give a worker the option of terrraforming land (if that's possible), and make a new animation for the unit. once the temperature climate rises, it becomes easier to produce food or whatever.

i was almost thinking the same thing, is sea level rise due to global warming in civ3, you could have a building that produces a lot of pollution, then after while seas would start to form, but now that i think of it, this would only be possible in smac, where you have elevation.

	05-12-2001 04:11									#8
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Yes, currently the game probably could not be done that well. But I have faith in an improved editor. For know I will concentrate on the graphics.

quote: water/ice will be a strategic resource!

Heres the deal: Often realsim will have to be sacrificed for gameplay. I think that we need water/oceans to make it a good game

quote: here's a suggestion: a unit that pollutes the surface to heat up the planet - this is what scientists are considering when we send humans to mars. Perhaps you can give a worker the option of terrraforming land (if that's possible), and make a new animation for the unit. once the temperature climate rises, it becomes easier to produce food or whatever.

Probably not possible yet, but I like the idea

Also the first unit will not be a colony pod, I figure enough will be stolen from SMAC as it is, the settler unit is simply known as the colonist.

	05-12-2001 05:33									#9
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quote: i was almost thinking the same thing, is sea level rise due to global warming in civ3, you could have a building that produces a lot of pollution, then after while seas would start to form, but now that i think of it, this would only be possible in smac, where you have elevation.

On that note, global warming in all civ games changes one kind of terrain into another. Has anyone polluted the map enough to change more than three or four squares before they win/lose? If so how far does global warming go in civ3?

I remember playing a game of Civ1 (on chieftan level) where I discovered that global warming was actually a GOOD thing, since it allowed mega stonkingly huge cities. I'll explain Eventually, ALL terrain becomes jungle or swamp. Clear them and you have beautiful virgin (mostly bonus I might add)
grassland. Not only that but the AI has no
idea whats going on and practically stops developing.

They seem to have improved the game some what since then though I guess.

	05-12-2001 08:09									#10
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Hmm... wouldn't the planes get less lift or need more trust since the air is much thinner? Plus CO2 poisoning, you'll need some technology just to walk outside safely

Anyway, for ideas, you should read the Red Mars, Green Mars and Blue Mars (they're a trilogy) by Kim Stanley Robinson. They're great, the author really thinks ahead of his time.

	05-12-2001 18:52									#11
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Perhaps we could create a mod based loosely on the Red Mars, Green Mars, Blue Mars trilogy. That series went heavily into the development of a unique martian culture, and also was written in depth to include technologies and such. Some ideas:

Civilizations:

Orginal colonists
Miners
Religious Outcasts
Colonists from major nations (USA,China, Russia, and EU)
Social outcasts (convicts)
Pro-Terraform scientists
Eco Scientists (against terraforming)
Corporations
Feral groups


Technologies:

Non-combustion engines (not enough O2 on mars)
Martian flight (the air on mars is 5% the thickness of Earth. Terran airplanes would have a tough time of it.)
Advanced Polymers
Martian Ecology
Regolith Processing (an early tech on par with pottery)
Genetic Engineering (would allow farming on mars)
Advanced Genetic Engineering (would allow longevity treatment small wonder)
Advanced Plastics (would allow bubble cites)
Advanced Robotics (workers replaced by robotic Formers)
Fusion (faster spacecraft, power plants)
Advanced Space Flight (would allow the mining of asteroids, maybe a +X production to al cities connected to the space elevator)

Units:

Air Ship
Rovers
Colonists (settler)
Worker
Former (advanced Worker)
Ultralight
Glider
Space Plane
Infantry
Attack Satelite
Terrorists (not getting back on the off topic discussion in this thread, i'm thinking of small groups of eco-terrorists who destroy equipment - these could replace barbarians, or not)
Sailboat
Powerboat
Cruiser
Submarine


Wonders:

Space elevator
Longevity Treatment
Martian Councel (major wonder)
Phobos base (major wonder)
Deimos base (major wonder)
Earth Trade route


Maps:

In order to simluate the terraforming of mars, we could utilize a system I saw once in WW2 scenario that simulated seasons. Whenever a secific level of poluttion is reached (this is assuming an events options is included at some point), the game can save itself,and then reopen with a new map. The way this was done was to report unit, city, and civ information in some sort of file, and then recreate everything in what was a new scenario. In this way, we could make several maps with different sea levels.


Those are just some of my ideas. It would also be nice to have some very accurate maps. It would really enhance the play.

