07-12-2001 15:41									#32
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Bury one's head and reason won't hurt so much.

	07-12-2001 15:44									#33
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Please don't bring jesus into this. He's a good guy, and all, but I think he'd be flipping plenty of tables if he had been a Civ 3 fan.

I don't demand perfection you silly man. I don't demand anything. I do, however, expect some kind of response to these concerns. I can deal with it if they just can't get an editor in the near future, but they should say that and not jerk us around by giving us higher expectations than they can deliver. I ask for better PR and hopefully some fixes to major concerns, but the big thing is better PR. What do you know about scenario-making anyhow? Have you ever played one of mine? You shouldn't butt into conversations if you have nothing to contribute.

	07-12-2001 15:52									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Libertarian Can't wait to see some of the scenarios when you, um, people get everything you want (whatever the hell that is). So I can mercilessly criticize, belittle, and condemn their creators.

Libertarian - If you have civ2 (or FW/MGE particularly) I would encourage you to take a look at some scens on some of the hosted sites to see what some of the designers can do - especially in comparison to the (earlier) official ones released by Microprose. This is largely due to the tremendous amount of time and effort many people spent in working out all of the bugs/quirks and peculiarities involved and then in developing their own.
That is why this is such a big issue for many who create and play them.

	07-12-2001 16:04									#35
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I understand. The key term is "compared to".

This same relativity that is necessary to appreciate the work of the scenario designers is begrudgingly witheld from them toward the game developers. You would think that the scenario community could appreciate the fact that, compared to previous Civs, this one has enormous potential for freelance modeling. But upon the very first release, simply because the game did not perfectly meet their predetermined criteria, they took up arms and fired off some of the nastiest insults and threats at Firaxis developers — people, mind you! — that I've ever seen.

It was then that I determined that they've gotten exactly what they deserve. They are impatient and unforgiving. They have no sense of priority or context. They are so solipsistic that they believe their satisfaction is more important than that of the broader market. And they even decry that most sacred of capitalist attributes — making a profit — as though it were something evil, while not acknowledging that, without a solid profit, there would be no game at all.

I was submarined by their childish reactions. Now, I've become jaded to it. It has become like Yin posts.

	07-12-2001 16:15									#36
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Well despite most of the negative things which have been flung around this board - I would simply like to say Thank you Firaxis for making yet another fun game - DESPITE some flaws which mostly seem to have been addressed by the recent patch.

Yeah, maybe there isn't such a great editor for the game at the moment, but instead of throwing a fit about it I can just wait, as I have faith that soon enough there will be one. And of course [shameless plug] Monk Spiders' Balancer Modification has helped ease the 'pain' of a few of those 'inbalances' which people seem to complain so much about. [/shameless plug]

I can say for sure that I dont feel like I'm being 'stomped on by the man' simply because at the current time there isn't all that great scenaro support. And why I cannot for sure say it is the exact reason none was included, I can certainly say I would understand the need to push the game out and 'deal with the rest later' if a had a publisher getting fussy because the project was taking a little too long.

I could be wrong, but thanks again Firaxis!

	07-12-2001 16:24									#37
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I don't condone any form of insult/abuse whatsoever but if you look I think you'll find that very little actually came from the "scenario community".
The game was advertised as having "scenario capability" and was (I believe as I don't have it - waiting for "scenario capibility" ) released with the same advertisment on the box itself.
This along with the supposed dozen scenarios released with the LE that weren't and little info regarding future editting capabilities have frustrated people to the point of becoming just as jaded as you say you've become.
Hence Hoek's "slightly impolite" title to get some attention on the matter.

And I think bringing the infamous "Yin posts" into it is hitting below the belt.

	07-12-2001 16:33									#38
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You've become jaded after one month? After all, isn't that how long you've been at Apolyton? That's a laugh. So I should applaud Firaxis for producing an inadequate game and then failing to address the concern of loyal customers because they suddenly decided that their main concern was to make money and not produce quality games or even defend them? Microprose made solid profits for 5 years off of Civ 2, but it is doubtful that Firaxis or Microprose will make that kind of long-term profit on Civ 3. It is a company's job to ensure that customers are happy with them and their product or service. Many of us are understandably unhappy and if you are so jaded, why would you even bother posting here? Stick to talking about how cool unit animations are if you fail to understand the dynamic here. Except for you, everyone else who has posted here has had something substantive to say.

