07-12-2001 11:49									#1
	[edit]Firaxis: we need a morale boost Get a bigger avatar today!

Firaxis, why is it that you make various vague promises of improved scenario-making capabilities (or rather, ANY scenario-making capabilities) but then give us no idea of when or whether we should in fact expect you to fix this. You just released a patch today that addresses some quite minor problems in the face of key missing elements. You only frustrate customers and loyal fans (anyone who spents hours making scenarios is clearly a dedicated and loyal fan) who have sustained the popularity of Civ 2 over the past 5 years. By continuously ignoring questions about when we will be able to make scenarios, you really make guys like me bitter. It is very insulting to see you answer questions about coastal fortresses from newbies but ignore people who have been integral parts of the civ community for many years asking when you will let us make scenarios for your game. Please don't make me bitter towards your company, because I have long enjoyed your work. But your failure to address the valid concerns of the scenario-making community is extremely frustrating. Throw us a bone, here.

Last edited by Hoek on 07-12-2001 at 22:09

	07-12-2001 12:30									#2
	Remove this text

because the can.

because they want to make more money off you when they finally release a scenario disk

because they want to make money off you when they release multiplayer

because they want to milk even more money off you when they release even more scenario features

pick which one you like the most

	07-12-2001 12:36									#3
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

My point is that this negligent behavior is uncharacteristic of the boys at Firaxis. They generally have produced good products (ones they were willing to see suceed rather than ones that would make them a few quick bucks) and have invested the time and resources to curry the favor of a large cadre of long-term fans like myself. So far, they and Infogrames have come off as greedy and unconcerned with the concerns of fans. Perhaps they do want to see their long-term fans replaced by a bunch of newcomers who will just jump to the next flashy game that comes out instead of sticking with this one, but it doesn't seem characteristic. I hope they prove me wrong.

	07-12-2001 12:45									#4
	Tired of ads?

I have a feeling that there may be legal implications involved if they were to respond in the affirmative and were then unable to act accordingly (and the converse applies too).
I share your frustration however. Scenarios of pretty much any kind are impossible at the present and we have had little indication of this situation changing for the better at any time in the near future.
A bitter blow for a game that promised so much ...

	07-12-2001 12:51									#5
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Legal Implications? How about Infogrames promising a "designer's notes" in the Limited Edition but not providing it?

Any legal reason for not doing it is brand new because Firaxis (and Sid Meier before Firaxis) has long been responsive to fan concerns. Now they are really pussyfooting around giving fans any idea of what to expect.

	07-12-2001 12:53									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

How about the truth... that we don't want to fuel already incredibly high expectations by talking about potential future features until we know for sure?

If we were really interested in "spitting in your face", why would I even bother to respond to this thread, especially at 3 AM? Why would we continue to improve the editor in the 1st patch?

Why? Because we really *are* concerned with modding and scenario editing, but we're just not able to tell you what our future plans are yet.

Hey, I know it's hip to be a cynic and bag on the "evil, faceless game company", but come on... we are committed to this game and (believe it or not) to the mod and scenario community.


Dan

	07-12-2001 12:58									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

GO DAN, GO!
(both hands and feet)

[serious]
sometimes hints dont work. clear statements like the one you just made are needed instead...
[/serious]

critical question: should i make this a news item?

	07-12-2001 13:01									#8
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by MarkG GO DAN, GO! (both hands and feet) [serious] sometimes hints dont work. clear statements like the one you just made are needed instead... [/serious] critical question: should i make this a news item?

Are you insane??? you trying to finally get rid of me?


Dan

	07-12-2001 13:07									#9
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS Are you insane??? you trying to finally get rid of me?

imagine the titles


DAN MAGAHA TELLS ALL ABOUT FIRAXIS:
"I COULD TELL YOU THE TRUTH, BUT SID WOULD HAVE ME KILLED!"

	07-12-2001 13:10									#10
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I was thinking something more like, "Magaha opens mouth, inserts foot" or something to that effect.

	07-12-2001 13:12									#11
	Got spare money?

DAN MAGAHA REVEALS THE TEAM'S TRUE FEELINGS:
"NO, WE'RE DEFINATELY NOT SPITING IN YOUR FACES! THAT'S DISGUSTING!!"

