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Saint Marcus
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Scio Me Nihil Scire
Jan 1970
time: 06:16
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quote:
I know but its regular army, not possible conscripts, is not the largest. Actually, the Nigerian Army could be the largest... if it was at war... by far, if it called up all of its men to duty. No country does that because it could cause collapse though. You don't see China calling up 140 million men for duty, unless it is at war and it would impossible to arm them all. |
I wasn't talking about a regular army or a peacetime army. As it stands, Ethiopia has a massive army. Sure it isn't a well armed, well trained, well paid army, but an army no less. Sure it would be a lot smaller if the region was stable, but it isn't. So Ethiopia has the biggest army cause of all the wars and proxy-wars in the region.
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Saint Marcus
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Scio Me Nihil Scire
Jan 1970
time: 06:16
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Dutch military:
Navy:
Sailors+Marines: 17,000
Civilians: ??
Command & air destroyer: 1+4 ordered
Air defense frigate: 2
Frigate: 10
Submarines: 4
Amphibious transport: 1+1 ordered
Minehunter: 15
Replenishment ship: 2
Survey ship: 3
Station tender: 1 (converted floating oilrig)
Lynx helicopters: 21
Orian recon aircraft: 13
Armored vehicles, Patria: 20
Other vehicles: ??
Airforce:
F-16A/B, int/strike/recon/trng: 129
PC-7 Turbo-Trainer, trng: 13
DC-10-30 (KDC-10), tanker/trans: 2
C-130H-30, trans: 2
Fokker 60, trans: 4
Fokker 50, pass/trans: 2
F27 Maritime, MR/SAR: 2
BO 105CB/DB, AOP/liaison: 27
Alouette III, AOP/liaison: 9
AB 412SP, SAR: 3
CH-47C Chinook, trans: 7
CH-47D Chinook, trans: 6
As 532 Cougar Mk2, trans: 17
AH-64A, attack/scout: 12
AH-64D, attack/scout: 30
Gulfstreame IV, trans: 1
Enlisted personel: 11,500
Civilians: 1700
Army:
Soldiers: 24,000
Civilians: 9,000
Leopard 2NL, Main battle tank: 180
Light tanks: 1600
Airmobile special vehicles: 220
120mm mortars: 125
MLRS: 22
M109, Howitzer: 126
Intel systems: 4
Anti-air tanks: 60
Radar+anti-air systems: 30
Marechaussee (military border police):
Enlisted personel: 5000
Civilians: 250
Coastguard:
Enlisted personel: ??
Civilians: ??
Ships: ??
Total number of people working for defense: 54,500 enlisted, 20,000 civilians.
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Giancarlo
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Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:16
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The Spanish Armed Forces
(My turn, note: We really don't need a large Army, our Navy and Airforce are our good points. The Library of Congress said the Spanish Navy is the second largest in total size in Europe, after Britain. The Civil Guard has 75,000, seperate from the Police)
Spanish Army:
Enlisted: 100,000
Equipiment: 700 American M-60 Tanks, 300 Leopard 2 Tanks, 300 AMX-30 French Tanks, 1,200 M-113s as well as AML-60s and AML-90s, 1,200 BMRs IFVs
Army Aviavtion - 180 Helicopters (40 of which are equipped with HOT Antitank Missiles)
Spanish Legions:
Enlisted: 6,500
Equipiment: Mostly BMRs IFVs
Spanish Airforce
Enlistment: 29,100
Eurofighter EF 2000 - 87 (on order) int/attack
EF-18A/B Hornet - 83/12 int/attack/trng
RF-4C Phantom - 14 recon
Mirage F1C/E/B - 66 int/attack/trng
SF-5B/SRF-5A - 22/2 FGA/trng/recon
P-3A/B Orion - 2/5 MR/ASW
F-27 400MPA - 3 SAR/coast patrol
B 707- 320B/C - 3/1 trans/tanker
C-130H/H-30/KC-130H - 6/1/5 trans/tanker
CASA-235/M - 20 trans
CASA C-212 - 74 trans/trng/SAR/ECM
Spanish Navy
Enlistment: 37,000
VSTOL Aircraft Carrier: 1
AEGIS Class Destroyers: 4 (1 being fitted out, 3 planned)
Perry Class Frigates: 6
Knox (Upgraded) Class Frigates: 5
Light ASW Frigates: 4
S-80 Class Submarines: 4 are planned (Very new Design)
Agosta Class Subs: 4
Daphne Class Subs: 4
Spanish Marines
Enlistment: 11,500
Equipiment: Mainly Light Tanks, BMRs, and other stuff.