	06-12-2001 03:20									#12
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well you cant help but stealing ideas from SMAC, we are basically trying to re-create SMAC here with the civ3 tools.

	06-12-2001 05:27									#13
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quote: Originally posted by ElitePersian well you cant help but stealing ideas from SMAC, we are basically trying to re-create SMAC here with the civ3 tools.

Not steal...borrow and build upon. It is not a re-creation of SMAC, Civ3 and SMAC have totally different engines that would make this impoossible. Re-creating SMAC in Civ 3 I would not like as a goal, this mod is planning on being an entirly new game.

	06-12-2001 05:31									#14
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quote: Originally posted by fezick31 Perhaps we could create a mod based loosely on the Red Mars, Green Mars, Blue Mars trilogy. That series went heavily into the development of a unique martian culture, and also was written in depth to include technologies and such. Some ideas: Civilizations: Orginal colonists Miners Religious Outcasts Colonists from major nations (USA,China, Russia, and EU) Social outcasts (convicts) Pro-Terraform scientists Eco Scientists (against terraforming) Corporations Feral groups Technologies: Non-combustion engines (not enough O2 on mars) Martian flight (the air on mars is 5% the thickness of Earth. Terran airplanes would have a tough time of it.) Advanced Polymers Martian Ecology Regolith Processing (an early tech on par with pottery) Genetic Engineering (would allow farming on mars) Advanced Genetic Engineering (would allow longevity treatment small wonder) Advanced Plastics (would allow bubble cites) Advanced Robotics (workers replaced by robotic Formers) Fusion (faster spacecraft, power plants) Advanced Space Flight (would allow the mining of asteroids, maybe a +X production to al cities connected to the space elevator) Units: Air Ship Rovers Colonists (settler) Worker Former (advanced Worker) Ultralight Glider Space Plane Infantry Attack Satelite Terrorists (not getting back on the off topic discussion in this thread, i'm thinking of small groups of eco-terrorists who destroy equipment - these could replace barbarians, or not) Sailboat Powerboat Cruiser Submarine Wonders: Space elevator Longevity Treatment Martian Councel (major wonder) Phobos base (major wonder) Deimos base (major wonder) Earth Trade route Maps: In order to simluate the terraforming of mars, we could utilize a system I saw once in WW2 scenario that simulated seasons. Whenever a secific level of poluttion is reached (this is assuming an events options is included at some point), the game can save itself,and then reopen with a new map. The way this was done was to report unit, city, and civ information in some sort of file, and then recreate everything in what was a new scenario. In this way, we could make several maps with different sea levels. Those are just some of my ideas. It would also be nice to have some very accurate maps. It would really enhance the play.

Inspired post. However, map-making is my weak point. I would love someone maps, but no, not me.

	06-12-2001 07:25									#15
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Wow, you really kow your stuff about the trilogy. I've only finish the first book, which I find interesting. I've began Green Mars but got too busy to finish it. Anyway, there's lots we can get from there.

Anyway, about the map, I think there's lots of mar's maps out there we can base on. Maybe if we just get somebody to do a real good map for us (somebody made a real good map for earth. Why not mars?

	06-12-2001 08:07									#16
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Also see http://www.trakoria.f2s.com/mars.php for the MArs section

	07-12-2001 08:10									#17
	Re: The Terraforming Issue Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

What if there was a wonder available early on that had a pollution output level of around two hundred or so. The city that built it would be stagnant because of the pollution (just imagine it as a terraforming facility as opposed to a city). The wonder could become obsolete at a point that seems approriate after testing.

It seems to be possible (untested) to change the properties of a terrain type so that you can edit what it changes to when global warming occurs. For example, Jungles and Forests change to thier base terrain types - Grassland and Plains. If you made it so that:

- Mountains changed to ocean.
- Hills (food value 0) to sea.
- Tundra (food value to 0) to coast.
These are just some ideas and I haven't tested them but I hope they help.

	07-12-2001 08:18									#18
	Re: Re: The Terraforming Issue Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Gromit It seems to be possible (untested) to change the properties of a terrain type so that you can edit what it changes to when global warming occurs. For example, Jungles and Forests change to thier base terrain types - Grassland and Plains. If you made it so that: - Mountains changed to ocean. - Hills (food value 0) to sea. - Tundra (food value to 0) to coast. These are just some ideas and I haven't tested them but I hope they help.

Hmm... that's a really good idea! We can start the map with the pre-global warming tiles first and then when there's global warming, more and more tiles will change into this.. But I wonder how many tiles we're allowed to have and if we can advance tiles more than once (for example like mountains -> hill -> plain)

	07-12-2001 10:07									#19
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There may also be a crashing issue with units caught on tiles that change to sea.