	07-12-2001 13:17									#12
	Inflate your Upload Space

this kind of reminds me of people that want to know every single detail about the war in afghanistan. Why is it necessary to know every single action that goes on in a game company.

sometimes I think the only way they will be happy is if you post every action you do on the game in a thread here. And when you get up to use the bathroom, you post that too, so people know why you aren't working on the patch

I really don't care how it gets done, or how much progress is made in 1 or 2 days. I only care about the final product.

I think patience is something they need to teach in schools. Forget math and science. Talk about an instant gratification generation in the western world. Jeez

	07-12-2001 13:22									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS I was thinking something more like, "Magaha opens mouth, inserts foot" or something to that effect.

that would be pretty catchy too!

	07-12-2001 13:32									#14
	A Sad State of Affairs Inflate your Upload Space

Dear Mr. Magaha,

We can imagine that it is easier to complain about a problem, as we do, than to fix it, as we hope Firaxis is in the process of doing. However, there are some issues of concern that have yet to be addressed by you or your company.

CivIII has a rushed feel to it. The documentation and first commercial release (dare I say, final beta) contain numerous quality control issues that suggest the game was in such a rush to go gold, that corners were cut in final production.

There is the annoying issue of the "designers' notes" that were promised with the LE but never delivered.

Infogrames heavy-handed approach with the fan community, as evidenced by their approach to the German translation effort and to
Hurricane gaming's online strategy guide.

These are real issues that have been brought up consistently by many people on these forums, yet never adequately addressed by Firaxis or Infogrames. Is it a surprise that after such silence that people have begun to get surly.

I am beginning to be of the opinion that Firaxis and Infogrames have a set policy to ignore any legitimate complaints in the hopes that the complaints will go away. I believe this is an error. People complain because they care. They will stop complaining when you either address their problems, or they cease to care anymore. When the hardcore fans cease caring, I think that you will find that the Civilization franchise, Firaxis and Infogrames will have lost a very valuable source of intellectual, marketing and monetary support.

There is developing a level of virulent disgust with Firaxis, Infogrames and CivIII on these forums that is really quiet extraordinary. I hope that perhaps you may bring it to your company's attention that this is a situation that needs serious addressing. Before people stop complaining and also stop caring.

Sincerely,

Michel Evanchik

	07-12-2001 13:43									#15
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by MarkG GO DAN, GO! (both hands and feet) [serious] sometimes hints dont work. clear statements like the one you just made are needed instead... [/serious]

Very true.
Hints are often used to lure people thinking that problems/upgrades will be resolved if they just are patient. Sometimes true, sometimes false.
Hints do not suffice, as they are often looked over with suspiscion. Many game companies have changed their general policy these days, the best example being Blizzard, which came straight from making addictive games nearly completely bug-free to making crap full of bugs.
I think that the reactions of many fans come from a fear about Firaxis changing and becoming a money-money company. Well, so far then these fans just show CONCERN about Firaxis
And probably that the previous example of Civ2 which was sold four times fuel the fear that they are considered as milk cows.

But well, acts speak louder than talks. If Firaxis can prove its concern about fans, they will stick with their loyalty.

	07-12-2001 13:43									#16
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Dissident sometimes I think the only way they will be happy is if you post every action you do on the game in a thread here. And when you get up to use the bathroom, you post that too, so people know why you aren't working on the patch

on the designers schedule thing. Good Idea.
Bathroom breaks can come under the heading "personal time". Along with eating and sleeping. No need to clarify those individually. Just as long as they don't amount to more than 2 hours and 20 minutes per day in total there shouldn't be too many complaints.
Sid can have an extra 10 minutes just because, well he's the boss and apparently has a few other designers to kill from time to time (I saw this on Apolyton - posted by MarkG nonetheless so it must be true) - but no more than 10 minutes. Too much time spent on killing designers slowly would probably be detrimental to the Firaxis work ethic.

	07-12-2001 13:46									#17
	Got spare money?

scientist,

the majority of what you describe are issues handled or created by Infogrames. While i will agree that they have an effect on Firaxis, it would not be very clever(in a business way) for them to make a response about these issues instead of Infogrames...