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Saint Marcus
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Scio Me Nihil Scire
Jan 1970
time: 06:16
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Spanish Alvaro de Bazan class destroyers VS Dutch De Zeven Provincien class command & air defense destroyers
Ships, Holland:
De Zeven Provincien, 4/2002, trials
Tromp, 2003, building
De Ruyter, 2004, building
Evertsen, 2005, ordered
Ships, Spain:
Alvaro de Bazan,9/2002, fitting out
Roger de Lauria, 2003, building
Blas de Lezo, 2004, ordered
Mendez Nunez, 2005, ordered
De Zeven Provincien class command & air defense destroyers
Displacement: 6,044 tons full load
Dimensions: 144.2 x 17.2 x 5.2 meters (473 x 56.5 x 17 feet)
Propulsion: 2 shafts, 2 cruise diesels; 2 SM1A boost gas turbines,
28-30 knots
Crew: 202 (incl. flag)
Aviation: deck and hangar for 2 helicopters
Radar: SMART-L and APAR radars
Sonar: Atlas-Werke hull mounted
Armament: 32 vertical launch SM-2MR, 32 vertical launch ESSM (Sea
Sparrow), 8 Harpoon SSM, 1 5/54 DP, 2 30 mm Goalkeeper CIWS, 2 20 mm,
4 12.75 inch torpedo tubes
Alvaro de Bazan class destroyers
Displacement: 5,802 tons full load
Dimensions: 146.7 x 17.5 x ?? meters (481 x 57.5 x ?? feet)
Propulsion: 2 shafts, 2 Bazan/MTU cruise diesels; 2 LM2500 boost
gas turbines, 47,494 shp, 29 knots
Crew: 229 +16 flag + 5 transients
Aviation: aft helicopter deck & hangar with RAST; 1 SH-60B
Radar: SPY-1D multifunction
Sonar: DE1160 bow
Fire Control: Aegis AAW system, DLT-309 ASW system, 2 Mk 99 missile
control with SPG-62 radars
EW: Aldebaran & Mk9000, 2 SRBOC, SLQ-25A Nixie
Armament: 1 48 cell VLS (Standard SM-2MR, ESSM), 8 Harpoon SSM,
1 5/54 DP, 1 20 mm Meroka CIWS, 4 12.75 inch torpedo tubes, 2 20 mm
Spanish design with AEGIS AAW system and a powerful ASW capability.
 Tough one.
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Saint Marcus
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Scio Me Nihil Scire
Jan 1970
time: 06:16
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Spain:
VSTOL carrier (16,917 tons, 1988): 1
Alvaro de Bazan class destroyers (5,802 tons, 2002/5): 4 ordered
Santa Maria (Perry) class frigates (3,982 tons, 1986/95): 6
Baleares (Knox) class frigates (4,177 tons, 1973/76): 5
Descubierta class light ASW Frigates (1,640 tons, 1980/82): 4
S-80 class submarines (1,565 tons, 2005/??): 4 ordered
Galerna (Agosta) class coastal submarines (1,767 tons, 1981/84): 4
Delfin (Daphne) class coastal submarines (1,043 tons, 1973/75): 4
Holland:
De Zeven Provincien class command & air defense destroyers (6,044 tons, 2002/5): 4 ordered
Tromp class command & air defense destroyers (4,308 tons, 1976): 1
Jacob Van Heemskerck ("L") class air defense frigates (3,750 tons, 1986): 2
Kortenaer ("Standard") class frigates (3,786 tons, 1981/82): 2
Karel Doorman ("M") class frigates (3,320 tons, 1991/94): 8
Walrus class submarines (2,800 tons, 1992/94): 4
Comparison:
Submarines: Spain has 8 old coastal subs, while Holland has 4 newer ocean going subs twice as heavy as the Spanish ones. 4 newer Spanish subs are ordered, but won't come in service before 2005.
Destroyers: Spain has currently no destroyers in service, Holland has 1 old Tromp class. From 2002 to 2005 both fleets will recieve 4 modern destroyers.
Frigates: Spain has 15, Holland 14. 9 Spanish frigates are older than 19 years, versus only 2 Dutch ones. The Spanish Descubierta class is only 1,600 tons, but the Knox class frigates are 4,100.
Carriers: Spain has one VSTOL carrier, Holland has none.
Hmmmm. Very tough one.
8 coastal subs, 9 old frigates, 6 new frigates, 1 VSTOL carrier VS 4 ocean-going subs, 2 old frigates, 12 new frigates, 1 old destroyer.
