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Stefu
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CLOWNS WIT DA DOWNS 4 LIFE YO!
Jan 1970
time: 07:16
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quote:
RACISM and xenophobia would become serious crimes in Britain for the first time, carrying a prison sentence of two years or more, under new proposals put forward by Brussels yesterday.
Holocaust denial or "trivialisation" of Nazi atrocities would be banned, along with and participation in any group that promotes race hate.
The plans, drafted by the European Commission, define racism and xenophobia as aversion to individuals based on "race, colour, descent, religion or belief, national or ethnic origin".
Ordinary crimes would carry heavier penalities if they are motivated in any way by racism or xenophobia, or if the culprit is carrying out "professional activity", such as a police officer. Some of the crimes listed are, broadly speaking, offences under British law already, such as public incitement to violence.
But the list also a covers a wide range of activities that sometimes fall into the sphere of protected political speech, such as "public insults" of minority groups, "public condoning of war crimes", and "public dissemination of tracts, pictures, or other material containing expressions of racism of xenophobia" - including material posted on far-Right internet websites.
It was not clear yesterday how the law would affect radical Islamic groups that openly promote anti-Semitic and anti-Christian views.
Nor was it clear how it would apply to political parties opposed to mass immigration, such as Austria's Freedom Party, Belgium's Vlaams Blok, and the Danish People's Party, all of which have become serious political forces.
The law could potentially cover many stand-up comedians, and even Anne Robinson, who, during an appearance on BBC television this year, described the Welsh as "irritating".
The proposals, which will require the unanimous backing of all 15 states, are aimed at ending the patchwork of different laws across the European Union and establishing a common definition that can be used by all judges. The commission appears to have adopted the most restrictive code - Germany's - as the basis for the rest of the EU.
Leonello Gabrici, the Commission's judicial spokesman, denied that there was any intention of curbing political expression. "This totally respects free speech. It will be up to judges to decide where the balance lies" he said.
The United Kingdom Independence Party said yesterday that it could be targeted by the new rules, noting that the Oxford English Dictionary definition of xenophobia is "a morbid fear of foreigners or foreign countries".
Nigel Farage MEP, the party's chairman, said: "I'm morbidly xenophobic about this new country called the European Union, so if that is covered by this law then I'm most certainly xenophobic and I could be extradited anywhere. So I'm going to make sure my overnight bag is packed and ready." |
Ho-hay! Free speech goes whoppsy-daisey! Maybe it's just being exposed to Internet, but I still have some faith in marketplace of ideas and all that. Direct calls for violence are one thing, and should be criminal, but Holocaust denial or opposition to immigration (wrongful beliefs that they are) are wholly another thing. And while racist speech and Holocaust denial are repugnant beliefs, it really doesn't sound very intelligent to make these groups martyrs, does it? And this sounds like it has endless potentials for misuse - as noted in the article.
The European state. The idea just keeps sounding lovelier and lovelier. 
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Bereta_Eder
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Some people are starting to get holier than thou in Europe.
Germany had a reason to have such strict laws.
Anyway if you read behind the surface:
1. it will be difficult to pass this through the council of ministers of the 15 member states.
2. if it does pass, under which form will it be adopted to the national law of the member states? will it be a direct adoption? very doubt full. It will propably depend on the national states to implement its basic ideals as they see fit
3. the cases will be trialed in national courts. Not the european court of justice. (there is no such provision - and the european court of human rights has no real power of enforcing anything). This leaves even more prerogative to the states...
anyway, bad law. Doesn't the US also have such laws that treat race crimes (or hate crimes - don't remember the exact term) differently?
Last edited by Bereta_Eder on 04-12-2001 at 01:55
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Bereta_Eder
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quote:
Originally posted by Sprayber
This will only promote hatred and give them a reason to hate foreigners more.
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I completely agree.
I don't think it will last long or have any effect on countries it doesn't fit to.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
You have not run into to any of the Flat-Eathers recently? |
Okay, maybe not the stupidest, but its up there...
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PaulT
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bloody hell I can't believe that law!!
The thing is, us EU "citizens" have no say! The bill is devised by the un-elected council.
First what I call the "enabling act" in Britain (actuallly the Internment without trial terrorism bill) and now this.
So soon you could be interned without trial for speaking out against other European states! YEAH!
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Stefu
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CLOWNS WIT DA DOWNS 4 LIFE YO!