	07-12-2001 13:48									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Dan: I thank you for your frankness. All that I (and many others) have asked is exactly the kind of explanation you gave. The truth is that I felt I needed a provacative title to catch someone's attention so that I could get some kind of reply because time and time again, people's questions about things like the ability to place cities and units or scripting language have gone ignored. It was not the community that hyped up the editor or multiplayer, it was you guys. On your website, you guys were the ones who gave us these teases about scenario-making and multiplayer possibilities. I don't think it was fair to imply things which don't show up in the game and then fail to address what should be expected. I don't question your interest in responding to the fans with regard to Civ 3, but important concerns about scenario-making and multiplayer have gone almost entirely ignored. I understand that this is the first patch and all, but why is it unreasonable to ask why, for instance, were animated units included, but the ability to place cities and units was left out? I'm not trying to be hip at all, (like you point out, what kind of "hip" person is on the computer at 4 in the morning talking about a computer game), but the fact that there are so many of us who have stuck with you guys for a long time who are cynical should give you pause as to why that is. You guys have had a loyal following for many years, and a lack of frankness has miffed many of us. If you don't have plans to make scenario-making possible, say so. If you aren't sure, say so. I apologize for the provacative thread title, and I thank you for responding, but I hope you understand that we want to see your company last and continue to produce good games, and that some morale-building in the civ community wouldn't hurt sales.

	07-12-2001 13:56									#19
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

man some of you guys have really gotta take it easy on these poor firaxians. Dan is here up at 3am responding to some stupid posts because he is dedicated to the game and the fans of the game. They have a million issues to deal with, and are dealing wiht them pretty well, its kinda hard to tell you every detail about everyhting in the future when there's so many things they gotta concentrate on.

look at how often they come on these forums to answer questions and address issues, that's very respectable. Compare these guys with the ctp2 designers, or any other game designers for that matter. I agree taht the game was a bit rushed, but infogrames had an unrealistic deadline from what i heard, so these guys arent to blame.

Now i know a lotta you will say that the more we criticize them and the game, the more they will improve it - true, but you gotta give credit where it is due. And these guys deserve it.

	07-12-2001 14:00									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Mark: If this many of these problems are Infogrames' fault, then Infogrames should respond. So far their only response to the modding community has been a cease and desist order. Firaxis was responsible for making the game, and Infogrames was responsible for distributing it, which people realize. Is it unreasonable to ask the people who made it why they included plenty of flashy (and in many cases unnecessary) graphics but couldn't include scenario-making capabilities out of the box, as they did in Civ 2. Scientist is correct in pointing out the simmering discontent about Civ 3 and Firaxis and Infogrames which would be wise to address. There are many veterans who feel ignored by both Firaxis and Infogrames. There are good reasons why Civ 2 lasted 5 years and there may be good reasons why Civ 3 will last considerably shorter if Firaxis and Infogrames doesn't do something to make us feel good about them.

	07-12-2001 14:09									#21
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Hoek Mark: If this many of these problems are Infogrames' fault, then Infogrames should respond.

excellent. i'd love to see more responses from them as well. meanwhile, your thread title was targeted to firaxis not infogrames...

quote: Is it unreasonable to ask the people who made it why they included plenty of flashy (and in many cases unnecessary) graphics but couldn't include scenario-making capabilities out of the box, as they did in Civ 2.

1st thought: artists dont program. programmers dont make graphics
2nd thought: given a certain release date and certain budget, the first priority on the programmers was most probably to kill bugs, instead of doing a full editor. something that seems to have worked out, since the game has yet to crash on my computer...

	07-12-2001 14:21									#22
	Infogrames vs. Firaxis Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

MarkG:

I've considered the passing the buck issue on problems between Infogrames and Firaxis. Ultimately, both companies have an overriding issue in addressing all issues regarding CivIII because:

a) They both stand to make (or lose) money depending on how well the game sells

b) both of their reputations are at stake.

I would agree that it would not be wise for either company to trash the other. I don't think Firaxis wants to admit that they entered into a lousy relationship with Infogrames, and I don't think Infogrames wants to admit to trashing a potentially great game in final production. I suspect both sides screwed up. What I would like is some intelligent, thoughtful concern from both of these companies. I have seen some of that from Firaxis, none from Infogrames. I'm still waiting for both to step up to the plate and engage in a reasonable dialogue with their customers, not this P.R. crap that they have thrown out here. [Note to Mr Magaha: "we really are committed to this community" counts as P.R. crap, but I guess that's your job.]