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Saint Marcus
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Scio Me Nihil Scire
Jan 1970
time: 06:16
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Now who's the one not knowing anything about military equipment?  Half the Spanish navy is 20 years old and has no ocean going submarines! So outside the coast of Spain the Armada only has 1 very small carrier and 15 frigates, of which most are older than 20 years old.
15 frigates + 1 small carrier VS 17 frigates, 4 submarines, 1 destroyer.
Good odds! Especcially since only harriers and helicopters can fly from the carrier, and only in small numbers. So is one carrier better than 2 extra frigates, 4 submarines, and 1 destroyer? Well, yes if it was a Nimitz class carrier weighing 100,000 tons. But this is a 16,000 ton carrier, with no fancy tomcats and hornets, just a few harriers. And considering Holland's fleet is a lot more modern than Spain's, I think it's pretty obvious Holland has a stronger navy.
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Giancarlo
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Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark L
Now who's the one not knowing anything about military equipment? Half the Spanish navy is 20 years old and has no ocean going submarines! So outside the coast of Spain the Armada only has 1 very small carrier and 15 frigates, of which most are older than 20 years old.
15 frigates + 1 small carrier VS 17 frigates, 4 submarines, 1 destroyer.
Good odds! Especcially since only harriers and helicopters can fly from the carrier, and only in small numbers. So is one carrier better than 2 extra frigates, 4 submarines, and 1 destroyer? Well, yes if it was a Nimitz class carrier weighing 100,000 tons. But this is a 16,000 ton carrier, with no fancy tomcats and hornets, just a few harriers. And considering Holland's fleet is a lot more modern than Spain's, I think it's pretty obvious Holland has a stronger navy. |
And it is like Hollands miniscule navy can hold of US Perry Class Ships? Those Subs are capable to go out to sea, coastal or not.
We still kick your ass.
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Giancarlo
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Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark L
Which is bigger in size than Spain's  |
Which is not.
quote:
The indefeatable Perry class frigates. Just cause they are American doesn't mean nothing can beat them. And they aren't that special really. Sure they're good, but so are a lot of frigate classes. They don't stand far above others, if at all. |
Traditionally, American Ships are better armed. Hell, they arm those Israelis FACs, which are armed to the teeth.
quote:
If they are, why are they called coastal? Dutch subs are stationed all over the world, and I'm expecting all Spanish subs to be in Spanish territorial waters. Why? Cause they're coastal subs, used along Spanish coasts. Duh. |
So what? We got S-80s coming out soon.
quote:
with what? Only 2 Spanish ships are less than 10 years old, compared to 12 Dutch ships. In short, Spain's navy is antiquated, and certainly no match for a modern navy. |
Wrong, again. There are way more than 2 Ships that are less than ten years old. And late 80s era ships are generally in good condition in most navies. In short, you are ****ed up by calling Spain's navy antiquated when it is not. We have four AEGIS Destroyers on the way (and I heard the Spanish Navy has considered four more), so you are quite screwed.
As for the Airforce, we beat you. We got about 95 F-18 Hornets, 66 Mirage F1s (Which are really good French Aircraft), and 87 Typhoons on order. Our Army beats you three to one.
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Saint Marcus
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Scio Me Nihil Scire
Jan 1970
time: 06:16
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It's the same size, so if Holland's is small, than so is Spain's
quote:
Traditionally, American Ships are better armed. |
Yes, tradtionally. Back in WW2.
Though American carriers kick ass nowadays, but the rest of their ships aren't vastly superior to ships designed by other countries.
quote:
We got S-80s coming out soon. |
Yes. In 2005. And only 1, the rest will come after that. So for the next 4 years Spain is stuck with some small coastal subs
quote:
Wrong, again. There are way more than 2 Ships that are less than ten years old. |
Check your own sites. Only 2 Perry class ships are build after 1991, the rest is older. So the Spanish navy only has 2 combat ships less than 10 years old.
quote:
We have four AEGIS Destroyers on the way (and I heard the Spanish Navy has considered four more), so you are quite screwed. |
De Seven Provincien Class is without any doubt just as capable as Spain's Alvaro de Bazan class. So still Spain doesn't get an edge over Holland navy wise.
quote:
We got about 95 F-18 Hornets |
We got 129 F-16 Falcons. Not that big a difference.
quote:
66 Mirage F1s (Which are really good French Aircraft) |
The Mirage F1 huh? wow. A plane designed in 1966. A plane made obsolete by the Mirage 2000 and the Rafale. Wow.