Jan 1970
time: 07:16
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paiktis, what I see as the most distressing is that even if this doesn't go through, it still might be shade of things to come in brand spankin' new unified Europe. Only way to do something like that would be US-style loose federation, IMHO.
quote:
1. it will be difficult to pass this through the council of ministers of the 15 member states. |
Well, this would at least get the support of two of big three (France and Germany) and quite a lot follows from France and Germany. Then there are countries ruled by Social Democrats or other such prties, which, IIRC, still make up the majority of European countries. (Mmm, are the new governments up already in Norway and Denmark? I'm not sure.)
quote:
2. if it does pass, under which form will it be adopted to the national law of the member states? will it be a direct adoption? very doubt full. It will propably depend on the national states to implement its basic ideals as they see fit |
Well, even the basic ideals aren't all that hot - lose of free speech and all that - and compromise implementation wouldn't be that hot an idea, either. And if you don't comply, you're a big mean racist and we won't play with you. 
quote:
3. the cases will be trialed in national courts. Not the european court of justice. (there is no such provision - and the european court of human rights has no real power of enforcing anything). This leaves even more prerogative to the states... |
They still couldn't go *too* far from the basic ideals of the legislation.
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Stefu
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CLOWNS WIT DA DOWNS 4 LIFE YO!
Jan 1970
time: 07:16
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quote:
A. What would happen if you'd start a pro Bin Laden protest in Washington? Either the cops shut you up, or the people will.
B. What about all the anti-terrorist laws that you guys have in the USA, but not here in Europe, that restrict freedom? |
Did you happen to notice the nationality of the thread-starter?
But of course, I'm a honorary American, as the honor was given to me during US election. Yippe-kay-ay, let's go bar-b-que dem dar Euroweenies!
quote:
C. This is nothing new. Here in Holland a party was outlawed because it was pro-Nazi and anti-foreigners. |
And we all should follow Holland's example?
What did this party advocate? Did it advocate violence? What does 'Pro-Nazi' and 'anti-foreigners' mean?
quote:
D. Most importantly: It will never pass It's just one of those thought-bubbles some people put up. |
The plans, drafted by the European Commission, define racism and xenophobia as aversion to individuals based on "race, colour, descent, religion or belief, national or ethnic origin".
Let's hope there are no further similar thought-bubbles floating out of European Commission.
...
Then again, no fear of that happening. 
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Saint Marcus
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Scio Me Nihil Scire
Jan 1970
time: 06:16
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quote:
Did you happen to notice the nationality of the thread-starter? |
Does it matter? I was more refering to the many Americans who post here, though in general I was trying to make a point that things in Europe aren't much worse or better than in other western regions.
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And we all should follow Holland's example? |
You already do. Poldermodel, legalising drugs, legalising prostitution, legalising euthanasia, etc. Plus read my comment below. This legaslation is nothing new.
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What did this party advocate? Did it advocate violence? What does 'Pro-Nazi' and 'anti-foreigners' mean? |
Holding Neo-Nazi meetings, complete with copies of Mein Kampf and Swatstikas on the wall. Denial of the holocaust in their leaflets. Open worship of Hitler by the leadership of the party. etc. That's against the constitution in Holland. I believe it's the same in Germany, and probably other European countries as well. I think the EU, if this passes, wants to use that law for the rest of Europe too. It's certainly nothing new.
quote:
The plans, drafted by the European Commission, define racism and xenophobia as aversion to individuals based on "race, colour, descent, religion or belief, national or ethnic origin". |
Do you have any idea what a shitload of plans to EC publishes every months?
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Saint Marcus
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Scio Me Nihil Scire
Jan 1970
time: 06:16
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quote:
Not me, man. My folks are from Germany, Russia, and Britain. |
And in what continent do those countries lie? 
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Not Really, we are made up of immigrants from around the entire world, not just Europe..... |
Mostly Europe. Not even Americans deny that 
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The same thing that would happen if you'd start a KKK march. You'd be allowed to. |
I believe a lot of Americans were against the KKK march.
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Not in Europe? I defy you to spot in significant difference between the Patriot Act and the Prevention of Terrorism Act. |
How many people are held in custody without proper reasons? None/very few. Also, there is no terrorism act here in Holland, or in most European nations. Britain does have one though.
quote:
This makes it right? |
right? that's not the issue. It's just that this is nothing new. People are making a big deal out of something that has been around since the end of the world war. Laws restricting pro-Nazi sentiments are in effect in Holland, Germany and France for decades. All this is nothing new. So why the fuss now?
quote:
And this makes the proposal any less worthy of condemnation and opposition because of what exactly? |
Like I said, the laws have already been in place for decades. The only difference is that the EU perhaps will enforce these laws too, instead of leaving it up to the individual nations. But since already most of the European citizens live under these laws it's nothing special. Only for a country like Britain, that doesn't have these laws, it's suddenly a big deal. But the real issue isn't the proposed law, since that's nothing new, but the fact that Europe will decide what Britain's citizens can and cannot do. That's the main issue here.
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04-12-2001 01:29
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