06-12-2001 10:01									#1
	Rate the patch! Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

While I'm impressed with the detail of the improvements included in the patch, I am severely disappointed that one critical point remains unaddressed-- the inability to specify a player starting location in the map editor.

Also, I would like to know the necessity of having up to 512 cities when the city lists for each civilization have not yet been expanded? Does one have to continue to be exposed to viewing cities named "New Paris" and "New New Orleans" all over the map?

I am assuming that the ability to specify player starting locations is a bit more complicated now after the game has been released. However, I think that this is a major blunder (that I'm hoping the developers now regret). On the other hand, the expansion of city lists does not seem to be too difficult a task and yet it was not addressed either.

	06-12-2001 10:12									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Where's the 'How can I rate the patch when I haven't installed it yet' option?

There's too much vagueness in the readme to be able to make a real assessment now.

V

	06-12-2001 10:26									#3
	Full PM-box? Change here!

LOL

I don't have a patch to rate. I'll come back next week.

	06-12-2001 10:35									#4
	Get a bigger avatar today!

"silly poll"

a comment from a smelly troll

	06-12-2001 10:49									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick "silly poll" a comment from a smelly troll

true, but we do know what's NOT in it.

The editor is still very weak - can't add new items
Starting positions for scenarios are still not possible
Still can't move units as a stack
Diplomacy screen is still crap if you play more than 8 opponents



While I appreciate the bug fixes, there are still some significant issues that remain unaddressed.

	06-12-2001 10:55									#6
	Re: Rate the patch! Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by siredgar Also, I would like to know the necessity of having up to 512 cities when the city lists for each civilization have not yet been expanded? Does one have to continue to be exposed to viewing cities named "New Paris" and "New New Orleans" all over the map?

Which would you prefer, the amount of cities the game can handle expanded to 512, and being "exposed to viewing cities named "New Paris" ", or to have the game crash every time any civ builds their 15th city?? Exactly.

Would you prefer Firaxis to change a hard-coded variable inside the game engine which only a few people would be able to do, or expand the list of city names which everyone and their dog has the ability to do??

What a waste of a complaint

	06-12-2001 10:59									#7
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

[shameless plug]

More City Names

[/shameless plug]

-Sev

	06-12-2001 11:00									#8
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Actually I've been wondering about this for a while... Maybe just because it's not my gamestyle but I do not understand why people want so many cities? Surely it's just going to be a nightmare to micromanage? Or is there some 'size' inferiority thing ...

V

	06-12-2001 11:09									#9
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Sevorak [shameless plug] More City Names [/shameless plug] -Sev

Excellent!!!

I've been complaining about this for a while now.

TWO QUESTIONS:
1. "Should I download this after the patch or can I do it now?"

and

2. "Did this correct 'Marseilles' to 'Marseille'???"

Also, in response to Skanky, I wasn't arguing that the city lists were important, but rather trying to demonstrate the lack of attention to easy-to-fix details such as this one. I'm not even sure the city lists were really updated much, if at all, from Civ II (besides adding lists for Iroquois and Persians).

	06-12-2001 11:12									#10
	Support Apolyton

As far as I know they are working on the map editor separately but it will be available before X-Mas.

	06-12-2001 11:19									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

By the way, my dog can't play Civ III!

	06-12-2001 11:21									#12
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I'll probably fix it up again for the patch, if the extra city names cause the entire .bic to use the old statistics for submarines and paratroops and whatnot.

Read the post, it corrects both Marseille and Lyon

-Sev

	06-12-2001 11:24									#13
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by siredgar Also, in response to Skanky, I wasn't arguing that the city lists were important, but rather trying to demonstrate the lack of attention to easy-to-fix details such as this one. I'm not even sure the city lists were really updated much, if at all, from Civ II (besides adding lists for Iroquois and Persians).

Thats probably true (except for it being easy) but i doubt that this would be high up on Firaxis' list of things to do.
Probably the best way to get a much larger city-name list would be through a community effort by posting a "Add a [civ] City Name" thread somewhere, and compiling all the new names, and finally adding them to the file that Civ 3 uses. I havent had a look at the file yet, but its probably pure text, so very easy to add entries to.

A bonus to this approach is that if you dont want Marseille with an extra 's', then it wont have it. Just something to consider.

PS: Sorry about my flame before, i think i got just a little bit carried away

	06-12-2001 11:29									#14
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by siredgar By the way, my dog can't play Civ III!

After a few weeks of training, my dog can draw maps, plot cities in their exact positions, and add all their names to text files with one leg tied behind his.. erm..