You say you know more about military equipment than me, yet you say: Coastal subs aren't coastal. More than 2 Spanish warships are younger than 10 years old. The F1 is a really good aircraft.
while militaty experts say: Coastal subs are made for coastal ops. Spain has only 2 warships less than 10 years old. The F1 is outdated.
Who is right? Giani, or the experts from the very sites giani posts?
quote:
and 87 Typhoons on order |
So? They aren't there yet, and Holland will order the JSF.
quote:
Our Army beats you three to one. |
Duh. Spain is a lot bigger than Holland! I would be surprised if Spain managed to have a smaller army. lol
quote:
You'd both lose if you went to war. |
 There won't be a war ever. The war has already been fought and won. Spain admitted defeat in 1648, which was the end of the only war between Holland and Spain which lasted for 80 years (1568 to 1648). Holland won! There giani! We defeated Spain! Ha!
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Saint Marcus
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Scio Me Nihil Scire
Jan 1970
time: 06:16
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quote:
The only reason Spain lost against Holland is because of Britain. |
Funny, since the only country aiding Holland was Pruisia, and they did get their asses kicked by the Spanish. Britain certainly wasn't a Dutch ally, and had more to worry about than affairs in Holland. We kicked your ass!
quote:
Hey, Marky, I hate to break this to you but the first flight of the Mirage F1 is 1981. Maybe it was designed in 1966, but so was the F-16. |
From your own link: "The Mirage F-1 prototype made its maiden flight with René Bigand at the controls, 23rd December 1966, at Melun-Villaroche (the Seine-et-Marne region of France). Commissioned by the French Air Force in 1973, more than 700 Mirage F-1's have been sold to some 11 countries. The Dassault Mirage F-1C was the standard French fighter before Mirage 2000 entered service in the air force in 1984. "
Read kiddo. It says: F1, first flight: 1966, commissioned: 1973. The Mirage 2000 entered service in 1984, 11 years after the F1.
You clearly understand jack about military equipment! Your own link even speaks against you! LOL
quote:
The Library of Congress said the Spanish Navy is the second largest in total size in Europe, after Britain. |
Oh really? More of your facts? Care to do the maths? Let me take you through it, so that even you would understand.
France: 55 warships
Carriers: 1
Cruisers: 1
Destroyers: 4
Frigates: 29
Corvettes: 10
Nuclear subs: 10
Britain: 51 warships
VSTOL Carriers: 3
Destroyers: 11
Frigates: 21
Nuclear subs: 16
Italy: 37 warships
VSTOL Carriers: 1
Cruisers: 1
Destroyers: 4
Frigates: 16
Corvettes: 8
Coastal subs: 7
Greece: 27 warships
Destroyers: 4
Frigates: 14
Coastal subs: 9
Germany: 26 warships
Destroyers: 2
Frigates: 12
Coastal subs: 12
Spain: 24 warships
VSTOL Carriers: 1
Frigates: 15
Coastal subs: 8
Netherlands: 20 warships
Destroyers: 1
Frigates: 15
Submarines: 4
So why is Spain the second biggest? France and Italy clearly have much larger navies. And Spain doesn't seem much/any stronger/bigger than Greece, Germany or Holland.
Some years ago the Dutch Royal Navy and the British Royal Navy had a mock battle in the North Sea. We lost of course. So how about a mock battle somewhere in the Atlantic?
Holland:
1 Destroyer
15 Frigates
4 Submarines
Spain:
1 VSTOL Carrier
15 Frigates
Germany:
2 Destroyers
12 Frigates
Greece:
4 Destroyers
14 Frigates
If you want we can include Italy and France, since according to you their navies are smaller than Spain's. If you just look at it stats wise the Greeks have the upper hand. But Greece' navy, like Spain's, is old and antiquated. Germany's navy is somewhat more modern, but most of their new ship designs are not in service yet (and therefor not included here). Holland does have a more modern navy, and it posseses 4 ocean going subs that the others don't have (yet). All have 12 frigates. On top of that, Holland has: 1 destroyer, 3 frigates, 4 submarines. Germany has 2 destroyers. Greece has 4 destroyeres, 2 frigates. Spain has 1 small carrier, 3 frigates.
I frankly don't see how Spain could beat Holland in a bluewater mock battle. And I certainly don't see how on Earth Spain can have a bigger navy than France. That's clearly bullshit. France' carrier carries Rafales instead of Harriers, and it's twice as big. Furthermore, France has 4 destroyers, 1 cruiser and twice as many frigates as spain. Not to mention the fact that France has 10 nuclear subs while Spain only has 8 small coastal subs.
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04-12-2001 19:26
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