	07-12-2001 16:15									#20
	Re: Re: The Terraforming Issue Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Gromit - Mountains changed to ocean. - Hills (food value 0) to sea. - Tundra (food value to 0) to coast. These are just some ideas and I haven't tested them but I hope they help.

mountains to ocean?
aren't mountains generally speaking the highest places on a planet, then how could they turn into ocean?
i was thinking at first you have a map with a lot of desert like tiles and then they turn into plains, later grassland and eventually forests and jungle.
There could be two sorts of desert tiles, one that turns into ocean and one that turns into plains. That way you could simulate high and low ground, the low ground would turn into seas and the high ground into forest eventually. Mountains and hills would stay the same.

what you get is:
desert tile 1 -> plains ->grassland -> forest -> jungle
desert tile 2 -> coast -> sea -> ocean
maybe with a polar tile that turns into desert tile 2.

but did anyone test if it's possible to change what tiles turn into after pollution?

	07-12-2001 18:02									#21
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Unless the vast majority of the map is made up of mountains/water, in other words un-settlable terrain, the AI will builld cities on land that is intended to disappear and therefore will probably (knowing the AI) lose half it's empire as a result. Thus resulting in an easy game.

On the matter of wether it's possible to change what terrain turns into as a result of global warming, I played a custom map, to engineer tons of pollution and not only did oceans not appear, but not a single square seemed to be affected... Strange, since three quarters of the map was polluted and I set all buildings to pump out 100 (max) pollution per turn.

I'm stumped.

	07-12-2001 19:41									#22
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quote: Unless the vast majority of the map is made up of mountains/water, in other words un-settlable terrain, the AI will builld cities on land that is intended to disappear and therefore will probably (knowing the AI) lose half it's empire as a result. Thus resulting in an easy game.

you could make it so that the player also doesn't know what will disappear and what will stay by making the two desert tiles exactly the same in appearance.

quote: On the matter of wether it's possible to change what terrain turns into as a result of global warming, I played a custom map, to engineer tons of pollution and not only did oceans not appear, but not a single square seemed to be affected... Strange, since three quarters of the map was polluted and I set all buildings to pump out 100 (max) pollution per turn.

well i just tested it, i made the palace produce 99 pollution, and after a while i saw plains turning into grasslands. and the only pollution on the map was near my capital city.

But i didn't check if oceans were appearing, i made it so that tundra changed into coast into sea into ocean, but my starting position wasn't very close to the poles.
One thing i did notice, tiles only change within your territory, but maybe i tested it too short to see it happen outside my borders.

here is an screenshot from before global warming :
look at Pasargadae, it's build on a plains tile.


and here is one after global warming
Pasargadae's city tile is now grasslands

	08-12-2001 05:56									#23
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Nice idea.

but does it work outside your territory

	08-12-2001 06:34									#24
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Hmm.. I don't seem to see any changes, but maybe I didn't look properly. Anyway, regard the terrain outside your territory, maybe it's because you will need to explore those areas again (or switch maps with the other civs) to get them updated

	08-12-2001 07:06									#25
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Here's a map of the red/green/blue mars books:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~fwb/rgbmars.html

Click Map

	08-12-2001 12:56									#26
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Here is a bic of that map converted straight from that bitmap..

I don't have time to preview it now, can somoeone use a ctility to reveal the map, then post the screenshot?

Attachment: bmptobic output.zip
This has been downloaded 6 time(s).

	09-12-2001 03:13									#27
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I was downloading the patch, so I can't give you an in game shot, but the map has a ton of water

	09-12-2001 05:50									#28
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Umm...don't bother wrong bic was attached

The other one didn't work anyway

	09-12-2001 23:17									#29
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I have just received a newsletter form JPL that they have found that the ice caps on mars are eroding. They say mars is warming up. I guess that the "pot holes" on the caps keep getting larger and larger each year, and that the CO2 level at the polar regions are rising as well.

	10-12-2001 07:46									#30
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To really do this mod justice would require an event editor and more terrain types. Right now the number of terrains is unchangable, which is why there's been no swamp added (that I know of). If they change things to allow us to add terrain types you could have terrains in sets of low, medium, and high altitude.

With an event editor you could make it so that when pollution reached a certain level, all low altitude plains and low altitude grassland became ocean, low altitude hills become sea, and whatever butts up against the sea becomes coast.

How do you turn a bitmap into a bic?