	06-12-2001 11:59									#15
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Also, the patch doesn't have anything to alter the AI trading system (getting more 1-for-1 trades). But then I read somewhere that the developers didn't think this was a "problem".

Hey, Skanky, can I borrow that dog for a few weeks?

	06-12-2001 18:25									#16
	Re: Rate the patch! Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by siredgar Also, I would like to know the necessity of having up to 512 cities when the city lists for each civilization have not yet been expanded? Does one have to continue to be exposed to viewing cities named "New Paris" and "New New Orleans" all over the map?

OMG, what a useless rant. this is like the time somebody came to the civ2 forum and asked if there was a city names list he could download somewhere. I say the same thing to you:
Get an atlas and start typing, it's not that hard.

as for the patch:
I am glad for all the gameplay issues and bugs it addresses. strangely, I had encountered most of these bugs and just went on playing.

but the editor still lacking some basics keeps this patch from being the greatest. hope whoever said so is serious about them working on the editor.

	07-12-2001 10:33									#17
	Inflate your Upload Space

Again, the point is is that the attention to details was not there and still isn't there.

The patch has a lot of good fixes, but it just doesn't address some key issues such as the ability to specify player starting locations, AI trading, and stacked moves.

	07-12-2001 11:49									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by siredgar Hey, Skanky, can I borrow that dog for a few weeks?

It will cost you 20 gold per turn...

quote: Originally posted by Father Beast OMG, what a useless rant...

Hey!! I was already flaming him for that remark!!
Step in line, and wait until I have finished.

	09-12-2001 00:57									#19
	Has anyone played a full version with the new patch yet? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I'm already getting crashes and lags.

	09-12-2001 04:14									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I give the patch an "Excellent" simply because they fixed the problem with the AI patrolling. Even holding down shift, it got really boring watching the AI move 30 cavalry around in a circle.

	09-12-2001 06:06									#21
	Re: Re: Rate the patch! Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Father Beast OMG, what a useless rant. this is like the time somebody came to the civ2 forum and asked if there was a city names list he could download somewhere. I say the same thing to you: Get an atlas and start typing, it's not that hard.

There's a reason we paid $50 for the game. We shouldn't need to do any typing for it to work properly. And what about the ancient civs? Your atlas cover Babylon?

	09-12-2001 09:08									#22
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by siredgar Also, the patch doesn't have anything to alter the AI trading system (getting more 1-for-1 trades). But then I read somewhere that the developers didn't think this was a "problem".

You are trying to trade a tech from the AI by choosing it and asking 'What may I trade you for ?' This usually results in a silly offer, 2 techs + something.

Instead ask what the AI would like to offer for and you usually get 2 techs for 1 (if it's good enough) or one plus other useful stuff (like lots of gold per turn). Try to find the 'cheapest' way of gaining what ever it is you want. If you have a trade agreement, try renegotiating it (or cancel and try to get AI to pay again).

If you're saying that not even the AI should trade you more for your resource/tech, just take them out and not 'abuse' the AI's stupidity

	11-12-2001 00:14									#23
	Results from finishing a game. Remove this text

I played a saved game with the new patch and here are the results:

1. Various animation bugs.

ex) The ships do not have any sound until the last space moved.

2. Advisor screens, especially diplomacy and science ones, do not fully work.

ex) No arrows in science advisor screen, but more importantly, at some point, all of the diplomacy lines (peace, war, mutual protection pact, etc) disappear.

3. Odd: I found Chinese workers and French longbowman in my cities.

4. The mech infantry in my cities would attack and kill any of my other units trying to pass through. A couple of times, I found a a sneaky Chinese unit in there. Any connection?

5. The ending with all of the quotes from the defeated leaders has bugs.

ex) My character (winner), Elizabeth, and Gandhi (eliminated) did not show up to say anything.

6. I have noticed that after the first test, the lag has nearly disappeared and there are fewer crashes. Hurray!

7. AI patrolling seems to have been thrown out. Yes!

8. The patch adds bonuses to units rather than adjusting them, which is good.

ex) I played a gamed with modified rules and gave the privateers an attack of two. The patch added an attack of one, for a total of three. I recommend giving the privateers an attack of three now, anyhow. This is because they should be able to attack frigates, but not defend very well against them (they still have a defense of only one).

Overall, I give the patch a rating of "excellent" because it fixes essential playability issues (less lag and fewer crashes). Also, it has a lot of great fixes.

However, it still does not add the ability to:

1. Specify player starting location in the map editor.

2. Stack moves.

3. Allow "fairer" trading with AI.

In conclusion, this first patch lets me enjoy the game for now, but I can't wait for the second patch to take it further (esp. for customization).

Last edited by siredgar on 11-12-2001 at 00:21