I am beginning to have a theory on Civ III: that it was developped in a rush because Dinosaurs was a flop and Firaxis needed something to pay the bills, so they swallowed a bitter pill and decided to produce a hack job called "Sid Meier's Civilization III". It's just a crazy idea. Maybe I'll develop it further as the evidence mounts.

In the mean time, thank god that the patch is going to be addressing all those punctuation errors.

	07-12-2001 14:35									#23
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

[disagree]

quote: excellent. i'd love to see more responses from them as well. meanwhile, your thread title was targeted to firaxis not infogrames...

Yes it was. I give credit for Firaxis at least showing up on the forums, and that is why I titled it like I did. There has been a general lack of responsiveness to many legitimate questions about scenario making and multiplaying capabilities that the Firaxis guys don't ever seem to address despite the teases they give. Now watch me post the same thread addressed to Infogrames with no reply

quote: 1st thought: artists dont program. programmers dont make graphics

No, but project leaders determine how much effort is going to be put into graphics and how much effort is going to be put into programming. It isn't the artists' fault that there's no editor and it's not the programmer's fault either, it's the guy who decided to put a heavy emphasis on graphics and an inadequate emphasis on modification.

quote: 2nd thought: given a certain release date and certain budget, the first priority on the programmers was most probably to kill bugs, instead of doing a full editor. something that seems to have worked out, since the game has yet to crash on my computer...

As I have pointed out, the graphics budget and time could have been used instead to make some basic scenario-making capabilities. An editor was less of a priority than graphics. That's understandable, but it's aggravating to be led to believe that scenario-making will be possible but get no real word indicating that they will eventually allow it.

I am upset about there not being scenario-making and multiplaying capabilities, but I am more upset that questions about them have not been addressed whatsoever.

[/disagree]

[friendly]
I've known you for a while, and I highly respect all you do for the civ community. Maybe Firaxis should consider getting you to be their PR guy with the community since you have a proven track record and would keep alot of us veterans from jumping ship. We need the kind of frankness and honesty that you provide, along with the dedication to the community that you have clearly shown. You know I don't kiss your ass, Mark, but I think you exemplify the right way to handle the community, and I hope that Firaxis can learn something from all you have done.
[/friendly]

	07-12-2001 14:58									#24
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Hoek it's the guy who decided to put a heavy emphasis on graphics and an inadequate emphasis on modification.

can you blame him? here is a small example: what screens do you see on all the reviews? it's always the city view and leader heads, not the editor....

quote: but it's aggravating to be led to believe that scenario-making will be possible but get no real word indicating that they will eventually allow it.

and now firaxis chooses to not make any more promises. even the patch list, whose 70% was fixed for at least 2 weeks(my guess), was posted only 2 days before the final release.


now see an excellent display of PR tactics as i ignore that other part of your post

	07-12-2001 15:05									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Can't wait to see some of the scenarios when you, um, people get everything you want (whatever the hell that is).

So I can mercilessly criticize, belittle, and condemn their creators.

	07-12-2001 15:07									#26
	Put an end to popups!

bwah haha Mark! You just know that you don't have to curry my favor

Do you really believe that the many thousands of people in the civ community care about what some damn magazine says about the game? Hell no! We want to see what fellow apolytoners think. I know that it was for marketing, but that shows right there the failure of this team. If there was one game in history that did not to be marketed through TV ads and geared towards magazine reviews, this is it. It's a cause of concern that a company will spend more effort marketing a mediocre product to a rookie audience instead of establishing good relations with veteran players to sustain a good game.

BTW: didja see my parallel thread? let's see how quiet that becomes!

	07-12-2001 15:09									#27
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Hey Libertarian: why not criticize us now for our civ 2 scenarios? If you would look at what scenario makers can do given the right tools, you would not be so quick to doubt us.

	07-12-2001 15:24									#28
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

You demand perfection from others.

"For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." Jesus (Matthew 7:2)

	07-12-2001 15:26									#29
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Good PR is not an afterthought.

	07-12-2001 15:31									#30
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Yin? PR? It is to laugh. Ha!

Almost singlehandedly, you've managed to cast the whiners in the worst possible light. What do you know of PR?