Chiang: I don't feel stomped on by the man, I just feel that Firaxis and Infogrames are making big mistakes by failing to address major concerns from loyal customers. The fact is that we don't know if they are going to deal with the rest later since they won't tell us. We don't know if a multiplayer version will come out. We don't know if scenario-making will be possible. Firaxis has failed to give us any kind of an idea as to what we can expect. Dan shouldn't have assumed that I wanted a timetable and a list of scenario-making features in the works. All I was asking for was some kind of idea of what I can expect. If I am twiddling my thumbs for scenario-making capabilities, and Firaxis has no plans to do that right now, they should just tell us. It's just good business.

	07-12-2001 17:18									#39
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Well come on now Hoek, If you were to develop a game and were forced to push it out ahead of what you planned, therefore cutting out features that the masses would have enjoyed for the sake of getting your game out or not getting it out at all, would you not make these cuts? I also *do* agree that perhaps a general idea would be nice from Firaxis. "Yes we will be making it possible for you to make scenario, but we don't know exactly when." Or even the same for multiplayer. So please dont think I fail to see what you mean.

But you also have to look at it like this, very few people at this point know exactly what is going to happen and when it will come around. Just because someone is employed by Firaxis does not mean they know every little detail, Hence I would think the reluctance to spout out information to 'calm the masses' only to have the 'devine plan' change and then have even MORE ticked off people.

The simple fact is not EVERYONE will be happy, it's impossible to do such a feat, all you can do is hope that the features you want will be added with a later patch to the game. I myself think that the ability to create scenario isn't all that far off, really all you need is a better editor correct?

Firaxis released an' editor with the game, and really it did leave a not complete feeling, perhaps affirming my view that Infogrames pressured them into pushing the game out early, and yes my friend - Dollar amounts is what the world comes to, and getting your product out before the other guy plays a big part in it, sadly often leaving games which are great to some and barely playable to others until several patches down the road.

One more thing, I'm sure they'll release information once they are sure things are set in stone, demanding information from them under the pretext that they are 'cheating loyal customers' isn't really all that great. Once again don't misunderstand, Scenario are great - I enjoyed many for civ2 and alot of people really invest alot of time into them. Not all games are instant hits, so give them a little (more) slack huh? They have not left us out in the cold. (If Infogrames and Firaxis drop all support then yeah, it's time to riot in the streets.*)

Chaing

	07-12-2001 17:23									#40
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quote: Originally posted by ChaingKaiShek I also *do* agree that perhaps a general idea would be nice from Firaxis. "Yes we will be making it possible for you to make scenario, but we don't know exactly when." Or even the same for multiplayer.

and how exactly is that different from Firaxis has been saying(and Dan repeated on this thread)?

	07-12-2001 17:29									#41
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I don't recall ever claiming to know what Firaxis has said except what I've looked across while reading other posts. I'm not an authority on the subject - infact I had very little interest until I had purchased the game and started playing it.

So sorry if I'm just repeating comments, I'll keep my mouth shut on the matter from now on.

	07-12-2001 17:37									#42
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quote: Why? Because we really *are* concerned with modding and scenario editing, but we're just not able to tell you what our future plans are yet.

That is ALL Dan said about this in this thread, Mark. That is a very vague reply to a legitimate concern. We still don't know if we ever will be able to place a city or units. Dan and the rest of FIRAXIS should make an effort to give us some concrete ideas about what to expect. It would be good to know whether or not they have begun working on a true scenario editor or whether they really plan on releasing an MP version...rather than vague statements saying they "are exploring cool options" with MP and scenario making.

	07-12-2001 18:03									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Hoek That is ALL Dan said about this in this thread, Mark. That is a very vague reply to a legitimate concern. We still don't know if we ever will be able to place a city or units. Dan and the rest of FIRAXIS should make an effort to give us some concrete ideas about what to expect. It would be good to know whether or not they have begun working on a true scenario editor or whether they really plan on releasing an MP version...rather than vague statements saying they "are exploring cool options" with MP and scenario making.

Well, there is this message in the "That does it ! I'm outta here !" started by Locutus.

quote: Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS Sorry to hear that. I was really looking forward to seeing what you could do with Civ III scenarios when the tools get up to snuff. Dan

I hope that it means what I want it to means
I suppose we'll have to wait and see...

	07-12-2001 18:13									#44
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well that's a bit more specific, I suppose. I still fail to see the need to be less than forthcoming with information with the community.

	07-12-2001 18:19									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Hoek That is ALL Dan said about this in this thread, Mark.

well hoek, since you want it over-analyzed, what other improvements could he mean other than the following (basic) things: the ability to add units,techs, etc, starting locations, cut/copy/paste enabled in the map editor, ability to place units, cities, etc etc etc

	07-12-2001 18:24									#46
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I have no clue since prior to release, Civ 3 was still being advertised as having scenario-making capabilities. I don't know what their definition of scenario tools is.

BTW: You left out events

	07-12-2001 18:25									#47
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Guys, just chill a little.

The exact way to get peoples' backs' up and doing exactly nothing in response to (some legitimate) complaints, is to get all arsey, with vitriolic and emotional expressions like "spitting in out faces".

Dan has clearly demonstrated, simply by appearing on this message board, that he does care about the fan-base, and is listening to us.

Software development is not an easy thing - balancing the often conflicting requirements of an audience with the on-time, bug-free, feature-full implementation takes time and is rarely correct on the first iteration. I know, 'cos it's my day job. The fact that Firaxis are following the threads on these boards indicates that they are using our *constructive*feedback to smooth-out the next iteration of what they sincerely hope heads toward perfection.

Why? Because they *care*, not just about us, but in their own creation. If you kiddies had bothered to do a decent day's work in your life and actually produce something, you might actually realise that there comes a thing called *pride* in what you made. I know that if I'd worked on the CivIII team, I'd feel pretty proud of what I'd help to achieve, but would not feel satisfied until I'd made the product as perfect as possible.

I'm not saying to go and lick Firaxis' collectively hairy crevice, but what I *am* saying is if you want to get any results and help in this process, you should make your criticisms CONSTRUCTIVE, and keep out the emotive and personal language. The latter attitude smacks of gross immaturity, and just downright stupidity, as it makes you look like the inarticulated dumb-asses that you are.

There is a time for mouthing off and having a go - that's when you are down the pub tanked up with ten pints - IT AIN'T IN THIS FORUM!

	07-12-2001 18:29									#48
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If that's what he meant, he should have said it. Instead of being cagey about it, what's wrong with telling us? He says it creates too many expectations. I say that's incorrect. If we are told what we should expect, that is what we will expect. If Jeff Briggs talks about cool scenario-making capabilities and if Jeff Morris talks about recruiting the input of the scenario-making community, doesn't the vagueness there create more expectations? If we were given some more concrete ideas about what plans were, we wouldn't be nearly half as upset. I really fail to see how being more specific will make expectations increase.

	07-12-2001 18:38									#49
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Well thank you, sir, for patronizing me, sir. Don't lecture me in taking pride in what I do.

Why did I use a provacative heading like that? Because I've had constructive criticism in the past. Many of us have. But unfortunately, many of us (particularly in the scenario community) have seemingly been ignored. I wanted to get a Firaxis guy to read what I had to say because it is important to know that loyal fans are getting disgruntled (I've been here sice '69, dagnabbit . If these guys are as concerned as they say they are, it wouldn't have taken a title like "why do you spit in our faces" to get Dan to answer a question. My constructive criticism is that they are losing their fan base. Before long, these forums may not have any more deities or emporers...only warlords and chieftans and settlers. I have supported Firaxis and enjoyed their products in the past, but I am disappointed in where the company is headed. Many of you newbies don't realize how many hours some of us vets have put into this series. If Firaxis wants to keep their fan base, they're going to have to do alot to rally the troops.

	07-12-2001 18:49									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Hoek I don't know what their definition of scenario tools is.

come on hoek, i'm sure you and everyone else have a pretty good idea what "scenario making tools" means....

	07-12-2001 18:53									#51
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

then why the heck won't he be more definitive about it?

BTW: this is taking up valuable forum space...ICQ me

	07-12-2001 18:54									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Hoek I really fail to see how being more specific will make expectations increase.

example: jeff morris said he would post the patch list on wednesday, and people were asking about it on wednsday 2:00am.... in the australian time zone!

	07-12-2001 19:01									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Hoek Well thank you, sir, for patronizing me, sir. Don't lecture me in taking pride in what I do.

Apologies if any patronisation was made, and apologies for inferring you were some skr1pt k1dd13, but when you use emotive language like the title of this thread, you are opening yourself up to flaming and criticism of the variety made by myself.

quote: Originally posted by Hoek Why did I use a provacative heading like that? Because I've had constructive criticism in the past. Many of us have. But unfortunately, many of us (particularly in the scenario community) have seemingly been ignored. I wanted to get a Firaxis guy to read what I had to say

Being personal and emotive is not the way to get anything done in this world. Look at Bin Laden and Qaddafi - those guys use emotive language, and what does it achieve for them in terms of progress? Merely entrenches the other side.

Yes I understand your feeling that you've been ignored by Firaxis, and yes, it's probably a shame that they're not taking mods seriously enough, but if you want to do something about it, getting their backs up is exactly NOT the way to do it.

Also FYI, I ain't a newbie, thanx. I've been on this forum for nearly 18 months, but I listen, not talk (hence only the chieftain status), I've played Civ since it's inception in 11 years ago, and have been playing games since '78. So there!

	07-12-2001 19:21									#54
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Hoek,

If I were the CEO of Firaxis, and one of my developers leaked out any part of our work board, other than what I had authorized him to leak, I would fire him. Wouldn't you?

	07-12-2001 19:48									#55
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Slocombe: Okay, you ain't a newbie But if we were going to get combative, I thought I should have my jab too

I don't think this and terrorism are analagous, by the way. Sometimes you do need to hit someone over the head for them to wake up, though.

Libertarian: Why would the CEO want the PR man to keep patch work secret? There is no money to be gained directly by releasing a patch. The idea of a patch is to satisfy fans, so it is in their interest to let fans know what's coming. It wouldn't make sense for the CEO of Firaxis to withhold simple information regarding what they're working on (that's why they had screenshots and such prior to release). This has nothing to do with trying to get developers to leak information against the wishes of his boss. This has to do with Firaxis being a bit more responsive to it's customers.

	07-12-2001 19:53									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Hoek There is no money to be gained directly by releasing a patch.

hmmm so a game is out for 2 months but you check the official site and see that there is no patch for it. what is your conclusion?
a) "the game is perfect, lets run to the closest store!"
b) "the company doesnt care enough to make a patch, get the hell out of here!"

	07-12-2001 20:00									#57
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Hoek,

Certain considerations apply. The universe is an electromagnetic suspension in a gravity field. A person cannot therefore do two things at once. Nor can he be in two places at the same time. If Firaxis is like any other development house (except Microsoft), it does not have the resources to spare so that its developers may address questions at a 1000:1 ratio of questioners to answerers.

There is evidence that even the plainest answer (plainness being completely subjective) wouldn't satisfy you, since the answer given has already been pointed out and explained. To a fare-thee-well. Did this satisfy you? No. Now that your question was answered, a new question emerges: 'okay, so if that's what they meant, why didn't they put it exactly that way?'.

How much attention would you pay to someone who was badgering you about a question you'd already answered? I think Firaxis does a fine job with PR. As CEO, I would release only enough information as to augment sales, and not a drop more.

(edited for clarity)

	07-12-2001 20:04									#58
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No, especially not with a game like civ. I, however, don't particularly want to spend 50 bucks if there isn't going to end up being a patch (and not some later in box version that I would go out and have to buy also). All I'm saying here is that clarity makes everyone's day go by smoother. Ambiguity leads to confusion and frustration.

	07-12-2001 20:07									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Hoek Libertarian: Why would the CEO want the PR man to keep patch work secret? There is no money to be gained directly by releasing a patch. The idea of a patch is to satisfy fans, so it is in their interest to let fans know what's coming.

You score a point, patches are for fans (for selling more copies to more fans).
But why do you think scenario capabilities will be in a patch??
Mahaga DID NOT SAY patch...
They will be in a nice expansion pack!
And that's why they are keeping the silence... would you keep buying the game as it is now if you'd know that a Scenario version/expansion is coming out in some months?
They "care" about us as much as tobacco firms care about their market target

Markos: IMHO you are always too cheery with developers... is everything always OK for you? I do not remember you ignore or criticize ANY civ game... not even Ctp. Maybe that's just because I only surf the forum occasionally.

	07-12-2001 20:12									#60
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To say that I am badgering them is a gross overstatement. Judging from how long you have been at this site, it seems you may not understand all the dynamics of this community. I have asked quite innocent questions in quite unthreatening manners in the past and have been ignored by Firaxis (as have everyone else who asked about multiplayer or scenario-making or a number of other big-ticket items) or have been answered in extremely ambiguous ways. You are exactly right that Firaxis can't do a million things at once, which is exactly why they should focus on what is most important to fix. The very fact that you have a large number of long-term fans in considerable consternation points to a major failure of the PR department.

I still don't see how angry customers is a good business move.